Speculation: Maple Leafs Management Discussion/Speculation Thread

[Christ]

to me - it seems that Nonis is the kind of person who needs to hold his hand. ie: he's great as a agm because he can do his thing and it usually works out as a gm - not so much

so if Dubas and Shanahan are his hand holders and he can fix some of the mess that's fine.

Nonis also makes a convenient fall guy should things not turn out as Shanny and Dubas plan...

 

[Stats01]

The job of president is a figurehead. It's his job to hire a GM to oversee the hockey operations and staff. You can't have a GM that doesn't get to pick his own staff, and expect to be successful.

If Shanny wants to be GM and start making these calls, that's fine. Fire Nonis, name yourself GM, and be done with it. These kind of moves are how you build a totally ineffective organization (like JFJ-Peddie) where the GM doesn't have the power to execute his vision for a successful team.

You say we can't have a GM that doesn't get to pick his own staff...yet we have exactly that. Nonis didn't fire his assistants and didn't pick Dubas..I'll bet my house on that. Dubas is a man who uses analytics and has a very smart and modern way of looking at things, you think Nonis said "hmmm ok I'll fire my two assistants and bring in someone who preaches a model that I don't like or use." Shanahan was the one who fired the two assistants and pretty much told Nonis that he was hiring Dubas. If you think this is not the right way to do things I don't know what to tell you but it's quite apparent that Nonis has literally no power right now. He hasn't been fired yet because he will be the fall guy if things go south in a hurry next season. Both Carlyle and Nonis won't be here long.

 

[Kubus]

Nonis also makes a convenient fall guy should things not turn out as Shanny and Dubas plan...

He might for this year, if it goes up in flames, but not after that. This season is still on Nonis, but as trade deadline approaches all will start to be responsible.

 

[seanlinden]

You say we can't have a GM that doesn't get to pick his own staff...yet we have exactly that. Nonis didn't fire his assistants and didn't pick Dubas..I'll bet my house on that. Dubas is a man who uses analytics and has a very smart and modern way of looking at things, you think Nonis said "hmmm ok I'll fire my two assistants and bring in someone who preaches a model that I don't like or use." Shanahan was the one who fired the two assistants and pretty much told Nonis that he was hiring Dubas. If you think this is not the right way to do things I don't know what to tell you but it's quite apparent that Nonis has literally no power right now. He hasn't been fired yet because he will be the fall guy if things go south in a hurry next season. Both Carlyle and Nonis won't be here long.

You're absolutely right, and that's the problem. A team can only set itself further back by having a "lame duck" manager.

Like I mentioned, the only way to build a successful team in a salary cap world is to have a vision, and see it through. That vision has to come from the GM; who hires the assistants he thinks he needs, the coach he thinks he needs, who in turn hires the assistant coaches he thinks he needs.

This whole "fall guy" thing is exactly the problem. We're thinking about losing, before we've actually done so.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Is there a way to rank GM's moves based on player production ?
Overpaying Phaneuf and Clarkson seem like fatal mistakes that will hurt the Leafs for years.
Surely that must look bad on Nonis.

 

[Drew75]

People don't seem to realize that the biggest change we've seen thus far from Shanny is the end of 'knee-jerk' reactions.

If they fired Nonis today - who would replace him? There is a very limited number of available candidates, and none would necessarily be better than Nonis at the moment. Firing him now would be a change for the sake of change.

Shanny will wait until the right coach and GM are available - and then - and only then - will he make a change.

 

[Kubus]

Is there a way to rank GM's moves based on player production ?
Overpaying Phaneuf and Clarkson seem like fatal mistakes that will hurt the Leafs for years.
Surely that must look bad on Nonis.

Clarkson is a bad move. As for Dion I don't know if it's an overpayment. Let's not forget he is not coming off of his ECL, he has no RFA years, you can't do a back diving deal with him. Yes, I would like to have seen a lower cap hit, but how much lower could it really be? We really have to understand that it's a new CBA and a new, higher, cap. The new CBA really changed the market for UFA.

At the very worst if Dion is overpaid it's by a 1 per year, and that's not a big issue for a top pairing D. And yes, he is a top pairing D.

 

[hotpaws]

Nonis being invisible since the firings/hiring pretty much says it all , it feels like his days are numbered.

