Management Thread. For a Few Dollars More: Gunslinger Edition, Pt II

[4Twenty]

Yes, Brackett was hired to work under Bennings guidelines, obviously the guidelines Brackett had in the previous 6 years in the organization were inept.

One of the reasons Benning was hired was to fix the catastrophe, that was the Canucks drafting..The results speak for themselves.

If you look at the context of what Ray is talking about happening in the fall of 2014..It makes total sense...

Yet the most successful draft is the one that happened before that meeting.

he’s had 5 top 10 picks while trying to contend. Results speak for themselves.

 

[4Twenty]

Is Adam Gaudette the great divider on this improved drafting talk? Or Demko too?

Tryamkin was bad on a bad team.
Forsling AHL tweener.
Brisebois a handful of nhl games where he didn’t look good.

The draft classes beyond the first round don’t look much different than the previous two regime imo.

Also does this mean Jake is officially Benning’s choice. I know people tried to pass that one off on the scouts for years. Maybe not now. I can’t keep up.

 

[4Twenty]

In a nutshell, what we see in the last 15 years from Benning are :

a) a long stretch in Boston where they were the worst drafting team in the NHL.

b) a long stretch in Vancouver when the team has sucked in pretty much all areas aside from the USHL home territory of Judd Brackett and the Pettersson pick that we know Brackett spearheaded and Benning fought against.

In 15 years, Jim Benning has done nothing but fail overseeing NHL scouting staffs outside of work done directly by Judd Brackett. Gillis might not have been great on the amateur scouting side, but Benning is arguably even worse.

This is pretty much it.

The staff still struggles in western Canada and Ontario.

At the end of it all, the GM isn’t really impacting picks the later you go in a draft and considering he’s traded: Madden, Forsling, McCann could these really be seen as “his” picks. I get it, GM is responsible for it all (including the teams record) but it seems like Jimbo didn’t want these guys and moved them.

Anywho, drafting is a but one piece to managing the hockey operations of an nhl franchise. I don’t think the GM has the impacts a lot of others do and I think managing the money is much more significant aspect of the job.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Brackett's responsibilities as the DOS were to ensure good scouting coverage in all regions..The failure to scout well in the CHL is on him as the DOS..The conspiracy theories that some are manufacturing here, are absolute poppycock.

There still isnt one source that has confirmed that Benning was overruled over Pettersson..(Linden saying he gave the scouts autonomy isnt it)

 

[MS]

Even in Bennings time in Boston, their drafting was better than the Canucks ..They nailed 2 out of 3 top 10 picks (Seguin and Hamilton) and also drafted useful players such as Ryan Spooner, Matt Benning and Matt Grzecyk..If Gillis waffled on Horvat, he would have been completely skunked...The aggregate chart demonstrates what the effect of horrible drafting 2007-13 in particular had on the Canucks

View attachment 377148

Tyler Seguin went #2 overall in a year where the top 2 picks were miles ahead of everyone else. Every single GM in the NHL would have taken Seguin in that situation. My Grandma would have taken Seguin in that situation. Like, I'm pretty sure that Mike Gillis would have taken Connor McDavid and Sidney Crosby #1 overall if he'd had a chance, but that means absolutely nothing.

Boston's drafting was horrific, and Ryan Spooners and Matt Bennings (hilarious that that nepotism pick is one of their very best) are no different than Ben Huttons and Kevin Connautons. And nothing Gillis ever did is close to as bad as Zack Hamill at #8 overall.

And it's even worse because it isn't a Gillis situation where everyone agrees that Gillis inherited a crap drafting structure. Boston was absolutely raking at the draft under Jeff Gorton from 2003-2006 and after Benning did his thing and they brought in new staff, they absolutely collapsed. And then hilariously got better again the instant Benning left.

 

[4Twenty]

Brackett's responsibilities as the DOS were to ensure good scouting coverage in all regions..The failure to scout well in the CHL is on him as the DOS..The conspiracy theories that some are manufacturing here, are absolute poppycock.

There still isnt one source that has confirmed that Benning was overruled over Pettersson..(Linden saying he gave the scouts autonomy isnt it)

L o effing L.

So the GM gets all the praise, but none of the responsibility? Don't you think since Benning was the one who delievered the way to identify players, it should have reached all the regions? Why? Why not?

Thank baby jesus the pres overruled the WHL selection at 5th in 2017. They almost got duped into taking the kid who Benning's son watched most nights, thankfully Trevor stood up for the franchise.

