Speculation: Maple Leafs Management Discussion/Speculation Thread

[diceman934]

You didn't say the exact same thing twice. Those different words put different meaning behind what you said. In one case Nonis is helping in one case he was a lame duck. But let's not get into semantics.

As for Nonis saying he doesn't trust stats, when was that? Wasn't in winter when he was defending his team for being outshot every night, while they were in a playoff spot. What did you really expect him to say? Oh, yeah, we have been luck so far, and I'm going to make moves to address those stats. Nonis said what he had to on the spot so lets not take it out of context. I bet he does believe in save %, face-off %, etc and those are stats.

And why is it not clearly Nonis' idea to replace the assistant? What evidence do you actually have. At most you have speculation. One thing that is a fact is that Nonis got stuck with them when Burke got fired a few weeks before the season, and he kept them after they made the playoffs. We really don't know how much Nonis wanted them here so let's not pretend.



But if Nonis is good at things, and adds to the team, why would BS want to replace him. Wouldn't it be a good idea to just get rid of him before he negotiates another bad contract? Shanahan must have more faith in him.






Again there is no smart decision to keep Nonis on if that is the case, he might as well bring in someone he trust to help. You suggest that Shanahan knows what a good assistant GM looks like(according to you he fired and hired the new one) but not a GM? That argument doesn't make sense. Either Shanahan knows what he wants or he doesn't.

If Nonis is still here it will have lots to do with the season, but not because Shanahan already has a plan to replace him.

In each post I clearly indicated the same reason why Nonis was still here....to learn from....

He may have hired his GM already but again they together lack experience and are going to learn things from Nonis before they let him go....if Nonis is not allowed to make decisions there is no harm in getting some value from his contract by keeping him around and learning some of the in's and outs of running an NHL team. This is good business by the way. I suggested that after the learning curve that Shanny would know what a good GM looks like so please do not put words in my mouth...

Nonis did not have Shanny to be his boss and the assistant GM stayed.....Shanny comes on board and they are fired.....Shanny also was the one who announce the hiring on the new assistant GM....it is plain common sense as to who did what and why!

 

[Kubus]

In each post I clearly indicated the same reason why Nonis was still here....to learn from....

He may have hired his GM already but again they together lack experience and are going to learn things from Nonis before they let him go....if Nonis is not allowed to make decisions there is no harm in getting some value from his contract by keeping him around and learning some of the in's and outs of running an NHL team. This is good business by the way. I suggested that after the learning curve that Shanny would know what a good GM looks like so please do not put words in my mouth...

Nonis did not have Shanny to be his boss and the assistant GM stayed.....Shanny comes on board and they are fired.....Shanny also was the one who announce the hiring on the new assistant GM....it is plain common sense as to who did what and why!

Sorry but trying to learn the job form someone you don't trust to do it is idiotic at best. It's really that simple. Explain to me how and what Shanahan is learning from Nonis if he is not good at his job, or not doing it at all as you suggest because Shanahan is making all the calls? What are these in's and outs? Either Nonis is doing his job, looking for players, looking for trades, on the phones, signing guys or there is nothing to learn from.

If Shanahan is making all the calls why would he bring in his own GM later on? That makes no sense at all. Seriously these little conspiracy theories.

I'm sure Shanahan has input on decisions, he is the final sign off, but he is not keeping Nonis around to get him coffee. He is keeping Nonis around because he believes Nonis has value and is competent at his job.

If Shanahan wanted Nonis gone he would already be, he would not risk a whole year. What happens if the Leafs turn things around? What then? All of a sudden he would be stuck with Nonis, not this other GM.

Yes, if this season goes poorly Nonis is probably gone, but it will have more to do with the season than some grand plan Shanahan has to replace him, while really doing the job and making all the calls all along.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Nonis again, has this team working from a disadvantage. The Gleason buyout and Gunnar taking back salary will have us 2M in the hole next season. Just when we cleared the books with Armstrong, Frattin, Scrivens and Tucker. He has us back working under the cap.

Nonis again, has proven he cannot successfully manipulate a cap. It's one of the 2 biggest beefs I have with this GM. The other is we have never picked in the 2nd rd with him as a GM, we don't have next year's 2nd rd pick either. 2nd rd picks though not as important as 1st rd picks can be a franchise turner, ask Boston.

Nonis seems to me, is on borrowed time, his erratic performance has me seeing why Vancouver replaced him years ago. His time may be up soon.

 

[CellarDweller0]

I personally think that Nonis is gone. Him not being around for the announcement of the new assistant GM is awkward and it just feels like he no longer has his fingerprints on the deals we saw since the draft.

 

[seanlinden]

Have you ever been a manager Sean?

