Management Thread | Edge of Tomorrow

[krutovsdonut]

The bottom six is a problem and has remained a problem for the entire season and into the playoffs. We are lucky this Canucks core is actually clutch and performs, otherwise it's ugly. This is pretty insane to have your top players producing every single game.

the bottom six is the reason the canucks made the playins at all and the reason they have gotten this far. it is the reason the young guys are able to handle these situations and are playing a complete and composed game,.

pettersson and hughes are otherworldly, but they have had some help. pettersson played 16 minutes last night. in an elimination game. motte played 17. beagle 14.

the bottom 6 won game 6 for us against stl and they scored the gwg last night, which was the key to the game and those pettersson minutes. they ground out the minutes as they have done the whole playoffs. that is the reason pettersson is still fresh and effective this far in and why we are inexplicably still in a series where conventional wisdom says we should be gone.

don't get me wrong, the bottom 6 have plenty of limitations, and we overpaid for some of them. but that's the story with just about any bottom 6 in the league. the most noticable thing about the canucks as opposed to other rebuilding teams when they make some noise in the playoffs for the first time, is that the canucks have depth, discipline and composure, and are a cohesive unit. there is none of the typical overreliance on long shift taking emerging super stars or one or two vets. the canucks have skipped a whole stage in the process. now you can say pettersson and hughes and horvat maybe are special players, and i agree, but they had to have a situation in which it was possible for them to be special. a huge part of that is the bottom 6.

they can win or lose tonight, but the chronic bottom 6 sucks narrative and endless baiting of guys like beagle is shot all to hell. they have done exactly what it was supposed to do, which was reinforce the young core with credible depth and experience for the playoffs so the young core could learn and thrive. the result is that our young players have just had an incredible learning experience, whether or not they get past vegas tonight.

anyway, rant off. back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Bleach Clean]

View attachment 365863

That response clarifies it. Thanks.

 

[PG Canuck]

I wish I could get behind what you're saying, but I can't. Have you ever thought, since Motte and Beagle are playing more than our top players, that is probably why we are constantly hemmed in our own zone? I like Motte too. I think it's probably pretty accurate that the Canucks bottom 6 has produced the least amount of any team still remaining. You mentioned two games out of 16 games they have played, and you don't see an issue.....? I'm finding it hard to believe having your bottom six only chip in for 2/16 games is well below league average, and not okay.

Oh, while also getting hemmed in at every waking moment. Markstrom/Demko mask a lot of defensive issues and bottom six issues.

 

[Bleach Clean]

the bottom six is the reason the canucks made the playins at all and the reason they have gotten this far. it is the reason the young guys are able to handle these situations and are playing a complete and composed game,.

pettersson and hughes are otherworldly, but they have had some help. pettersson played 16 minutes last night. in an elimination game. motte played 17. beagle 14.

the bottom 6 won game 6 for us against stl and they scored the gwg last night, which was the key to the game and those pettersson minutes. they ground out the minutes as they have done the whole playoffs. that is the reason pettersson is still fresh and effective this far in and why we are inexplicably still in a series where conventional wisdom says we should be gone.

don't get me wrong, the bottom 6 have plenty of limitations, and we overpaid for some of them. but that's the story with just about any bottom 6 in the league. the most noticable thing about the canucks as opposed to other rebuilding teams when they make some noise in the playoffs for the first time, is that the canucks have depth, discipline and composure, and are a cohesive unit. there is none of the typical overreliance on long shift taking emerging super stars or one or two vets. the canucks have skipped a whole stage in the process. now you can say pettersson and hughes and horvat maybe are special players, and i agree, but they had to have a situation in which it was possible for them to be special. a huge part of that is the bottom 6.

they can win or lose tonight, but the chronic bottom 6 sucks narrative and endless baiting of guys like beagle is shot all to hell. they have done exactly what it was supposed to do, which was reinforce the young core with credible depth and experience for the playoffs so the young core could learn and thrive. the result is that our young players have just had an incredible learning experience, whether or not they get past vegas tonight.

anyway, rant off. back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I like that when we have data outlining the major deficiencies of the bottom6 so that we can put a post like the above into its proper context: As in, there’s nothing supporting it.

Great to be a fan and euphoric about where they are, but the reality tells a different story than the one Krutov is trying to convey.

I’ll leave it there. Enjoy the game Krutov.