 

[4Twenty]

And it's even worse because it isn't a Gillis situation where everyone agrees that Gillis inherited a crap drafting structure. Boston was absolutely raking at the draft under Jeff Gorton from 2003-2006 and after Benning did his thing and they brought in new staff, they absolutely collapsed. And then hilariously got better again the instant Benning left.

It's hilarious. The "improvement" here stems almost solely from draft position. Even the Boeser pick, that draft looks like one of the best of all times, many teams were able to get Boeser level players at 23 or later. We'd be just as happy with the next guy off the board.

Boston's system tanking with Benning and then automatically producing excellent results without him is too perfect not to be a coincidence.

I love how GM's and scouts get praised on their ability to pick in the top 10, it's not like a bunch of know nothing fans don't have a list with the same 10 or 15 guys at the top of every draft class.

The GM is ultimately measured on how the entire team performs, not just at the draft table. It's a crutch for the but Gillis crew to continue to compare the drafting. What about the successes on the ice? So far, only one season under Benning eclipsed the low point total of the Gillis regime. Had a 5 year window as a cup contender. So far, after season 6, this man is being praised for opening a window to be a playoff team, not even a contender. Oh yeah, and it's capped out.

 

[MS]

Brackett's responsibilities as the DOS were to ensure good scouting coverage in all regions..The failure to scout well in the CHL is on him as the DOS..The conspiracy theories that some are manufacturing here, are absolute poppycock.

There still isnt one source that has confirmed that Benning was overruled over Pettersson..(Linden saying he gave the scouts autonomy isnt it)

Wait, what?

Jim Benning is a master scout and great scouting GM who has a Magic Scouting System™ he put in place here to revamp things, but the scouting is totally the result of Judd Brackett? Benning has no influence whatsoever, then?

If this is your mindset, why aren't Gillis' failings to scout well on his DOS (Delorme)?

 

[4Twenty]

Wait, what?

Jim Benning is a master scout and great scouting GM who has a Magic Scouting System™ he put in place here to revamp things, but the scouting is totally the result of Judd Brackett? Benning has no influence whatsoever, then?

If this is your mindset, why aren't Gillis' failings to scout well on his DOS (Delorme)?

LIKE!!!

Which is it then eh? Magical Scouting system, or taking the guy your best scout says to take?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Wait, what?

Jim Benning is a master scout and great scouting GM who has a Magic Scouting System™ he put in place here to revamp things, but the scouting is totally the result of Judd Brackett? Benning has no influence whatsoever, then?

If this is your mindset, why aren't Gillis' failings to scout well on his DOS (Delorme)?

All I'm implying is that , as the DOS, your main job is directing/managing the scouts..in all regions...not just the cherrypicked USHL...I wasn't discussing Bennings system for evaluating (which Brackett is documented talking about) .

Gillis had zero input about scouting, even by his own admission..and, at the end of the day, the GM will get the credit or the blame for the drafted players under his watch..

 

[4Twenty]

All I'm implying is that , as the DOS, your main job is directing/managing the scouts..in all regions...not just the cherrypicked USHL...I wasn't discussing Bennings system for evaluating (which Brackett is documented talking about) .

Gillis had zero input about scouting, even by his own admission..and, at the end of the day, the GM will get the credit or the blame for the drafted players under his watch..

Can you share the documented Brackett chat? That sounds like exactly what I've been asking that other poster for, that you jumped in with a Ray Ferraro sound bite about "how to draft".

The whole conversation was about Benning's system, you're the only one who took it off course. Please provide the link to Brackett talking about the system. That would be much better than pretending Ray Ferraro actually said anything of weight.

Did Gillis have zero input? Where did he say that? Weren't the scouts going to draft Kyle Beach in 2008? Didn't Gillis create a system to measure a players "intelligence"?

I don't think Gillis or most GM's for that matter are overriding their scouts once you get out of the 1st round.

I think your implication here is really funny....the man created a system, but it's not the systems fault they chose a vanilla dman, over a first line power forward from the OHL and almost didn't take their franchise C over a WHL - center.

The Olli Juolevi pick - is that system error, or scouting? To me, I think it was a failure of targeting a specific position (heard all year, they hadn't drafted a dman with a 1st for 10+ years). It was obvious to anyone listening to the mans words as early as Jan 2016, that the Canucks were forcing a defensman into their top tier. Most were scared it was Juolevi. If I had to guess, I think Tkachuk was ranked higher on their list, but they had to have a dman.

Also, how is the USHL cherrypicked? It's Brackett's area of expertise, not to mention the 3 non NTDP players selected out of that league under both Brackett and Benning have ties to Northeastern, and while Benning lived in Boston for a long time, it's pretty evident to see Brackett's got extremely close ties to that college as an alumnus.