Just because you are a manager, doesn't mean you don't have a boss who makes decisions above and below your role. Nonis is the GM but hes not the only person making the calls on player movements, contracts, salary cap management, coaching decisions etc. There are higher ups, and share holders to answer too in most teams around the NHL.

Shanny made it clear he was going to shake up this team in the off-season. We all assumed he meant that meant player movements, however its also included replacing the assistant coaching staff and moving out some of the assistant GM's who were not embracing the change in the game. How do you know that Nonis didn't support those moves? Even if it wasn't his call.. hes the GM, not the owner or president.

Absolutely. I am a manager today. Of course, my boss decides the broader direction for where things are going, but an effective managerial relationship means that my boss doesn't tell me how I go about doing my job, or my team's job.

The GM's job in an NHL organization is to pick the players and his management team. The President's job is to set the budget, and manage the team from a business standpoint.

How do I know it wasn't Nonis' call? because everything about this offseason has suggested it's been Shanny's, and a GM cannot reasonably be expected to succeed, if he's not equipped with what HE believes he needs to succeed.

lol sure bud. It's on record that Shanny wasnt going to fire the assistant Gm's this season, but was forced to do it when another club was in talks with Dubas about a job. Shanny very much may think Dubas is the GM of the future, and putting him in an assistant role to prep him is exactly the right move (even if he doesn't, still a great move).

As for the assistant coaches, not sure if your joking? Just because you haven't heard of people and their "qualifications", doesn't mean they don't exist.

Again, the problem really comes down to the fact that it's Shannahan making these moves, not Nonis. Hire a "GM of the future", in place of effective management of the team today and going forward. If Shanny had an "in" on Dubas, he was free to suggest him as an additional member of the management staff to Nonis.

 

[The Shrike]

I personally think that Nonis is gone. Him not being around for the announcement of the new assistant GM is awkward and it just feels like he no longer has his fingerprints on the deals we saw since the draft.

I've seen this before in business many times, new upper management takes over, then they replace the management levels below them with people who owe their jobs to them....whether they're better at those jobs or not.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Fom the outside, Nonis, Shanny, and Dubas bring different things to the organization. Looks good so far.

 

[diceman934]

Nonis is not the GM in my opinion and here is why:

Doug MacLean: “My biggest question is: where is Dave Nonis? How does an assistant GM get hired & the GM not be there?†… “Dave had some personal things he had to attend to? Ok. Back the hiring off 3 or 5 or 7 days so he can be there†… “The GM should be there when the assistant GM is hired. Are you kidding me?†… “Why the panic? Was there 10 teams lined up that they couldn’t wait 3 days to have the GM in there so he can make the announcement?†… “I’m saying where was he? Make it happen and stall it so he can be there.†… “I listen to the Gardiner announcement yesterday. I’m talking to agents & Shanahan’s doing the negotiations with them†… “I’d just like to know where Dave is. You know, if he’s not the GM then tell us.†… “We’ve seen assistant coaches and GMs get fired but you still have the guy who hired them running the team. It’s bizarre†… “Is this the functioal way to run an organization? If Brendan wants to be the GM then name himself as the GMâ€

 

[Daisy Jane]

Nonis is not the GM in my opinion and here is why:

Doug MacLean: “My biggest question is: where is Dave Nonis? How does an assistant GM get hired & the GM not be there?†… “Dave had some personal things he had to attend to? Ok. Back the hiring off 3 or 5 or 7 days so he can be there†… “The GM should be there when the assistant GM is hired. Are you kidding me?†… “Why the panic? Was there 10 teams lined up that they couldn’t wait 3 days to have the GM in there so he can make the announcement?†… “I’m saying where was he? Make it happen and stall it so he can be there.†… “I listen to the Gardiner announcement yesterday. I’m talking to agents & Shanahan’s doing the negotiations with them†… “I’d just like to know where Dave is. You know, if he’s not the GM then tell us.†… “We’ve seen assistant coaches and GMs get fired but you still have the guy who hired them running the team. It’s bizarre†… “Is this the functional way to run an organization? If Brendan wants to be the GM then name himself as the GMâ€

where was this said? (i've seen the quotes - i'd just love to hear the interview for myself)

 

[Leafin]

What does Doug MacLean know though?

He's another blowhard mediot.

 

[diceman934]

where was this said? (i've seen the quotes - i'd just love to hear the interview for myself)

Not sure of where it was originally but....http://mynhltraderumors.com/tag/cody-franson/

 

[Eb]

Not sure of where it was originally but....http://mynhltraderumors.com/tag/cody-franson/

Ya, we have heard this shtick far too many times.