 

[PG Canuck]

Roussel vs Minny G3
Sutter vs Minny G4
Motte vs STL G5
Virtanen vs STL G5
Motte vs STL G5
Beagle vs STL G6
Roussel vs STL G6
Motte vs STL G6
Virtanen vs VGK G6

9/46 goals are from the bottom 6.

So 19% has come from the bottom six, with most of that coming in two games vs STL.

Would be interested to see how that compares to other teams. Maybe it is good, I don't know. Would have to see.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

the bottom six is the reason the canucks made the playins at all and the reason they have gotten this far. it is the reason the young guys are able to handle these situations and are playing a complete and composed game,.

pettersson and hughes are otherworldly, but they have had some help. pettersson played 16 minutes last night. in an elimination game. motte played 17. beagle 14.

the bottom 6 won game 6 for us against stl and they scored the gwg last night, which was the key to the game and those pettersson minutes. they ground out the minutes as they have done the whole playoffs. that is the reason pettersson is still fresh and effective this far in and why we are inexplicably still in a series where conventional wisdom says we should be gone.

don't get me wrong, the bottom 6 have plenty of limitations, and we overpaid for some of them. but that's the story with just about any bottom 6 in the league. the most noticable thing about the canucks as opposed to other rebuilding teams when they make some noise in the playoffs for the first time, is that the canucks have depth, discipline and composure, and are a cohesive unit. there is none of the typical overreliance on long shift taking emerging super stars or one or two vets. the canucks have skipped a whole stage in the process. now you can say pettersson and hughes and horvat maybe are special players, and i agree, but they had to have a situation in which it was possible for them to be special. a huge part of that is the bottom 6.

they can win or lose tonight, but the chronic bottom 6 sucks narrative and endless baiting of guys like beagle is shot all to hell. they have done exactly what it was supposed to do, which was reinforce the young core with credible depth and experience for the playoffs so the young core could learn and thrive. the result is that our young players have just had an incredible learning experience, whether or not they get past vegas tonight.

anyway, rant off. back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Agreed,....If this was a bottom 6 of Dowd, Chaput,Gaunce etc...we dont get past STL..Its not all about looking at the stat sheets, ..The intangibles , and experience definitely come into play here..If you're just looking at goals (their job is to prevent them), you're completely missing the point ..Green said as much post game last night.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I like that when we have data outlining the major deficiencies of the bottom6 so that we can put a post like the above into its proper context: As in, there’s nothing supporting it.

Great to be a fan and euphoric about where they are, but the reality tells a different story than the one Krutov is trying to convey.

I’ll leave it there. Enjoy the game Krutov.

i like that you mention data in every post you make responding to me but you never provide any. last time as i recall you called your opinions data. well my opinion is that the bottom 6 are paid to be buried in inappropriate matchups because our young top 6 players are not ready to carry a full load. i've said that for two years now and it is still true. it's one reason they had to be overpaid to come here, because it would reflect poorly on their personal stats.

this discussion group has been wrong for an entire season about nearly everything about this team including the bottom 6. you've identified or predicted failure over and over. you've anxiously worried about problems that do not exist. you've been wrong over and over.

this season is a massive success developmentally for the core players, win or lose tonight. it's a triumph for the gamble benning took.

that success has arisen in significant part from the controversial strategy of spending to the cap on a supporting cast of veterans who had to be overpaid or overtermed to get them here. but here they are, and here we are.

absolutely we are in the cap situation of a seasoned contender because of this. but one of the benefits of this success is we can now recruit like a contender. we do not have to overpay or overterm as much. and our overpaid overtermed depth guys just became more valuable for other teams looking for role players. so maybe benning can move one or maybe two without having to pay too much. doubtful, but i'd rather be working the phones after this than i would be trying to line up more marginal replacement players after another season of fail from following the cap obsessed strategy you favour.

anyway, bottom line is success breed success, and benning's shortcut to success finally got us there. which is great not only because of the awesome games most of us can enjoy unconditionally without fretting about how many years ferlund has on his contract.

stay tuned.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Exactly.

I'm happy to defer to results over process. The only reason I ever cared about process is for the end results. My enjoyment of hockey is for the sport still, not just arguing about what management should be doing.

Will definitely acknowledge that I probably weighted process too much in the past, but I hope the people who have been arguing in this thread see that that is all it ever was; a discussion about process.

