Management Thread. For a Few Dollars More: Gunslinger Edition, Pt II

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Double post

 

[vanuck]

BOS was 2 for 6 in drafting established NHLers from the 1st round under Benning. Their only 2 hits were obviously Seguin and Hamilton.

They went 2 for 3 on top 10 picks = 67% success rate.

VAN was 2 for 5 from the 1st round under Gillis.

We were 2 for 2 on top 10 picks = 100% success rate.

Boston's only other legit finds? Benning who's not all that different from someone like Connauton (both are 3rd pairing D) and Grzelcyk who's similar to Hutton in that they're both bottom 4 guys who could step into a 2nd pair role.

The Bruins had 43 picks under Benning due to one extra draft.

The Canucks had 37 picks under Gillis.

And somehow they ended up with all of 4 NHLers... the exact same as the Canucks.

If people think we were horrible from 2008-2013, Boston was even worse.

 

[timw33]

Sounds like you're completely aligned with MS (should we be surprised?)...Juolevi cant defend at the AHL level, the management was idiotic for not qualifying Stecher,..There's no way Holtby can improve his stats from the last two years, because he's already reached the geriatric age of 31.

Am I right?

Yes, although I don't think Holtby is likely to be more than a bottom third of the league starter at best not because of his age, but because his play has completely cratered over the last three years and is a massive downgrade on Markstrom. Otherwise you absolutely nailed my thoughts!

 

[I am toxic]

BOS was 2 for 6 in drafting established NHLers from the 1st round under Benning. Their only 2 hits were obviously Seguin and Hamilton.

They went 2 for 3 on top 10 picks = 67% success rate.

VAN was 2 for 5 from the 1st round under Gillis.

We were 2 for 2 on top 10 picks = 100% success rate.

Boston's only other legit finds? Benning who's not all that different from someone like Connauton (both are 3rd pairing D) and Grzelcyk who's similar to Hutton in that they're both bottom 4 guys who could step into a 2nd pair role.

The Bruins had 43 picks under Benning due to one extra draft.

The Canucks had 37 picks under Gillis.

And somehow they ended up with all of 4 NHLers... the exact same as the Canucks.

If people think we were horrible from 2008-2013, Boston was even worse.

Once again, facts are not kind to Benning's record.

 

[Peen]

Benning said he hoped to to to be competing with the league’s elite in 4-5 years..You,leaving out the word ‘hope’ completely changes the tone and context of the quote..

Funnily enough,in year 5, they defeated the SC Champs in the first round.

true pom a bubble team that won a round because of historically bad goaltending from binnington in a small sample size in year 6 proves benning right

 

[iloovRMB]

It was reported by multiple reporters, IIRC.
Brackett basically was constructively dismissed from the 2019 draft to the expiration of his contract in 2020. You creating some fictitious story about him not being able to handle the heat is ridiculous and to put it bluntly, asinine.

We still don’t know why the divorce happened. And like any divorce, it’s never just one event that causes it.

None of us except the guys in the room know what happened. If you don’t like hearing speculation that maybe Brackett couldn’t take the heat of a spirited debate then you shouldn’t speculate that Benning went on some power trip and abused his authority over Brackett because those are equally valid possibilities at this point.

I would argue that Benning doesn’t seem like the kind of guy to have that kind of ego. Given the tweet you posted it seems like Brackett wanted a more hands off GM and Benning wanted to be hands on.

Consider the role of a GM. It’s his job to build the team and he only has 3 tools to do so: sign, trade, draft. Trades cost assets. Signings cost cap. Drafting costs nothing and gives you cost control over a player. Clearly the GM’s most powerful tool is the draft. Over time, his or her success will ultimately hinge on the draft performance.

Does it seem rational to completely entrust the head scout with your job? The last guy did that with Ron Delorme and you saw what happened.

The job of a head scout is to give the GM the best information possible on which to base his decisions on who to pick, not to decide which pick better fits into the overall vision of the organization or who should ultimately selected.

