Marchand Refuses to fight Against Eller

[Oates2Neely]

Ok let's try this. If Tom Wilson wants to fight Danton Heinen, Heinen is totally obliged to since Wilson has more pts and is more of a star than him.

Does that really make sense? Is this really the threshold for when a player is gutless for turning down a fight or is forced to accept one? What is the point differential between players that at which point it becomes the tipping point?

I feel like some are making up the rules as they go and constantly changing them.

You can attempt to word twist all you want to fit your narrative. The fact is Orpik has always been a physical guy who wasn’t shy about dropping gloves. He in now way compares to Marchand or Heinen.

 

[sandysan]

A superstar skill, 5'9 player not fighting a 3rd line 6'2 player. Not such a bad look after all.

He faught him once and when he did he was the one pushing the issue if hes a guy who will fight under his terms and his terms only that by definition makes him a spotpicker

 

[4thline]

A superstar skill, 5'9 player not fighting a 3rd line 6'2 player. Not such a bad look after all.

A Canadian with 15 fights at major junior or above and who knows how many through minor hockey tucks his tail against the Dane with zero true fights that he felt the need to jump in their last meeting

 

[Dr Quincy]

You can attempt to word twist all you want to fit your narrative. The fact is Orpik has always been a physical guy who wasn’t shy about dropping gloves. He in now way compares to Marchand or Heinen.

I'm not trying to fit any narrative. I'm trying to figure out what these rules are.

1 guy who fights occasionally but is a top line player is not obligated to fight a 3rd line player who fights very seldomly. Ok, fine.

But then a top 3 dman who fights occasionally IS obligated to fight a 4th liner whose only job is to fight. Ok, doesn't make sense but sure.

So if Tom Wilson wants to fight Danton Heinen does Heinen have to accept? Not twisting words, trying to figure out your rules.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

You can attempt to word twist all you want to fit your narrative. The fact is Orpik has always been a physical guy who wasn’t shy about dropping gloves. He in now way compares to Marchand or Heinen.

Orpik has never had more than 3 fights in a season. He was actually quite shy of dropping the gloves considering how physical and borderline his play has been throughout his career

 

[Dr Quincy]

A superstar skill, 5'9 player not fighting a 3rd line 6'2 player. Not such a bad look after all.

Can you give me the breakdown of when the "has to accept/doesn't have to accept" line crosses over? Ok, superstar doesn't have to fight 3rd liner.
Does a "good" 1st liner have to fight a "good 2nd liner"? Does a #3 D have to fight a #4?

Are you telling me that if I look at some GDT posts of yours I won't find a single solitary post calling an opposing player a bad name because he refused to fight a Bruins player from a lower part of the roster?

 

[Dr Quincy]

Orpik has never had more than 3 fights in a season. He was actually quite shy of dropping the gloves considering how physical and borderline his play has been throughout his career

And, moreover, my point was simply about relative worth to their teams. Whether Orpik is a star or not isn't the point. Whether he fought before or not isn't the point.

He was a 2nd pairing D on a Cup winner. Saying he is obligated to fight a 4th line goon because he isn't a "star" or something seems just to be semantically splitting hairs.

Either status of the player on the roster matters or it doesn't, and if it doesn't someone who thinks it does matter can give me where the dividing line is.

 

[TD Charlie]

This is still raging on? Whole lotta nothing.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Oh the Capitals are our daddy right now, no doubt. Can't argue with that. Eller is still a bum compared to Marchand.

So you all want accolades in saying a 1st line winger is better than a 3rd line center? That’s what you want?

Well.....duh?

A $100 bill is more valuable than a $50 bill. Doesn’t mean the $50 doesn’t have value, and is a “bum”. You want both.

Least, most everyone does. Wouldn’t you?

 

[Oates2Neely]

I'm not trying to fit any narrative. I'm trying to figure out what these rules are.

1 guy who fights occasionally but is a top line player is not obligated to fight a 3rd line player who fights very seldomly. Ok, fine.

But then a top 3 dman who fights occasionally IS obligated to fight a 4th liner whose only job is to fight. Ok, doesn't make sense but sure.

So if Tom Wilson wants to fight Danton Heinen does Heinen have to accept? Not twisting words, trying to figure out your rules.