Any disdain towards Jim Benning is about wanting the team to succeed. You can be against the process but a fan of the results. I'd be genuinely happy for Jim Benning if we won tonight, while dearly hoping that he sees his process errors to this point and is able to fix them rather than doubling down.

Succeed at what? Is the question. Is this the successful cup contender that can make multiple runs? Doesn’t look like it to me. And so, process is going to show itself again here in short order when we hit the off-season.

It’s a team that is exceeding expectations. That’s great, it’s time to cheer them. But the team is not the GM, or vice versa. There is separation there. A good GM can manage a bad team, and a good team can have a bad GM.

Plenty of time to go over this and where the process has led them after the post season.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I wish I could get behind what you're saying, but I can't. Have you ever thought, since Motte and Beagle are playing more than our top players, that is probably why we are constantly hemmed in our own zone? I like Motte too. I think it's probably pretty accurate that the Canucks bottom 6 has produced the least amount of any team still remaining. You mentioned two games out of 16 games they have played, and you don't see an issue.....? I'm finding it hard to believe having your bottom six only chip in for 2/16 games is well below league average, and not okay.

Oh, while also getting hemmed in at every waking moment. Markstrom/Demko mask a lot of defensive issues and bottom six issues.

we're hemmed in our own zone because we are playing a containment defence. our forwards are not allowed to sacrifice position to try to regain possession, and all our players are required to keep the puck on the boards to clear even if there is a high risk of losing possession. its ugly but we don't match up against their forechecking and we were losing one on one battles and stick battles and getting caught out of position. the exact same thing happened with st louis and in that series we actually got stronger from doing it.

in other words, we're hemmed in on purpose. if you watch the team they are calm and patient. it's like watching a penalty kill.

 

[Bleach Clean]

i like that you mention data in every post you make responding to me but you never provide any. last time as i recall you called your opinions data. well my opinion is that the bottom 6 are paid to be buried in inappropriate matchups because our young top 6 players are not ready to carry a full load. i've said that for two years now and it is still true. it's one reason they had to be overpaid to come here, because it would reflect poorly on their personal stats.

this discussion group has been wrong for an entire season about nearly everything about this team including the bottom 6. you've identified or predicted failure over and over. you've anxiously worried about problems that do not exist. you've been wrong over and over.

this season is a massive success developmentally for the core players, win or lose tonight. it's a triumph for the gamble benning took.

that success has arisen in significant part from the controversial strategy of spending to the cap on a supporting cast of veterans who had to be overpaid or overtermed to get them here. but here they are, and here we are.

absolutely we are in the cap situation of a seasoned contender because of this. but one of the benefits of this success is we can now recruit like a contender. we do not have to overpay or overterm as much. and our overpaid overtermed depth guys just became more valuable for other teams looking for role players. so maybe benning can move one or maybe two without having to pay too much. doubtful, but i'd rather be working the phones after this than i would be trying to line up more marginal replacement players after another season of fail from following the cap obsessed strategy you favour.

anyway, bottom line is success breed success, and benning's shortcut to success finally got us there. which is great not only because of the awesome games most of us can enjoy unconditionally without fretting about how many years ferlund has on his contract.

stay tuned.

I have never shirked from providing data/homework to those who would heed it... Plenty of posts have been made about how the Canucks have been crushed in shot differentials when the top2 lines are not on the ice. Would it make a difference to you if I re-posted them here?

(I don’t think it would because you’ve already baked that into your theory)

Anyway, I’m not saying you can’t believe what you want to believe, despite what the numbers will relay. Feel free. If you want to enjoy the games, enjoy them. If you want to think the bottom6 is critical, have at it.

Overall, I didn’t think you made your post with the intention of convincing anyone of anything. I took it as “I disagree” to a known and evaluated issue.


Edit: If it’s by design, then is the poor Dzone passing and bad support by the forwards also by design? How far does it go?

 

[timw33]

Roussel vs Minny G3
Sutter vs Minny G4
Motte vs STL G5
Virtanen vs STL G5
Motte vs STL G5
Beagle vs STL G6
Roussel vs STL G6
Motte vs STL G6
Virtanen vs VGK G6

9/46 goals are from the bottom 6.

So 19% has come from the bottom six, with most of that coming in two games vs STL.

Would be interested to see how that compares to other teams. Maybe it is good, I don't know. Would have to see.