A GM may choose to defer to his scouts but when it comes to important picks they do so at their own peril.

Brackett should’ve understood that but I suspect he was more concerned with his own legacy and seeing his efforts come to fruition in the way he wanted to rather than serving the greater good for the team and recognizing his place in the process. If that’s the case then I expect the scouting department to improve with his exit not because he isn’t a great scout, I think he is and he will be successful wherever he goes but he will need a hands off GM, but I expect the scouting will improve here after getting rid of that friction.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

true pom a bubble team that won a round because of historically bad goaltending from binnington in a small sample size in year 6 proves benning right

Bubble team..yes..Are you making up excuses now why the Canucks beat the Blues..?..were they not worthy of winning the series?..Makes me wonder if like or loathe the team?

Last years playoffs were this management’s 5th season..

 

[4Twenty]

Bubble team..yes..Are you making up excuses now why the Canucks beat the Blues..?..were they not worthy of winning the series?..Makes me wonder if like or loathe the team?

Last years playoffs were this management’s 5th season..

rough with vocab, now also bad at math.
1. 14/15
2. 15/16
3. 16/17
4, 17/18
5, 18/19
6. 19/20

This offseason is Jim Benning's 7th on the job. ie we're now in his 7th season in charge.

 

[Jack Burton]

Last years playoffs were this management’s 5th season..

Yes. They are.

THE 5TH season.

What elts do ya got?

 

[Hodgy]

Benning said he hoped to to to be competing with the league’s elite in 4-5 years..You,leaving out the word ‘hope’ completely changes the tone and context of the quote..

Funnily enough,in year 5, they defeated the SC Champs in the first round.

What’s funny or sad, depending on your perspective, how you literally don’t mention the preceding sentence. Like, you either think you are pulling a fast one by ignoring this, or somehow don’t understand the importance of it.

The full quote:

“We want to be competitive next year,” Benning said. “Realistically, if you’re asking me when will the day be that we can compete with the best teams in the league, I think that (Sedin contract) timeline is fair. This is Year 2, and by our fourth or fifth year, I hope we’ll be there with the elite teams in the league.”

Like, to dismiss the preceding quote - where it is literally prefaced with “realistically” - as just being hopeful, is so obviously at odds with any reasonable interpretation of this excerpt I’m left absolutely dumbfounded.

I think a reasonable interpretation of this quote (i.e., one where no words are redefined) would be that Benning both expected and hoped this team would compete with the best teams in the league by the end of the Sedins contract.

 

[iloovRMB]

BOS was 2 for 6 in drafting established NHLers from the 1st round under Benning. Their only 2 hits were obviously Seguin and Hamilton.

They went 2 for 3 on top 10 picks = 67% success rate.

VAN was 2 for 5 from the 1st round under Gillis.

We were 2 for 2 on top 10 picks = 100% success rate.

Boston's only other legit finds? Benning who's not all that different from someone like Connauton (both are 3rd pairing D) and Grzelcyk who's similar to Hutton in that they're both bottom 4 guys who could step into a 2nd pair role.

The Bruins had 43 picks under Benning due to one extra draft.

The Canucks had 37 picks under Gillis.

And somehow they ended up with all of 4 NHLers... the exact same as the Canucks.

If people think we were horrible from 2008-2013, Boston was even worse.

In what world is Hodgson a hit but Joe Colborne, who was better than Hodgson was before his concussions not? In what world is Hutton a hit but Grezclyk not?

In the same span of drafting the Bruins got:

Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, Greczlyk, Hutchinson and Subban who are both NHL backups, Spooner who scored 50 points, Colborne who was a very good 3rd line center before his concussions

Canucks got:

Horvat, Hodgson, Hutton, Connauton

On what freaking planet did Boston do worse? Please explain this to me, I’ll grab some popcorn. This should be good.