It looks like Shanny is running the team day to day and regardless of titles it feels like he's the GM and is starting to surround himself with asst mang he's comfortable/confident in . I think best case scenario would be to dump Nonis and pick up an experienced front office person to help balance inexperience of Shanny/Dubie.

 

[diceman934]

Clarkson is a bad move. As for Dion I don't know if it's an overpayment. Let's not forget he is not coming off of his ECL, he has no RFA years, you can't do a back diving deal with him. Yes, I would like to have seen a lower cap hit, but how much lower could it really be? We really have to understand that it's a new CBA and a new, higher, cap. The new CBA really changed the market for UFA.

At the very worst if Dion is overpaid it's by a 1 per year, and that's not a big issue for a top pairing D. And yes, he is a top pairing D.

I would think everyone now understands that Nonis is not the GM....he is a person who works under Shanny. It is Shanny that has been making all the decisions as it should be if you come into an organization with a GM that you did not select or hire and seen the contracts handed out. We would not have Clarkson nor Dion here I believe if Shanny was here prior to those decisions.

Clarkson's contract is the worse in the NHL as it is a contract that that you save almost nothing if you buy him out, no one will take this contract in a trade unless we attach a very good player to it or a #1 draft pick as well as retain salary.

Dion's contract is a over payment in both salary and term, in my opinion he is not nor has he ever been a top D man yet he is paid like he is elite and for 7 years. I just love the fact that people say well in a few years this 7M per will be a good deal, but that is so wrong....in a few year Dion will not be the D man he is now....he is starting to slow down and the speed of the game is making Dion look bad now so it even worse in 3 years.

In Summary I think that Shanny has been told to keep Nonis around while Shanny learns the ropes and then once all are comfortable that Shanny has learned everything that a GM does, he can let him go, and at that time he will hire his own GM.....end of this current season Nonis is gone.

 

[Kubus]

Nonis being invisible since the firings/hiring pretty much says it all , it feels like his days are numbered.

Just maybe the guy went fishin'

You know people do take vacations or some time off. Also in business often you see someone just because they are around. It doesn't mean they are the ones making all the calls. And you know emails, phones, internet and such.

If Shanahan kept Nonis, but is now making all the decisions then that scares the F out of me. Competent people work with others, they do not set up others for failure. The best think for the organization is to have a group of people that bring something different to the table, but still work well together. Even if one of those people is going to be the face.

 

[seanlinden]

People don't seem to realize that the biggest change we've seen thus far from Shanny is the end of 'knee-jerk' reactions.

If they fired Nonis today - who would replace him? There is a very limited number of available candidates, and none would necessarily be better than Nonis at the moment. Firing him now would be a change for the sake of change.

Shanny will wait until the right coach and GM are available - and then - and only then - will he make a change.

Really?!

They fired 2 extremely reputable assistant GM's, and hired a replacement with extremely little in the way of qualifications. They fired the entire assistant coaching staff, and again brought in individuals who don't have much in the way of qualifications.

If Shanny felt that Nonis was the best GM available to him, then he should've done nothing. If Shanny felt that he was a better GM than Nonis (seems like it based on the moves), then he should've appointed himself.

 

[Kubus]

Dion's contract is a over payment in both salary and term, in my opinion he is not nor has he ever been a top D man yet he is paid like he is elite and for 7 years.

LOL. Who said he was a top D?

As for his salary, I think things will start to clear up for you as new UFA start to sign contract under the new CBA. The only person I consider comparable to Dion that signed under the new CBA is Letang, and it's a very similar salary. Sorry but it's ignorant to compare guys with back diving deals or right off of ECL contracts to this.

At most what you are crying about is 1mil per year. Not a big deal, especially with the cap going up. But sure I'll give you the term.

In Summary I think that Shanny has been told to keep Nonis around while Shanny learns the ropes and then once all are comfortable that Shanny has learned everything that a GM does, he can let him go, and at that time he will hire his own GM.....end of this current season Nonis is gone.

If that is the case Shanahan should be fired NOW. Only a complete fool would keep someone around that he wants to fire, or thinks that person isn't up to the job. It's one thing to make a mistake with a hire, it's a whole different issue keeping someone you don't think is competent around. Just like any other GM Nonis can be fired, but I think if Shanahan kept him around it's for a good reason, not something as stupid as to "learn the ropes."