First off I think Marchand would’ve been stupid to fight at that point in the game. In my opinion a top line player (Marchand McDavid P.Kane Ovechkin) shouldn’t have to ever fight anyone, but if they do it should be another top line player.

Orpik has always fought. Would he have be n in over his head fighting Thornton? Yes. But it’s not like Orpik was Paul Coffey. The guys was known for laying massive hits and fighting. Except he’d only fight guys he felt confident he could handle.

Wilson is a bad example. He’s as much a top line player as Lucic was when he was a Bruin. Didn’t mean Lucic could go picking fights with Heinen type players. Same for Wilson.

I hear what you’re saying, Marchand is certainly a punk and most times deserves what he receives. You just don’t have a leg to stand on here. Eller is by no means a fighter, but Marchand shouldn’t have to fight anyone who isn’t as important to there team as he is to Boston. 5 minutes is a long time for a top flight winger to be seated. Eller is a scrub

 

[Number8]

You're still buying into this, huh?

The only code in the league actually seems to be whichever version is convenient for folk like you and players like Marchand on any given day.

I’m not saying there’s any foolish code.

Eller showed up B’s bench during blowout. Eller got his ass kicked as a direct result. No code, just simple facts.

You don’t like it? Who cares? Really...... who cares if people are upset because Eller didn’t get a chance to redeem his pride?

 

[stampedingviking]

If you are 6'2 and cannot beat up a 5'9 skill player the first time, there is no reason to try a second time.

The rat jumped him and didn't give him much of a chance.

Now the opposite should have happened, Eller should have jumped him and beat the snot out of him. Wouldn't be singing the same song as when marchand did it, would you?

Marchand is brave when the opposing player is not ready or has his back to him but won't man up for a fight when the other player's ready.

 

[Oates2Neely]

And, moreover, my point was simply about relative worth to their teams. Whether Orpik is a star or not isn't the point. Whether he fought before or not isn't the point.

He was a 2nd pairing D on a Cup winner. Saying he is obligated to fight a 4th line goon because he isn't a "star" or something seems just to be semantically splitting hairs.

Either status of the player on the roster matters or it doesn't, and if it doesn't someone who thinks it does matter can give me where the dividing line is.

You’re caught up in labeling players “2nd pairing,, top line”. Johnny Boychuk was a 2nd pairing dman on a Cup winning team I don’t think that label gave him the right to go at Patrick Kane or the Mitch Marners of the world.

Marchand is a top 10 (if not top 5) LW in the NHL. Eller is a journeyman forward. Orpik was a physical dman who made his name laying out huge hits at the blue line. How the two are compatible in your opinion makes no sense to me

 

[Number8]

But forcing the issue is okay if you are Marchand who, coincidentally, is thyeonly one in the league who gets to decide not to settle in what would have been a much fairer fight.

Your 20 minute a game star is ducking lars freaking eller. Rationalize it all you like, that's still a very bad look.

He doesn’t have to fight Eller again. This is NOT some eighties tough guy series of fights.

Eller tried to show up Boston when Caps were already well and truly kicking their ass on the scoreboard. Marchand beat crap out of Eller as a direct result.

Lesson 1). Act like an idiot in a blowout game, be prepared to eat a few punches.

Lesson 2). If your pride is hurt as a result of Lesson 1, no one cares and no one owes you a chance to restore your fragile pride or ego. Underscores importance of lesson 1 and not repeating that.

Seriously..... does anyone here truly think Marchand is afraid Lars Eller? Don’t let your hatred of Marchand distort your grip on reality. No one in the NHL is afraid of squaring off with Lars Eller.

 

[easton117]

And, moreover, my point was simply about relative worth to their teams. Whether Orpik is a star or not isn't the point. Whether he fought before or not isn't the point.

He was a 2nd pairing D on a Cup winner. Saying he is obligated to fight a 4th line goon because he isn't a "star" or something seems just to be semantically splitting hairs.

Either status of the player on the roster matters or it doesn't, and if it doesn't someone who thinks it does matter can give me where the dividing line is.

I don’t really think player status matters. Players actions certainly do. If Heinen did a flyby across the Washington bench in a 7-0 route I’d probably advise him to keep his head up the next time they play for sure.