 

[Canucks1096]

Brackett's responsibilities as the DOS were to ensure good scouting coverage in all regions..The failure to scout well in the CHL is on him as the DOS..The conspiracy theories that some are manufacturing here, are absolute poppycock.

There still isnt one source that has confirmed that Benning was overruled over Pettersson..(Linden saying he gave the scouts autonomy isnt it)

The "Benning was overruled over Pettersson" crap was just made up by MS. MS decided to paint that story himself. Lot of posters look up to MS. Then all of sudden a lot of people thought the Benning was overruled over Pettersson is true.

If people want to paint there own picture of the story. Fair enough however they can't use that as an argument is there is no clear evidence.

Linden said something along the lines" it is very to important to give scouts the autonomy to make the Pettersson pick, then he said something not just the scouting department, any department. Very important to trust The people.

All Linden is really saying is even I am the president. You have the right to make decisions and I don't need to give the final say. That's it.

I have no idea how Linden saying I give this and that department autonomy leads to Benning was overruled.

 

[Jack Burton]

In what world is Hodgson a hit but Joe Colborne, who was better than Hodgson was before his concussions not? In what world is Hutton a hit but Grezclyk not?

In the same span of drafting the Bruins got:

Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, Greczlyk, Hutchinson and Subban who are both NHL backups, Spooner who scored 50 points, Colborne who was a very good 3rd line center before his concussions

Canucks got:

Horvat, Hodgson, Hutton, Connauton

On what freaking planet did Boston do worse? Please explain this to me, I’ll grab some popcorn. This should be good.

In what world do you got Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes & Horvat?

Through in Miller & Edler.

You honestly think Virtanen & Gaudette are going to be part of this group going forward?





Not a chance. Jimmy and Co will find a way to ruin it.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

We still don’t know why the divorce happened. And like any divorce, it’s never just one event that causes it.

Just going off the reports, which are better than baseless conjecture like your posts indicate.

None of us except the guys in the room know what happened. If you don’t like hearing speculation that maybe Brackett couldn’t take the heat of a spirited debate then you shouldn’t speculate that Benning went on some power trip and abused his authority over Brackett because those are equally valid possibilities at this point.

I never wrote this and you can go try to quote me on it, but you'd just be wasting your time because it never happened.

I would argue that Benning doesn’t seem like the kind of guy to have that kind of ego. Given the tweet you posted it seems like Brackett wanted a more hands off GM and Benning wanted to be hands on.

And that argument would hold no water since there's nothing to support it. I don't know how you extrapolated that from the tweet posted, aside from wishful thinking.

Consider the role of a GM. It’s his job to build the team and he only has 3 tools to do so: sign, trade, draft. Trades cost assets. Signings cost cap. Drafting costs nothing and gives you cost control over a player. Clearly the GM’s most powerful tool is the draft. Over time, his or her success will ultimately hinge on the draft performance.

Does it seem rational to completely entrust the head scout with your job? The last guy did that with Ron Delorme and you saw what happened.

No one is disagreeing with this. I believe the disagreement started with you speculating that Brackett left because he couldn't handle the heat. I think we all can agree that drafting/scouting is a collaborative process.

The job of a head scout is to give the GM the best information possible on which to base his decisions on who to pick, not to decide which pick better fits into the overall vision of the organization or who should ultimately selected.

I think every team does this differently. Didn't Minnesota just give Brackett full reign over their draft?

A GM may choose to defer to his scouts but when it comes to important picks they do so at their own peril.

Don't disagree. And that might not be so bad with the right GM, instead of someone who gunned for players like Juolevi and Glass.

Brackett should’ve understood that but I suspect he was more concerned with his own legacy and seeing his efforts come to fruition in the way he wanted to rather than serving the greater good for the team and recognizing his place in the process. If that’s the case then I expect the scouting department to improve with his exit not because he isn’t a great scout, I think he is and he will be successful wherever he goes but he will need a hands off GM, but I expect the scouting will improve here after getting rid of that friction.