So you think Shanahan is going to try and bring in a new GM soon? And tell him what exactly?

Shanahan to new GM "Just to be clear I'm in charge. Yes, Nonis was fired even though I made all the decisions. Oh, and sorry you don't get to bring in your own staff. "


I actually have faith that Shanahan is a bright guy and not a fool, and that he kept Nonis around because he believes Nonis brings something good to the table.

 

[stanleyorbust]

Really?!

They fired 2 extremely reputable assistant GM's, and hired a replacement with extremely little in the way of qualifications. They fired the entire assistant coaching staff, and again brought in individuals who don't have much in the way of qualifications.

If Shanny felt that Nonis was the best GM available to him, then he should've done nothing. If Shanny felt that he was a better GM than Nonis (seems like it based on the moves), then he should've appointed himself.

Have you ever been a manager Sean?

Just because you are a manager, doesn't mean you don't have a boss who makes decisions above and below your role. Nonis is the GM but hes not the only person making the calls on player movements, contracts, salary cap management, coaching decisions etc. There are higher ups, and share holders to answer too in most teams around the NHL.

Shanny made it clear he was going to shake up this team in the off-season. We all assumed he meant that meant player movements, however its also included replacing the assistant coaching staff and moving out some of the assistant GM's who were not embracing the change in the game. How do you know that Nonis didn't support those moves? Even if it wasn't his call.. hes the GM, not the owner or president.

 

[hotpaws]

Just maybe the guy went fishin'

You know people do take vacations or some time off. Also in business often you see someone just because they are around. It doesn't mean they are the ones making all the calls. And you know emails, phones, internet and such.

If Shanahan kept Nonis, but is now making all the decisions then that scares the F out of me. Competent people work with others, they do not set up others for failure. The best think for the organization is to have a group of people that bring something different to the table, but still work well together. Even if one of those people is going to be the face.

if this was a Nonis move and not a Shanahan one then wouldn't he have fired his asst's at the end of the season ?

why would BS making having the final say scare the **** out of you ? What has DN and his predecessor done that has set up this team for success for the future ?

 

[leburn98]

if this was a Nonis move and not a Shanahan one then wouldn't he have fired his asst's at the end of the season ?

Not saying Nonis did the firing and hiring of his assts, but wouldn't it make more sense for a GM to wait it out a bit to see what other teams are doing around the league. It's not out of the realm of possibility to believe that Nonis waited a few weeks, realized no one of significance was being made available, therefore looked internally instead. You could also argue that the Spott hiring last season was all part of his plan if things went south.

 

[diceman934]

LOL. Who said he was a top D?

As for his salary, I think things will start to clear up for you as new UFA start to sign contract under the new CBA. The only person I consider comparable to Dion that signed under the new CBA is Letang, and it's a very similar salary. Sorry but it's ignorant to compare guys with back diving deals or right off of ECL contracts to this.

At most what you are crying about is 1mil per year. Not a big deal, especially with the cap going up. But sure I'll give you the term.




If that is the case Shanahan should be fired NOW. Only a complete fool would keep someone around that he wants to fire, or thinks that person isn't up to the job. It's one thing to make a mistake with a hire, it's a whole different issue keeping someone you don't think is competent around. Just like any other GM Nonis can be fired, but I think if Shanahan kept him around it's for a good reason, not something as stupid as to learn the ropes.

So you think Shanahan is going to try and bring in a new GM soon? And what tell him what exactly?

Shanahan to new GM "Just to be clear I'm in charge. Yes, Nonis was fired even though I made all the decisions. Oh, and sorry you don't get to bring in your own staff. "


I actually have faith that Shanahan is a bright guy and not a fool, and that he kept Nonis around because he believes Nonis bring something good to the table.

Dion's cap hit clearly says that he is a top D man. As well the cap hit is in my opinion 2 per to high. If he was signed to a 5 year 6M per deal that would be at value....we gave him 7 years at 7M per which is way to high and for to long.

Shanny us keeping him around for his experience. ..and if that makes Shanny a fool in your eyes, then I say you need to look harder. Does Shanty have any experience running a team? No...He fired the other assistant GM as they were redundant when he hired his own. Nonis is a tool for Shanny to learn from he will be allowed to negotiate trades and contracts but will not have the final say at all. Shanny will listen to his opinion and make his own decision. Nonis now has a person who thinks big picture and will only be effectively an assistant GM.