 

[MS]

All I'm implying is that , as the DOS, your main job is directing/managing the scouts..in all regions...not just the cherrypicked USHL...I wasn't discussing Bennings system for evaluating (which Brackett is documented talking about) .

Gillis had zero input about scouting, even by his own admission..and, at the end of the day, the GM will get the credit or the blame for the drafted players under his watch..

The point is that you're trying to argue that Benning is a great scouting GM (justifying his existence despite other weaknesses) and that he's put in this Magic System™ to revamp our scouting, and then are at the same time saying that the effect of all that is .... nothing, because Judd Brackett is responsible for generating results from his regions.

For the record, I mostly agree with that ... which is one of the reasons why the whole 'Benning is a master scouting GM' narrative is such a load of BS.

 

[Fatass]

Can you share the documented Brackett chat? That sounds like exactly what I've been asking that other poster for, that you jumped in with a Ray Ferraro sound bite about "how to draft".

The whole conversation was about Benning's system, you're the only one who took it off course. Please provide the link to Brackett talking about the system. That would be much better than pretending Ray Ferraro actually said anything of weight.

Did Gillis have zero input? Where did he say that? Weren't the scouts going to draft Kyle Beach in 2008? Didn't Gillis create a system to measure a players "intelligence"?

I don't think Gillis or most GM's for that matter are overriding their scouts once you get out of the 1st round.

I think your implication here is really funny....the man created a system, but it's not the systems fault they chose a vanilla dman, over a first line power forward from the OHL and almost didn't take their franchise C over a WHL - center.

The Olli Juolevi pick - is that system error, or scouting? To me, I think it was a failure of targeting a specific position (heard all year, they hadn't drafted a dman with a 1st for 10+ years). It was obvious to anyone listening to the mans words as early as Jan 2016, that the Canucks were forcing a defensman into their top tier. Most were scared it was Juolevi. If I had to guess, I think Tkachuk was ranked higher on their list, but they had to have a dman.

Also, how is the USHL cherrypicked? It's Brackett's area of expertise, not to mention the 3 non NTDP players selected out of that league under both Brackett and Benning have ties to Northeastern, and while Benning lived in Boston for a long time, it's pretty evident to see Brackett's got extremely close ties to that college as an alumnus.

Benning’s (almost) fatal flaw is his belief he’s a master scout. In the GM role he can’t get eyes on players like he did in a scouting role. But he insists on seeing certain top picks play a game or two. Then he thinks his great scouting skills supersede the 100’s of hours the scouting department has invested. It’s why we have Juiolevi. Benning saw him play a game and locked in on that was “his guy”. Linden, thank goodness, stepped in the next draft when Benning did his laser lock on Glass, and overruled so we got the scouting department’s pick - Petey.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

one thing i believe we've never ever talked about is when benning was director of amateur scouting of the sabres. wikipedia tells me it was '98 to 2004. that was a very strong drafting run—

dmitri kalinin, ales kotalik, ryan miller, paul gaustad, derek roy, jason pominville, keith ballard, dan paille, dennis wideman, thomas vanek, clarke macarthur, jan hejda, drew stafford, andrej sekera, patrik kaleta

otoh, that run continued a strong run so i wonder if the infrastructure was already in place—henrik tallinder, maxim afinogenov, brian campbell, cory sarich, jay mckee, and martin biron all in the three years before he took over.

idk, my sense is he's probably a good amateur scout but poor manager. but then when he ran the show in buffalo, he got great results.

 

[4Twenty]

The point is that you're trying to argue that Benning is a great scouting GM (justifying his existence despite other weaknesses) and that he's put in this Magic System™ to revamp our scouting, and then are at the same time saying that the effect of all that is .... nothing, because Judd Brackett is responsible for generating results from his regions.

For the record, I mostly agree with that ... which is one of the reasons why the whole 'Benning is a master scouting GM' narrative is such a load of BS.

I mean, it's pretty bleeping obvious that's how it works.

Al Murray - Director of Amateur Scouting

oversees all amateur scouting operations along with the Lightning's draft preparation and execution, reporting directly to the general manager.

spent 12 years with the Los Angeles Kings, serving as director of amateur scouting. In that position he was responsible for the team's amateur scouting operation, including scheduling, assignments, evaluation of talent and development of the final list of players leading up to the NHL Entry Draft

 

[4Twenty]

one thing i believe we've never ever talked about is when benning was director of amateur scouting of the sabres. wikipedia tells me it was '98 to 2004. that was a very strong drafting run—

dmitri kalinin, ales kotalik, ryan miller, paul gaustad, derek roy, jason pominville, keith ballard, dan paille, dennis wideman, thomas vanek, clarke macarthur, jan hejda, drew stafford, andrej sekera, patrik kaleta

otoh, that run continued a strong run so i wonder if the infrastructure was already in place—henrik tallinder, maxim afinogenov, brian campbell, cory sarich, jay mckee, and martin biron all in the three years before he took over.

idk, my sense is he's probably a good amateur scout but poor manager. but then when he ran the show in buffalo, he got great results.