More baseless speculation based on a ridiculously skewed pro-Benning spin, but at least I got my fix for reading fiction for today.

 

[Jack Burton]

Oh hey

I herd a rumor that Boeser was going to be traded?

What's up with that you dork jobs that has no idea what asset management means, or something, something and a further more...something, something.....Jim Benning is a complete tool. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that one.

 

[Jack Burton]

The "Benning was overruled over Pettersson" crap was just made up by MS. MS decided to paint that story himself. Lot of posters look up to MS. Then all of sudden a lot of people thought the Benning was overruled over Pettersson is true.

If people want to paint there own picture of the story. Fair enough however they can't use that as an argument is there is no clear evidence.

Linden said something along the lines" it is very to important to give scouts the autonomy to make the Pettersson pick, then he said something not just the scouting department, any department. Very important to trust The people.

All Linden is really saying is even I am the president. You have the right to make decisions and I don't need to give the final say. That's it.

I have no idea how Linden saying I give this and that department autonomy leads to Benning was overruled.

Wrong,

 

[I am toxic]

rough with vocab, now also bad at math.
1. 14/15
2. 15/16
3. 16/17
4, 17/18
5, 18/19
6. 19/20

This offseason is Jim Benning's 7th on the job. ie we're now in his 7th season in charge.

When facts are not kind, make up stuff.

 

[iloovRMB]

Just going off the reports, which are better than baseless conjecture like your posts indicate.



I never wrote this and you can go try to quote me on it, but you'd just be wasting your time because it never happened.



And that argument would hold no water since there's nothing to support it. I don't know how you extrapolated that from the tweet posted, aside from wishful thinking.



No one is disagreeing with this. I believe the disagreement started with you speculating that Brackett left because he couldn't handle the heat. I think we all can agree that drafting/scouting is a collaborative process.



I think every team does this differently. Didn't Minnesota just give Brackett full reign over their draft?



Don't disagree. And that might not be so bad with the right GM, instead of someone who gunned for players like Juolevi and Glass.



More baseless speculation based on a ridiculously skewed pro-Benning spin, but at least I got my fix for reading fiction for today.

If I go back into the Brackett threads will I find you forcefully pushing back against speculation in the direction of Benning or Weisbrod going on a power trip the same way you pushed back against my speculation? They’re both equally baseless. I agree that my speculation isn’t necessarily what happened and stressed the fact that we don’t know with any certainty because we weren’t in the room.

If we’re against speculation we might as well shut down this entire website. Oh but you don’t mind/won’t call out speculation when you agree with it right? Come on be consistent.

We agree on the GM and head scout’s roles but you seem to avoid connecting the dots to Brackett’s desire to run the draft being at odds with what you just said you agreed with. Regardless of whether you think our GM is a good scout, his scouting background guarantees he will be hands on as would any scout turned GM.

Minnesota’s GM isn’t a scout and their drafting has been putrid so yes I imagine Brackett will be running their draft.

 

[Peen]

Bubble team..yes..Are you making up excuses now why the Canucks beat the Blues..?..were they not worthy of winning the series?..Makes me wonder if like or loathe the team?

Last years playoffs were this management’s 5th season..

ignoring the questionable math of the second portion, let's discuss the idea of implying that pointing out the high variability of a small sample size somehow meaning that i loathe the team

it's doesn't lmao

you can't look at results as an indicator that the likeliest outcome occurred. that's why people build models to project this sort of stuff.

a pro-management example would be that i think the canucks rosters sucked from 2015-2019 but models probably didn't have them as bad as they turned out in those years because we had a high number of injuries four years in row which was anomalous.

you are supposed to build teams for long term windows to account for this variance because this sport is the most luck fueled of any of the big team sports in na - maybe even the world?

do people actually not understand how big variance is in short sample sizes? that fifth game against STL, we got shelled the first half of the game and markstrom made a handful of game saving saves until we opened the floodgates lol. in another world, he doesn't make those saves and the floodgates open on us. shit happens.