 

[Durrr]

Really?!

They fired 2 extremely reputable assistant GM's, and hired a replacement with extremely little in the way of qualifications. They fired the entire assistant coaching staff, and again brought in individuals who don't have much in the way of qualifications.

If Shanny felt that Nonis was the best GM available to him, then he should've done nothing. If Shanny felt that he was a better GM than Nonis (seems like it based on the moves), then he should've appointed himself.

lol sure bud. It's on record that Shanny wasnt going to fire the assistant Gm's this season, but was forced to do it when another club was in talks with Dubas about a job. Shanny very much may think Dubas is the GM of the future, and putting him in an assistant role to prep him is exactly the right move (even if he doesn't, still a great move).

As for the assistant coaches, not sure if your joking? Just because you haven't heard of people and their "qualifications", doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Blufreezy]

I don't think i see nonis bein let go if we suck tbis year. Carlyle though yes

 

[hotpaws]

Not saying Nonis did the firing and hiring of his assts, but wouldn't it make more sense for a GM to wait it out a bit to see what other teams are doing around the league. It's not out of the realm of possibility to believe that Nonis waited a few weeks, realized no one of significance was being made available, therefore looked internally instead. You could also argue that the Spott hiring last season was all part of his plan if things went south.

The discussion was about the ass't gm's not the ass't coach's and my point was if it was DN's decisions to change agm's he would have let go of Poulin/Loisell at the end of the season or shortly .

It doesn't make sense to keep agm's (who are basically just advisers) you have lost faith in while you'll hoping/waiting to see if some one better comes along .

 

[Kubus]

Dion's cap hit clearly says that he is a top D man. As well the cap hit is in my opinion 2 per to high. If he was signed to a 5 year 6M per deal that would be at value....we gave him 7 years at 7M per which is way to high and for to long.

In comparison to whom? Please let me know. Really look at what you are comparing. Are you comparing guys off of ELC? Back diving deals? Old guys signing retirement deals?

Like I said Letang is the best comparison. About the same level of player. He got about the same deal. Dion would easily get the money on the open market as a UFA.

A little overpaid sure. But not something to keep on crying about.

Shanny us keeping him around for his experience. ..and if that makes Shanny a fool in your eyes, then I say you need to look harder. Does Shanty have any experience running a team? No...He fired the other assistant GM as they were redundant when he hired his own. Nonis is a tool for Shanny to learn from he will be allowed to negotiate trades and contracts but will not have the final say at all. Shanny will listen to his opinion and make his own decision. Nonis now has a person who thinks big picture and will only be effectively an assistant GM.

Fist of that is not what you originally said. You said "In Summary I think that Shanny has been told to keep Nonis around while Shanny learns the ropes and then once all are comfortable that Shanny has learned everything that a GM does, he can let him go, and at that time he will hire his own GM", and this is ridiculous.


What you suggested is that Nonis is only around for because of his experience, like it's really that hard to find.

what you were suggesting is that Shanahan decided to "learn the ropes" form a guy he thinks is incompetent, and can't wait to replace with his own GM? Who again won't be a GM because Shanahan will still be running the show.

If that is the case at all, Shanahan is a complete idiot, I mean why would he want to learn from someone he doesn't think is good at his job? There are plenty of other assistant GMs or ex GMs that have lots of experience that Shanahan could "learn the ropes" from.

No, he kept Nonis because he believes that he adds to the team. That's it. Not some stupid reason like to "learn the ropes" from someone he doesn't trust is good at what he does. That would be stupidity at it's finest.

 

[hotpaws]

lol sure bud. It's on record that Shanny wasnt going to fire the assistant Gm's this season, but was forced to do it when another club was in talks with Dubas about a job. Shanny very much may think Dubas is the GM of the future, and putting him in an assistant role to prep him is exactly the right move (even if he doesn't, still a great move).

As for the assistant coaches, not sure if your joking? Just because you haven't heard of people and their "qualifications", doesn't mean they don't exist.

Shanny didn't have to fire the agm's when he hired Dumas and the only thing on record is rumors of other teams being potentially being interested Dumas .

 

[Kubus]

why would BS making having the final say scare the **** out of you ? What has DN and his predecessor done that has set up this team for success for the future ?

