Management Thread. For a Few Dollars More: Gunslinger Edition, Pt II

[iloovRMB]

Agreeing on some players and disagreeing on others is a normal part of a healthy scouting department that encourages debates. Scouts should be encouraged to defend their convictions passionately. That's normal and it's a good thing.

This "rift" narrative that because some guys disagreed on some players means they take it personally and start hating each other or whatever is just nonsense.

Seems to me that the kitchen was too hot for Judd and he couldn't handle it. That's fine, some people have different personalities that don't like conflict and hopefully he gets that in Minnesota. But we shouldn't want that here, there should always be a lively discussion and debate around players - if there isn't then the scouts aren't doing their jobs.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Agreeing on some players and disagreeing on others is a normal part of a healthy scouting department that encourages debates. Scouts should be encouraged to defend their convictions passionately. That's normal and it's a good thing.

This "rift" narrative that because some guys disagreed on some players means they take it personally and start hating each other or whatever is just nonsense.

Seems to me that the kitchen was too hot for Judd and he couldn't handle it. That's fine, some people have different personalities that don't like conflict and hopefully he gets that in Minnesota. But we shouldn't want that here, there should always be a lively discussion and debate around players - if there isn't then the scouts aren't doing their jobs.

Stripping someone of their job duties (no input on the 2nd day of the 2019 draft) does not equate to “too hot to handle.” You’re out of your tree.

 

[4Twenty]

Am I the only one who thinks John Weisbrod makes up his own job titles?

Director of Collegiate scouting (team made no selections from the NCAA in his time)

Assistant General Manager of Player Personnel? What even is that? Never heard of one.

Vice President of Player Personnel.

I have yet to come accross any such titles belonging to anyone else in hockey.

 

[iloovRMB]

Stripping someone of their job duties (no input on the 2nd day of the 2019 draft) does not equate to “too hot to handle.” You’re out of your tree.

Not sure I buy that story. By the 2nd day of the draft the lists are already made by Brackeet and there isn't much to do other than see who's left available and choose the highest guy left on your list. What was Brackett stopped from doing?

 

[4Twenty]

Stripping someone of their job duties (no input on the 2nd day of the 2019 draft) does not equate to “too hot to handle.” You’re out of your tree.

Imagine thinking it was too hot to handle for Brackett.

You don't think the two guys were finding it pretty hot under the collar when the story started to leak about who actually wanted the kid who saved their jobs.

 

[iloovRMB]

Am I the only one who thinks John Weisbrod makes up his own job titles?

Director of Collegiate scouting (team made no selections from the NCAA in his time)

Assistant General Manager of Player Personnel? What even is that? Never heard of one.

Vice President of Player Personnel.

I have yet to come accross any such titles belonging to anyone else in hockey.

Unless you have a rare case of a Noah Hanifin or a Jack Eichel or a Quinn Hughes playing in college for their draft year you won't be making draft selections out of the NCAA.

What you will do, however, is scout the NCAA to see about signing free agents like we signed Stecher, Rafferty, etc.

 

[Fatass]

Can we fans agree that Benning is, when it’s his primary job, a good scout? And that while in the GM job he doesn’t have the time to get eyes on a player for enough hours to be a good scout. Again, to me, Benning wants to be that “scouting guy”, but his job as GM doesn’t allow him the time necessary to do scout well. Really, he should go back to being a full time scout (director of scouting or crossover scout) because that’s where he’s best. I think that’s where he ends up once he’s fired from us.

 

[timw33]

Can we fans agree that Benning is, when it’s his primary job, a good scout?

Cannot agree with this as that notion has pretty soundly been dismantled by MS and Melvin on multiple occasions.

 

[Fatass]

Cannot agree with this as that notion has pretty soundly been dismantled by MS and Melvin on multiple occasions.

So what, exactly, is Benning good at then? If he’s a poor scout, and he’s clearly a horrible GM, what’s left? Is our owner just blinded by love or something?

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Not sure I buy that story. By the 2nd day of the draft the lists are already made by Brackeet and there isn't much to do other than see who's left available and choose the highest guy left on your list. What was Brackett stopped from doing?

It was reported by multiple reporters, IIRC.
Brackett basically was constructively dismissed from the 2019 draft to the expiration of his contract in 2020. You creating some fictitious story about him not being able to handle the heat is ridiculous and to put it bluntly, asinine.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Tmac's ability to win (or lack thereof) relates to John Weisbrod's decision to dump his ass which turned out to be the correct one.

dude that’s crazy

 

[MarkMM]

So what, exactly, is Benning good at then? If he’s a poor scout, and he’s clearly a horrible GM, what’s left? Is our owner just blinded by love or something?