You just don’t show up teams in hockey. Ever. Hell you don’t do it in any sport where someone can remind you of what you did.

As for Marchand and this thread. If people haven’t figured out by now he couldn’t give two shits about how people see him they never will.

 

[Beantown Beatdown]

This is still raging on? Whole lotta nothing.

It’s incredible how much time people spend concerning themselves with Marchand. He gets under people’s skin so easily. Like you said, this is literally a nothing situation and something that happens quite frequently but because it’s Marchand it turns into a 30 page thread with a thousand replies. It’s pretty comical.

 

[Number8]

The rat jumped him and didn't give him much of a chance.

Now the opposite should have happened, Eller should have jumped him and beat the snot out of him. Wouldn't be singing the same song as when marchand did it, would you?

Marchand is brave when the opposing player is not ready or has his back to him but won't man up for a fight when the other player's ready.

You just don’t get it. Truly, you are missing the plot.

The first Marchand Eller incident was not about fighting, code, toughness, bravery or any other of that BS.

Eller showed up Boston bench in a blowout. Marchand fairly or unfairly (who cares) made him immediately regret that foolish act.

Eller was a tool and paid a price. I’m glad it’s still renting space in his head. Probably means he won’t do what started all of this ever again, which is a good thing.

Marchand did the League, and Lars Eller, a favor. I’m sure he says “you’re welcome” to all of you.

 

[Hunter368]

Not a fan of either team, but why would a star fight a depth player for no reason? Smart move by Brad.....

 

[Dr Quincy]

First off I think Marchand would’ve been stupid to fight at that point in the game. In my opinion a top line player (Marchand McDavid P.Kane Ovechkin) shouldn’t have to ever fight anyone, but if they do it should be another top line player.

Orpik has always fought. Would he have be n in over his head fighting Thornton? Yes. But it’s not like Orpik was Paul Coffey. The guys was known for laying massive hits and fighting. Except he’d only fight guys he felt confident he could handle.

Wilson is a bad example. He’s as much a top line player as Lucic was when he was a Bruin. Didn’t mean Lucic could go picking fights with Heinen type players. Same for Wilson.

I hear what you’re saying, Marchand is certainly a punk and most times deserves what he receives. You just don’t have a leg to stand on here. Eller is by no means a fighter, but Marchand shouldn’t have to fight anyone who isn’t as important to there team as he is to Boston. 5 minutes is a long time for a top flight winger to be seated. Eller is a scrub

I completely agree with the bolded. 100%. I'm just saying that this should go both ways. No opposing player should have to fight anyone, but especially they shouldn't have to fight someone who isn't as important.

But your Orpik thing is misleading. Whether Orpik fights other people or not shouldn't be an issue IMO. He gave a hit that was ugly, but clean. Why should he have to fight a 4th line scrub just because that 4th line scrub wants to send a message? And I'm not using this example to defend Orpik particularly, but because he illustrates the greater point:

Fans of ALL teams (not at all specific to Bruins fans, which is what some people here want to say) change the rules and the arithmetic depending on what's happening to their team. If they want vengenance then they really don't care one bit about player's worth to the other team, who is a star, who has more fights or anything else. They want revenge and if the offender doesn't oblige, then he's a gutless punk.

Yet when it's their guy challenge there becomes all of these other fine points could fit on the head of a needle: "Well the score was 1-0" or "But he's an inch taller" or "But this guy is a 1st liner and that guy is a 3rd liner". I mean you can find all sorts of rationale why a guy is ok to turn down a challenge, but the point is a fan isn't going to go through the same mental gymnastics when it's someone on the other team.

 

[jgatie]

Seriously, other sports don't need ridiculous codes, they just have rules.

Other sports don't have codes? Try bunting, showboating a homerun, or stealing a base in a 10-0 blowout in baseball. The next pitch you see will be coming at your ear.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Other sports don't have codes? Try bunting, showboating a homerun, or stealing a base in a 10-0 blowout in baseball. The next pitch you see will be coming at your ear.

Paraphrasing another poster:

Lesson 1: Don't get down 10-0
Lesson 2: If you get upset when someone bunts when leading 10-0, see Lesson 1.