It was suggested that BS kept Nonis as a scapegoat. That is not something competent people do. If he didn't think Nonis was up to the task or that he added something to the team, and he kept him, then you have to question the intelligence of the man running the Leafs.

First of all, I don't believe that to be the case. But lets say it is. Doesn't that idea not scare you?

 

[diceman934]

Fist of that is not what you originally said. You said "In Summary I think that Shanny has been told to keep Nonis around while Shanny learns the ropes and then once all are comfortable that Shanny has learned everything that a GM does, he can let him go, and at that time he will hire his own GM", and this is ridiculous.


What you suggested is that Nonis is only around for because of his experience, like it's really that hard to find.

what you were suggesting is that Shanahan decided to "learn the ropes" form a guy he thinks is incompetent, and can't wait to replace with his own GM? Who again won't be a GM because Shanahan will still be running the show.

If that is the case at all, Shanahan is a complete idiot, I mean why would he want to learn from someone he doesn't think is good at his job? There are plenty of other assistant GMs or ex GMs that have lots of experience that Shanahan could "learn the ropes" from.

No, he kept Nonis because he believes that he adds to the team. That's it. Not some stupid reason like to "learn the ropes" from someone he doesn't trust is good at what he does.

Really? I said the exact same thing twice only using different words. I said that Shanny us keeping Nonis around to gain experience from him. He is making all the player personal decisions it appears he most certainly fired the assistant GM'S and hired his own. Remember Nonis is on record stating he does not put a lot of value in analysis stats. My opinion is based on what has been seen...Nonis two assistant GM are gone...it was clearly not his idea.

I never ever said that Shanny thinks that Nonis is stupid...He may think that he is not a great at contract negotiations. . He can learn many things from Nonis still about the ins and outs of running a team still.

I still think that Nonis is gone by the start of the 2015 season. By then Shanny will have a good handle of what a good GM looks like to him.

The Dion stuff I will leave for his own thread ..but will say I stand behind my opinion that his contract clearly puts him as a elite player.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Usually a head coach firing precedes a GM, but that wasn't the case in Pittsburgh, so who knows.

Nonis went to bat for Carlyle, so it would make sense that their futures are now tired together.

 

[Kubus]

Really? I said the exact same thing twice only using different words. I said that Shanny us keeping Nonis around to gain experience from him. He is making all the player personal decisions it appears he most certainly fired the assistant GM'S and hired his own. Remember Nonis is on record stating he does not put a lot of value in analysis stats. My opinion is based on what has been seen...Nonis two assistant GM are gone...it was clearly not his idea.

You didn't say the exact same thing twice. Those different words put different meaning behind what you said. In one case Nonis is helping in one case he was a lame duck. But let's not get into semantics.

As for Nonis saying he doesn't trust stats, when was that? Wasn't in winter when he was defending his team for being outshot every night, while they were in a playoff spot. What did you really expect him to say? Oh, yeah, we have been luck so far, and I'm going to make moves to address those stats. Nonis said what he had to on the spot so lets not take it out of context. I bet he does believe in save %, face-off %, etc and those are stats.

And why is it not clearly Nonis' idea to replace the assistant? What evidence do you actually have. At most you have speculation. One thing that is a fact is that Nonis got stuck with them when Burke got fired a few weeks before the season, and he kept them after they made the playoffs. We really don't know how much Nonis wanted them here so let's not pretend.

I never ever said that Shanny thinks that Nonis is stupid...He may think that he is not a great at contract negotiations. . He can learn many things from Nonis still about the ins and outs of running a team still.

But if Nonis is good at things, and adds to the team, why would BS want to replace him. Wouldn't it be a good idea to just get rid of him before he negotiates another bad contract? Shanahan must have more faith in him.

I still think that Nonis is gone by the start of the 2015 season. By then Shanny will have a good handle of what a good GM looks like to him.

Again there is no smart decision to keep Nonis on if that is the case, he might as well bring in someone he trust to help. You suggest that Shanahan knows what a good assistant GM looks like(according to you he fired and hired the new one) but not a GM? That argument doesn't make sense. Either Shanahan knows what he wants or he doesn't.

If Nonis is still here it will have lots to do with the season, but not because Shanahan already has a plan to replace him.