Burke was overseas July 1st. I am sure he wasn't the GM either.

And please, for the love of the board, don't post any Maclean quotes from now on.

 

[diceman934]

What does Doug MacLean know though?

He's another blowhard mediot.

He knows many things and with him being a GM and President in the NHL knows how things work. This is the same guy who coached Florida to the Stanley cup finals as a coach.

He also traded for Kris Draper for future considerations which turned out to be $1 now that has to rank as one of the best trades ever.

I say he knows a lot!

 

[TheOneArmedMan]

Hopefully Carlyle is gone first. They've givin him a whole bunch of new players to work with for the bottom 6. If he can't improve the defense like he was supposed to and if the team misses the playoffs in 2015 Carlyle needs to go.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Management team is a team just like the hockey team is, except with no cap.

Let them bring as many minds into it as they want, and don't expect anyone to be forced out, yet.

 

[Morbo]

He knows many things and with him being a GM and President in the NHL knows how things work. This is the same guy who coached Florida to the Stanley cup finals as a coach.

He also traded for Kris Draper for future considerations which turned out to be $1 now that has to rank as one of the best trades ever.

I say he knows a lot!

Obviously you haven't listened to him much on hockeycentral then...

Nonis stopped being the functional GM once Shanahan was hired. That was made pretty clear at the press conference. I suspect Randy and Nonis were retained, at least in part, because the desired replacements were not available.

 

[Gallagbi]

Obviously you haven't listened to him much on hockeycentral then...

Nonis stopped being the functional GM once Shanahan was hired. That was made pretty clear at the press conference. I suspect Randy and Nonis were retained, at least in part, because the desired replacements were not available.

Sure he has, a week or two ago he claimed Kypreos was a better insider than McKenzie.

 

[Durkin67]

The facts:
the assistant coaches were fired. Not by Nonis. Their replacements were then hired. Again, not by Nonis. Poulin and loiselle were fired. Not by Nonis. Their replacement, Dubas, was hired, once again, not by Nonis. Hes gm strictly in title at this point. All the major managerial decision are being handled by Shanny. In short, hes only employed because of.the contract Leiwecke handed him.and once hes relieved of his duties it wont be long before the other dominoes fall ie Carlyle, phaneuf, etc.

 

[showtime8]

Sure he has, a week or two ago he claimed Kypreos was a better insider than McKenzie.

Just because Kyper doesn't have twitter attached to their hip, doesn't mean he doesn't know what's going on.

And I would give the edge to Kyper because he actually played in the NHL and knows what goes on in the dressing room.

Regardless, Doug Maclean makes a good point. Why did the press conference have to be without the actual GM?

 

[diceman934]

Sure he has, a week or two ago he claimed Kypreos was a better insider than McKenzie.

It is my opinion.....based on an easy test....one has played the game the other has not!

 

[diceman934]

The facts:
the assistant coaches were fired. Not by Nonis. Their replacements were then hired. Again, not by Nonis. Poulin and loiselle were fired. Not by Nonis. Their replacement, Dubas, was hired, once again, not by Nonis. Hes gm strictly in title at this point. All the major managerial decision are being handled by Shanny. In short, hes only employed because of.the contract Leiwecke handed him.and once hes relieved of his duties it wont be long before the other dominoes fall ie Carlyle, phaneuf, etc.

I agree fully, and it is very plain to see!

 

[Stats01]

Sorry but trying to learn the job form someone you don't trust to do it is idiotic at best. It's really that simple. Explain to me how and what Shanahan is learning from Nonis if he is not good at his job, or not doing it at all as you suggest because Shanahan is making all the calls? What are these in's and outs? Either Nonis is doing his job, looking for players, looking for trades, on the phones, signing guys or there is nothing to learn from.

If Shanahan is making all the calls why would he bring in his own GM later on? That makes no sense at all. Seriously these little conspiracy theories.

I'm sure Shanahan has input on decisions, he is the final sign off, but he is not keeping Nonis around to get him coffee. He is keeping Nonis around because he believes Nonis has value and is competent at his job.

If Shanahan wanted Nonis gone he would already be, he would not risk a whole year. What happens if the Leafs turn things around? What then? All of a sudden he would be stuck with Nonis, not this other GM.

Yes, if this season goes poorly Nonis is probably gone, but it will have more to do with the season than some grand plan Shanahan has to replace him, while really doing the job and making all the calls all along.