 

[sandysan]

He doesn’t have to fight Eller again. This is NOT some eighties tough guy series of fights.

Eller tried to show up Boston when Caps were already well and truly kicking their ass on the scoreboard. Marchand beat crap out of Eller as a direct result.

Lesson 1). Act like an idiot in a blowout game, be prepared to eat a few punches.

Lesson 2). If your pride is hurt as a result of Lesson 1, no one cares and no one owes you a chance to restore your fragile pride or ego. Underscores importance of lesson 1 and not repeating that.

Seriously..... does anyone here truly think Marchand is afraid Lars Eller? Don’t let your hatred of Marchand distort your grip on reality. No one in the NHL is afraid of squaring off with Lars Eller.

When he was cowering on the ice with his gloved hands covering his head while lars eller stood, gloveless and willing, what prey tell, is the more appropriate interpretation? That he was looking for a lost contact?

Guy gets the jump on a player and bests him. Given the opportunity to settle with the same player who is this time willing,if he declines he's a coward or a spot picker.

Again, your choice.

 

[jgatie]

Paraphrasing another poster:

Lesson 1: Don't get down 10-0
Lesson 2: If you get upset when someone bunts when leading 10-0, see Lesson 1.

We all know your stance on fighting, Dr. Quincy. It would be pretty stupid of me to argue the justifications for something you think should be outlawed from the game, huh? It's like arguing religious doctrine with an atheist.

Sorry, I'll not bite.

 

[Oates2Neely]

I completely agree with the bolded. 100%. I'm just saying that this should go both ways. No opposing player should have to fight anyone, but especially they shouldn't have to fight someone who isn't as important.

But your Orpik thing is misleading. Whether Orpik fights other people or not shouldn't be an issue IMO. He gave a hit that was ugly, but clean. Why should he have to fight a 4th line scrub just because that 4th line scrub wants to send a message? And I'm not using this example to defend Orpik particularly, but because he illustrates the greater point:

Fans of ALL teams (not at all specific to Bruins fans, which is what some people here want to say) change the rules and the arithmetic depending on what's happening to their team. If they want vengenance then they really don't care one bit about player's worth to the other team, who is a star, who has more fights or anything else. They want revenge and if the offender doesn't oblige, then he's a gutless punk.

Yet when it's their guy challenge there becomes all of these other fine points could fit on the head of a needle: "Well the score was 1-0" or "But he's an inch taller" or "But this guy is a 1st liner and that guy is a 3rd liner". I mean you can find all sorts of rationale why a guy is ok to turn down a challenge, but the point is a fan isn't going to go through the same mental gymnastics when it's someone on the other team.

Good post. I just think Thornton vs Orpik was far less a mismatch (talent wise) than Eller & Marchand. I do agree, Orpik shouldn’t have had to fight Thornton.

 

[BlackFrancis]

I completely agree with the bolded. 100%. I'm just saying that this should go both ways. No opposing player should have to fight anyone, but especially they shouldn't have to fight someone who isn't as important.

But your Orpik thing is misleading. Whether Orpik fights other people or not shouldn't be an issue IMO. He gave a hit that was ugly, but clean. Why should he have to fight a 4th line scrub just because that 4th line scrub wants to send a message? And I'm not using this example to defend Orpik particularly, but because he illustrates the greater point:

Fans of ALL teams (not at all specific to Bruins fans, which is what some people here want to say) change the rules and the arithmetic depending on what's happening to their team. If they want vengenance then they really don't care one bit about player's worth to the other team, who is a star, who has more fights or anything else. They want revenge and if the offender doesn't oblige, then he's a gutless punk.

Yet when it's their guy challenge there becomes all of these other fine points could fit on the head of a needle: "Well the score was 1-0" or "But he's an inch taller" or "But this guy is a 1st liner and that guy is a 3rd liner". I mean you can find all sorts of rationale why a guy is ok to turn down a challenge, but the point is a fan isn't going to go through the same mental gymnastics when it's someone on the other team.

Next thing you know, these unenlightened fans will be talking up their own players, using things like "leadership" or "intangibles", while dismissing fans of other teams when they do the same for their players.

Hockey fan anarchy, I tell ya.