My honest guess is that he has a lot of experience and connections and that's worth something; then he tells ownership what they want to hear (that this team is close to being a quick turnaround in 2014 while others are saying that an expensive and time-consuming re-build is necessary) so they go with the guy that says he can deliver what they want. By the time it's become obvious he's failed at that (spent to the cap, been a net loser of picks and prospects while still bottoming out of the playoffs for half a decade), ownership is in a tough position to blame him because he was following their instructions. That, and after years of being a lottery picking team we've scored a handful of hits that provides the basis for a turnaround, so might as well carry on.

I think Benning is a hit and miss drafter, a mind-bogglingly incompetent cap and asset manager, a previously terrible but recently improved to marginal trader...but in the end he's the owner's guy.

 

[timw33]

Can't wrap my head around this one at all. New levels of spin.

 

[lousy]

Can't wrap my head around this one at all. New levels of spin.

That isn't a new type of comment, and I have heard it before. The AHL isn't as structured as the NHL because the play is a little more haphazard due to the skill level. Whether it will be true that Juolevi will do better in this environment is a different discussion. He seemed to do okay during his brief playoff appearance... we will see next season what happens

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

My honest guess is that he has a lot of experience and connections and that's worth something; then he tells ownership what they want to hear (that this team is close to being a quick turnaround in 2014 while others are saying that an expensive and time-consuming re-build is necessary) so they go with the guy that says he can deliver what they want. By the time it's become obvious he's failed at that (spent to the cap, been a net loser of picks and prospects while still bottoming out of the playoffs for half a decade), ownership is in a tough position to blame him because he was following their instructions. That, and after years of being a lottery picking team we've scored a handful of hits that provides the basis for a turnaround, so might as well carry on.

I think Benning is a hit and miss drafter, a mind-bogglingly incompetent cap and asset manager, a previously terrible but recently improved to marginal trader...but in the end he's the owner's guy.

Detroit has missed the playoffs four years straight
Buffalo nine
Senators three
Kings two
Ducks two
Devils ..one playoff appearance in eight years...

The team had to transition from an aging core to a new one, we missed the post season four years in a row..the horror...The Senators,Red Wings,Kings,Ducks are all going to be looking at at four (minimum) or more years out of the post season..That is literally how long it takes to build a new core..Are we different, or special somehow?...Despite the indignant cries from impatient fans, I dont think the ownership is unsatisfied with the results, or the time frame it took.

 

[timw33]

That isn't a new type of comment, and I have heard it before. The AHL isn't as structured as the NHL because the play is a little more haphazard due to the skill level. Whether it will be true that Juolevi will do better in this environment a different discussion. He seemed to do okay during his brief playoff appearance... we will see next season what happens

He played 6 soft minutes in the NHL and has a dreadful body of work when it comes to actually playing defence in the AHL.

 

[lousy]

He played 6 soft minutes in the NHL and has a dreadful body of work when it comes to actually playing defence in the AHL.

I figure he will play soft minutes in the nhl at all times if possible, until he gets more experience and grows as a player. Or not grow and get sent down. I was just commenting that what Benning said isn't that unusual or spin like. It does make sense. Unless you have made up your mind about Juolevi already

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

He played 6 soft minutes in the NHL and has a dreadful body of work when it comes to actually playing defence in the AHL.

Sounds like you're completely aligned with MS (should we be surprised?)...Juolevi cant defend at the AHL level, the management was idiotic for not qualifying Stecher,..There's no way Holtby can improve his stats from the last two years, because he's already reached the geriatric age of 31.

Am I right?

 

[4Twenty]

That isn't a new type of comment, and I have heard it before. The AHL isn't as structured as the NHL because the play is a little more haphazard due to the skill level. Whether it will be true that Juolevi will do better in this environment is a different discussion. He seemed to do okay during his brief playoff appearance... we will see next season what happens

Yeah I remember hearing the same thing when we had Nicklas Jensen.

Detroit has missed the playoffs four years straight
Buffalo nine
Senators three
Kings two
Ducks two
Devils ..one playoff appearance in eight years...