From 3 pages ago:

There are a lot of moving parts there :

1) Frankly, amateur scouting is mostly luck and draft position. The whole notion of anyone being a 'superscout' is patently rubbish.

2) That was 20 years ago, and we have a lot more recent evidence.

3) Most of those years were a really weird time where Buffalo was broke and doing their scouting entirely by video and not paying to have scouts on the road, so the results were created in a very different environment.

4) Benning inherited a staff built by the hugely respected Jack Bowman (Scotty's brother) when Bowman died unexpectedly. They had already chundered out 10 500-game NHLers in the 4 drafts prior to Benning taking over. I think it's fair to say that what happened under Benning was a continuation more than any sort of change or turnaround.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Benning’s (almost) fatal flaw is his belief he’s a master scout. In the GM role he can’t get eyes on players like he did in a scouting role. But he insists on seeing certain top picks play a game or two. Then he thinks his great scouting skills supersede the 100’s of hours the scouting department has invested. It’s why we have Juiolevi. Benning saw him play a game and locked in on that was “his guy”. Linden, thank goodness, stepped in the next draft when Benning did his laser lock on Glass, and overruled so we got the scouting department’s pick - Petey.

Brackett may not have had Juolevi as his #1 choice, but this does not necessarily mean that he was unhappy with the selection...I recall him saying that they had 5 or 6 players picked out that he would have been happy with..Is it not conceivable that Juolevi could have been amongst that group?

What we do know , is that Matt Tkachuk was not on that list..according to Matt, they interviewed him once (at the combines I believe), and never spoke to him again.

Again, outside of the opinions of a handful of posters on one sub forum thread on HF Canucks..there still is not one legitimate source from the sports media that has conclusively said that Benning was overruled on the Pettersson selection.

 

[4Twenty]

Brackett may not have had Juolevi as his #1 choice, but this does not necessarily mean that he was unhappy with the selection...I recall him saying that they had 5 or 6 players picked out that he would have been happy with..Is it not conceivable that Juolevi could have been amongst that group?

What we do know , is that Matt Tkachuk was not on that list..according to Matt, they interviewed him once (at the combines I believe), and never spoke to him again.

Again, outside of the opinions of a handful of posters on one sub forum thread on HF Canucks..there still is not one legitimate source from the sports media that has conclusively said that Benning was overruled on the Pettersson selection.

I've seen it on twitter too, so it's not just HF. Certainly a lot of smoke. Possibly why Benning wanted him gone, because he was getting too much praise for his role in the drafting and Benning wants to be "the main scout" as well as GM.

You think the Canucks had Tkachuk as a Do not Draft? I absolutely doubt that very much and if it does, what does it say about Magical Scouting System? I think the more realistic thing is that they forced a defensman because they just drafted two wingers in the first round back to back years. Almost all signs point to that.

Benning is even on record that Tkachuk was the best in the draft from the top of the circles in.

 

[I am toxic]

It has been completely documented that Linden had to over-rule Benning to get Brackett's pick of Petey.

Anyone who says otherwise is spinning a false narrative.

 

[bandwagonesque]

There are a lot of moving parts there :

1) Frankly, amateur scouting is mostly luck and draft position. The whole notion of anyone being a 'superscout' is patently rubbish.

2) That was 20 years ago, and we have a lot more recent evidence.

3) Most of those years were a really weird time where Buffalo was broke and doing their scouting entirely by video and not paying to have scouts on the road, so the results were created in a very different environment.

4) Benning inherited a staff built by the hugely respected Jack Bowman (Scotty's brother) when Bowman died unexpectedly. They had already chundered out 10 500-game NHLers in the 4 drafts prior to Benning taking over. I think it's fair to say that what happened under Benning was a continuation more than any sort of change or turnaround.

__________

And again, 20 years ago.

We have a ton of evidence since then. We saw what happened in Boston, where he couldn't draft his way out of a paper bag when running the scouting arm of that organization - worst drafting in the NHL. And we've seen him here, where he wanted Juolevi/Glass with top-5 picks in consecutive drafts. And outside of picks that we know were heavily Brackett influenced (Pettersson + USHL guys) our drafting has continued to suck. And to me, 15-20 years of crappy results more than trumps a few good years two decades ago in a very different time.