Do you really believe Nonis hired Dubas? Nonis can continue to do his job but I think it's pretty obvious that he really has no power right now. The moves he makes have to be directed to Shanahan for approval, this was the whole reason why we hired Shanahan. Something was amiss, we didn't have someone who was really taking a hold of the hockey department it was Lieweke...that's it.. Nonis was making bonehead decision after bonehead decision and Lieweke finally had enough and said I'm not fit to oversee the hockey operation so he goes out and hires Shanahan. Shanahan comes on board and literally in a 6 month span has fired Nonis' 2 assistants and hired a new very young assistant GM. You don't make these moves without realizing the mindset that Nonis and his people had is totally off from the one Shanahan has. Shanahan has had his fingerprints all over this team since he was hired. Nonis is a puppet right now, he's a GM in title only. Once Dubas gets his feet wet with the operation, Nonis will be gone and Dubas will take over. How long that takes who knows but Nonis isn't here for the long haul. His assistants are gone, his coaching staff is gone. Nonis is a dead man walking. He's pretty much being used as a helping hand to Shanahan to help Dubas out and to hold his hand per se along the way until Shanahan sees that Dubas has a handle of things and then he will kick Nonis to the curb.

Why would Shanahan fire Nonis right off the bat? He's just making more work for himself, he'll fire him when he has a replacement in his sights. As long as Shanahan knows that whatever moves Nonis makes have to be approved by him then he doesn't have to fire him. He can fire the people around him which he has done and he can hire his own young protege which he has done..he can also fire the coaching staff which he has done.

 

[TheThrill81*]

The facts:
the assistant coaches were fired. Not by Nonis. Their replacements were then hired. Again, not by Nonis. Poulin and loiselle were fired. Not by Nonis. Their replacement, Dubas, was hired, once again, not by Nonis. Hes gm strictly in title at this point. All the major managerial decision are being handled by Shanny. In short, hes only employed because of.the contract Leiwecke handed him.and once hes relieved of his duties it wont be long before the other dominoes fall ie Carlyle, phaneuf, etc.

You seem to be taking certain liberties with the word 'fact' when you think Phaneuf is one of the other dominoes to fall.

 

[hullsy47]

Do you really believe Nonis hired Dubas? Nonis can continue to do his job but I think it's pretty obvious that he really has no power right now. The moves he makes have to be directed to Shanahan for approval, this was the whole reason why we hired Shanahan. Something was amiss, we didn't have someone who was really taking a hold of the hockey department it was Lieweke...that's it.. Nonis was making bonehead decision after bonehead decision and Lieweke finally had enough and said I'm not fit to oversee the hockey operation so he goes out and hires Shanahan. Shanahan comes on board and literally in a 6 month span has fired Nonis' 2 assistants and hired a new very young assistant GM. You don't make these moves without realizing the mindset that Nonis and his people had is totally off from the one Shanahan has. Shanahan has had his fingerprints all over this team since he was hired. Nonis is a puppet right now, he's a GM in title only. Once Dubas gets his feet wet with the operation, Nonis will be gone and Dubas will take over. How long that takes who knows but Nonis isn't here for the long haul. His assistants are gone, his coaching staff is gone. Nonis is a dead man walking. He's pretty much being used as a helping hand to Shanahan to help Dubas out and to hold his hand per se along the way until Shanahan sees that Dubas has a handle of things and then he will kick Nonis to the curb.

Why would Shanahan fire Nonis right off the bat? He's just making more work for himself, he'll fire him when he has a replacement in his sights. As long as Shanahan knows that whatever moves Nonis makes have to be approved by him then he doesn't have to fire him. He can fire the people around him which he has done and he can hire his own young protege which he has done..he can also fire the coaching staff which he has done.

you said it best my freind .....actually shanahan and carlyle got a classy deal from shanahan .....they each met with him and stated obviously the bottom six is was killied the playoff momentum last year ....trust me the MSLE board knows it'll likley be eating a few years of nonis and carlyles contract ......bad debt as u say in bussiness
nonis shouldve been dumped when burlke got canned ,yey lewike just let him resign himself , shanny is making evreryone accountable and by signing good assistants .left himself in the running for MIKE BABCOCK if he wants out of detroit,
but i think nonis is doing all he can do to show he still has a set of nuts ,bye not attending dubas hiring or commenting on loiselle or poulin ......all shany did was state the obvious ,we need to use advance scouting and our salary cap management is brutal
nonis has always needed brian burke ,and now burke doesnt have to atonomy in calgary and likely never will anywhere again ,i suspect they both fade out of major hockey circles in the next few years ,,,,,,burkes mess here is pretty obvious

 

[Durkin67]

You seem to be taking certain liberties with the word 'fact' when you think Phaneuf is one of the other dominoes to fall.

Apologies for inadvertent ambiguity. The factual component consists of recent history. The conclusion regarding future changes, which is obviously my own, is opinion. I suppose its feasible that this could be misinterpreted if one really tried...