The team had to transition from an aging core to a new one, we missed the post season four years in a row..the horror...The Senators,Red Wings,Kings,Ducks are all going to be looking at at four (minimum) or more years out of the post season..That is literally how long it takes to build a new core..Are we different, or special somehow?...Despite the indignant cries from impatient fans, I dont think the ownership is unsatisfied with the results, or the time frame it took.

It’s not about the time frame. It’s about being able to capitalize on that down time. This team is capped out and their best players are their cheapest. Their salaries are going to go up 10 times next year. Do they have the flexibility to actually be contending in year 7 or 8?
The franchise missed the playoffs 5 times in 6 years with a dead cat bounce in Benning’s first year.

People expected maybe no franchise players but a better run team. They got the franchise players but are capped out when they should have their most flexibility.

Look at the cap space and flexibility coming for Ottawa, Detroit, LA and Anaheim. Look at their examples of actual deep prospect pools, and hoards of draft picks.

That’s the difference.

Sounds like you're completely aligned with MS (should we be surprised?)...Juolevi cant defend at the AHL level, the management was idiotic for not qualifying Stecher,..There's no way Holtby can improve his stats from the last two years, because he's already reached the geriatric age of 31.

Am I right?

The Utica thread and people who regularly watch, have clearly stated the issues with Juolevi’s defensive play. Ignoring that seems silly.

Acting like MS is just creating that idea is just really sad. What skin in the game does MS have? Are the Utica posters lying too?

I think Juolevi will be able to look better going forward in the NHL but I think going backwards and in his end he will struggle mightily. NHL players are bigger, faster and more skilled than anything the AHL can offer.

I think they would have to shelter him heavily and that means Quinn is getting much tougher minutes. Not sure the d corps has the make up that will allow Juolevi the extreme usage he’ll likely need (as evidenced by 7 minute game).

 

[lousy]

Yeah I remember hearing the same thing when we had Nicklas Jensen.

Maybe? Okay? Does that make what I said untrue? They are different players

 

[MS]

Maybe? Okay? Does that make what I said untrue? They are different players

Players who are better NHL players than they were AHL players basically do not exist. There might be the odd unicorn here or there, but it isn't a thing.

The closest comparable to Juolevi in recent memory is probably David Rundblad, and his defensive issues and soft play didn't magically disappear when he was promoted to the NHL.

And that's the thing - it isn't like Juolevi's offensive skills are struggling to translate in the AHL. He can transition the puck very well at that level. The issue is his defensive play, and that doesn't get easier moving up levels. Ever.

 

[lousy]

Players who are better NHL players than they were AHL players basically do not exist. There might be the odd unicorn here or there, but it isn't a thing.

The closest comparable to Juolevi in recent memory is probably David Rundblad, and his defensive issues and soft play didn't magically disappear when he was promoted to the NHL.

And that's the thing - it isn't like Juolevi's offensive skills are struggling to translate in the AHL. He can transition the puck very well at that level. The issue is his defensive play, and that doesn't get easier moving up levels. Ever.

But the thing is it isn't his defensive play overall. Everything I have read is that he is an excellent penalty killer and shot blocker, and a good defensive partner who could get beaten on the rush because of his turning. And I have also read it could be partly because of injuries. He obviously was able to show the coaching staff during the playoff tryout bubble he has grown enough to be given a chance over other prospects when the need was there. I just see there is potentially room to grow

 

[vanuck]

Nailed a #2 pick. Incredible. What about the one he didn’t nail? The 7th overall pick with 20 nhl games.

Matt Benning equivalent to Kevin Connauton.

Ben Hutton comparable to Ryan Spooner.

Where does Hodgson fit?

Just look at the Boston classes before and after Benning. Night and day. The one before he arrived: Marchand, Lucic and Kessel and the one after he left: Bjork, Pastrnak, Donato, Heinen.

I'd rate Grzelcyk on the same level as Hutton actually.

Saying Spooner was some useful player is laughable.

 

[Peen]

Guys, stop having high expectations for this organization.

Oh wait, Benning had higher hopes than most of us when he said we would be competing with the leagues elites by year 4 or 5.

See you guys in year 9 for the much discussed 2022-2023 cup year.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Guys, stop having high expectations for this organization.

Oh wait, Benning had higher hopes than most of us when he said we would be competing with the leagues elites by year 4 or 5.

See you guys in year 9 for the much discussed 2022-2023 cup year.

Benning said he hoped to to to be competing with the league’s elite in 4-5 years..You,leaving out the word ‘hope’ completely changes the tone and context of the quote..

Funnily enough,in year 5, they defeated the SC Champs in the first round.