 

[Jack Burton]

Let me tell you something @Canucks1096

If you call out 1 of us then you call out the rest of us.








I wouldn't do that because Jim Benning doesn't really have a very good TRACK record.

 

[iloovRMB]

In what world do you got Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes & Horvat?

This one...? not sure what the rest of that post was trying to say tbqh

 

[Jack Burton]

This one...? not sure what the rest of that post was trying to say tbqh

Yes that one.

Forget about the rest of the post.

 

[Hodgy]

The "Benning was overruled over Pettersson" crap was just made up by MS. MS decided to paint that story himself. Lot of posters look up to MS. Then all of sudden a lot of people thought the Benning was overruled over Pettersson is true.

If people want to paint there own picture of the story. Fair enough however they can't use that as an argument is there is no clear evidence.

Linden said something along the lines" it is very to important to give scouts the autonomy to make the Pettersson pick, then he said something not just the scouting department, any department. Very important to trust The people.

All Linden is really saying is even I am the president. You have the right to make decisions and I don't need to give the final say. That's it.

I have no idea how Linden saying I give this and that department autonomy leads to Benning was overruled.

When you listen to Linden’s interview it’s painfully obvious what he meant. Specifically referenced the Pettersson pick to illustrate the importance of giving the director of scouting autonomy to make the pick. If Benning was ultimately going to also pick Pettersson, then why would Linden be using this as a good example of the importance of autonomy? The answer is obviously that he wouldn’t have, and that he referenced it because if autonomy was not ensured by Linden in the case of the Pettersson pick, then a worse player would have been picked.

There isn’t any other reasonable explanation of Linden’s interview. Poor old PoM had to redefine the word autonomy.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

If I go back into the Brackett threads will I find you forcefully pushing back against speculation in the direction of Benning or Weisbrod going on a power trip the same way you pushed back against my speculation? They’re both equally baseless. I agree that my speculation isn’t necessarily what happened and stressed the fact that we don’t know with any certainty because we weren’t in the room.

If we’re against speculation we might as well shut down this entire website. Oh but you don’t mind/won’t call out speculation when you agree with it right? Come on be consistent.

Go quote me then. I can assure you I did not write what you previously misquoted.

I'm going off of reports from multiple credible sources (while they're not perfect as they're not from the horse's mouth, they're all we have to go off). You're just making stuff up. They're not at all the same thing, as your posts are 100% made up garbage, whereas mine come from journalists that have some connections/insider information.

We agree on the GM and head scout’s roles but you seem to avoid connecting the dots to Brackett’s desire to run the draft being at odds with what you just said you agreed with. Regardless of whether you think our GM is a good scout, his scouting background guarantees he will be hands on as would any scout turned GM.

Ok, I didn't disagree with this. I said Brackett was stripped of his job duties from the 2019 draft onwards. You're making a fascinating straw man for some reason.

Minnesota’s GM isn’t a scout and their drafting has been putrid so yes I imagine Brackett will be running their draft.

You originally spoke generally in your last post, which is why I provided an example of the contrary. You should have originally specified, something like "the job of the Canucks' head scout is to give the GM the best information possible on which to base his decisions on who to pick, not to decide which pick better fits into the overall vision of the organization or who should ultimately selected."

Not my fault you move the goalposts to suit your argument after the fact.

 

[iloovRMB]

Go quote me then. I can assure you I did not write what you previously misquoted.

I'm going off of reports from multiple credible sources (while they're not perfect as they're not from the horse's mouth, they're all we have to go off). You're just making stuff up. They're not at all the same thing, as your posts are 100% made up garbage, whereas mine come from journalists that have some connections/insider information.

Those “reports” (I call them tweets lol) from credible sources who weren’t in the room either and may have heard it second or third hand are a lot further from perfect than your confidence portrays. They’re also very vague and don’t lend any credence to the condemnations of Benning that came in the wake of Brackett’s departure.