And quite frankly, all you really need to do is look at his pro scouting. The notion that someone who thinks that Luca Sbisa and Erik Gudbranson are top-4 NHL defenders and who can't even evaluate who is a good player in the here and now for NHL players right in front of him could be some sort of Rainman who 'sees the future' and can accurately project 17 y/o kids is just nonsense. As I've said many times, it's thinking someone who has to count on their fingers to figure out 3x3 could grasp nuclear physics.

I and everyone else knew you'd list some reasons why his successful drafting doesn't count and his unsuccessful drafting does. These are maybe slightly less implausible/circumstantial than what I expected to see, so I at least appreciate the effort.

 

[4Twenty]

Narrative doesn't mean what you think it does!!

NARRATIVE | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

a story or a description of a series of events:

a particular way of explaining or understanding events:

Nowhere in here does narrative mean "incorrect", "fabricated", "false". Just like when you couldn't understand the use of the word, "evidence", when in your mind you were erroneously believing proof and evidence were the same.

 

[iloovRMB]

one thing i believe we've never ever talked about is when benning was director of amateur scouting of the sabres. wikipedia tells me it was '98 to 2004. that was a very strong drafting run—

dmitri kalinin, ales kotalik, ryan miller, paul gaustad, derek roy, jason pominville, keith ballard, dan paille, dennis wideman, thomas vanek, clarke macarthur, jan hejda, drew stafford, andrej sekera, patrik kaleta

otoh, that run continued a strong run so i wonder if the infrastructure was already in place—henrik tallinder, maxim afinogenov, brian campbell, cory sarich, jay mckee, and martin biron all in the three years before he took over.

idk, my sense is he's probably a good amateur scout but poor manager. but then when he ran the show in buffalo, he got great results.

Very few scouting directors will ever have such an impressive resume. Also keep in mind that Benning was a scout for 4 years in Buffalo before he got promoted to be the head scout. He obviously gained massive respect during those 4 years and probably had a hand in some of the great picks you mentioned during that time.

I don't understand why some folks downplay his time in Buffalo as if it doesn't tell us anything. It does. His meteoric rise from being a low level scout speaks volumes to his ability to evaluate talent.

 

[iloovRMB]

This is completely false. I already disproved it eons ago (just check my posts). And in every interview, McGrady singled out one person (who works for the Canucks, by the way) who drove him out of Orlando and made him request a trade. So, please, don't rewrite history. I know it is your motto, but not here.

You disproved nothing. You only re-stated your wrong view. After people in Orlando have had time to reflect, they gave Weisbrod the respect he deserves. You should do the same.

Even though his methods were clumsy, his instincts were dead-on in the two biggest decisions he made. He was right about McGrady not being the type of player, winner or leader that could lead a franchise to a championship. And he was even more right when he made the final call to draft a young high school player (Dwight Howard) over a seasoned college star (Emeka Okafor).

Both moves were panned by experts and fans alike. We've already mentioned the death threat during the McGrady ordeal, when Weisbrod moved into a local hotel while the FBI installed surveillance cameras in his home.

And after he and his assistants — Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik — decided to draft Howard over Okafor, Weisbrod received three garbage bags full of hate mail and national "experts" (see Dick Vitale and Stephen A. Smith) slammed the choice.

Former Magic GM Weisbrod finally gets his Stanley Cup

 

[iloovRMB]

How does Tmac's ability to win anything relate to his ability to assess Weisbrod? (It doesn't.)

Gives us all those positive Weisbrod quotes. Even if they exist, there's a huge difference between a coach and a player speaking out against someone. Coaches are almost always going to speak well of their former bosses. You know, because they like being getting hired elsewhere.

Tmac's ability to win (or lack thereof) relates to John Weisbrod's decision to dump his ass which turned out to be the correct one.

 

[Peen]

I don't know why this is gone over repeatedly.

It's obvious there was a divide from everything that was reported. Maybe someone can confirm but IIRC it was only reported who was on the EP side of the divide but it wasn't reported who was on the Glass side of it. Maybe Benning was 50/50? With the estranged relationship with Brackett, maybe he was deferring to the Glass side of things? Benning seemed equally complimentary as far as I can remember.

Maybe the divide was moreso with Weaselbrod and within the rest of the scouting dept.

Regardless, I also don't get why people suggest there's an agenda here when people discuss what's been reported.

Example: no one debates the Hughes selection and who liked it and who didn't. Why? Because every report or comment made makes it seem that upper management and scouting were all in love with the guy and there was unity across the board in him being their guy.

No one ever responds when I make the Hughes point.