Very quick look at past two winners:

WSH 17-18 had 23 goals in 24 games from their bottom-6 forwards (0.958G/GP)
STL 18-19 had 21 goals in 26 games from their bottom-6 forwards (0.807G/GP)

Vancouver has 10 goals in 16 games from their bottom-6 forwards (0.625G/GP)

 

[krutovsdonut]

I have never shirked from providing data/homework to those who would heed it... Plenty of posts have been made about how the Canucks have been crushed in shot differentials when the top2 lines are not on the ice. Would it make a difference to you if I re-posted them here?

(I don’t think it would because you’ve already baked that into your theory)

Anyway, I’m not saying you can’t believe what you want to believe, despite what the numbers will relay. Feel free. If you want to enjoy the games, enjoy them. If you want to think the bottom6 is critical, have at it.

Overall, I didn’t think you made your post with the intention of convincing anyone of anything. I took it as “I disagree” to a known and evaluated issue.

you'd think all this known and evaluated data you have would be close at hand for you so you could provide me a link.

here's my data:
16, 7, 11, 18,
16, 2, 14, 16

aka pettersson and hughes' playoff games, goals, assists and points at the ripe age of 20 and 21 while playing hockey the right way with a defensive commitment and in a key frontline role. aka experience and confidence you cannot buy.

brought to you by absolutely key contributions from jay beagle, antoine roussel, brandon sutter, tyler motte, and tyler myers. all players you have trashed.

end data report

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Predictable responses by some here....Notice how the bar has risen......
'making the playoffs is an extremely low bar'
'anyone can win a round'
'this team is a failure unless it can take multiple runs at the cup'

Do the Canucks make the playoffs in the 2019-2020 season? (#383)

 

[GetFocht]

Predictable responses by some here....Notice how the bar has risen......
'making the playoffs is an extremely low bar'
'anyone can win a round'
'this team is a failure unless it can take multiple runs at the cup'

Do the Canucks make the playoffs in the 2019-2020 season? (#383)

There is literally a 1 in 31 chance of winning a cup, its easy to cheer for the losing side in efforts to be right. You all need to just invest into government bonds for a safe 1% return, this is sports, its all about cheering for a team to defy the odds.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Predictable responses by some here....Notice how the bar has risen......
'making the playoffs is an extremely low bar'
'anyone can win a round'
'this team is a failure unless it can take multiple runs at the cup'

Do the Canucks make the playoffs in the 2019-2020 season? (#383)

Just another sad post.

People say the team is on the bubble, that doesn’t somehow translate to ‘cannot make the playoffs’. Then, you post a poll where 40% voted they would make the playoffs...?

People say they want a true rebuild so that they can have a consistent contender. Look! They made the playoffs one time!

And on and on we go.

 

[kanuck87]

Predictable responses by some here....Notice how the bar has risen......
'making the playoffs is an extremely low bar'
'anyone can win a round'
'this team is a failure unless it can take multiple runs at the cup'

Do the Canucks make the playoffs in the 2019-2020 season? (#383)

Which of these statements are false?

 

[GetFocht]

Canucks' Benning proud to see young core flourish in post-season run - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Canucks' Benning proud to see young core flourish in post-season run - Sportsnet.ca

“I know I spent maybe a little more money (on veterans) to help those young players learn how to play the right way. But once they learn the right way to play and get this playoff experience, they’re going to do the right things. They’re always going to score a lot of points in this league. But there’s a difference between putting up a lot of points and not having success as a team, and putting up maybe not as many points but doing the right things to win.”..Benning.

 

[GetFocht]

“I know I spent maybe a little more money (on veterans) to help those young players learn how to play the right way. But once they learn the right way to play and get this playoff experience, they’re going to do the right things. They’re always going to score a lot of points in this league. But there’s a difference between putting up a lot of points and not having success as a team, and putting up maybe not as many points but doing the right things to win.”..Benning.

For example, McDavid and Draisatl

 

[krutovsdonut]

“I know I spent maybe a little more money (on veterans) to help those young players learn how to play the right way. But once they learn the right way to play and get this playoff experience, they’re going to do the right things. They’re always going to score a lot of points in this league. But there’s a difference between putting up a lot of points and not having success as a team, and putting up maybe not as many points but doing the right things to win.”..Benning.

it's almost as if he had a plan after all.

maybe benning is orr in catch 22.

 

[The Drop]

$30+ mil on players to teach young guys “to play the right way”

And others are moving goal posts? Lol

 

[GetFocht]

$30+ mil on players to teach young guys “to play the right way”

And others are moving goal posts? Lol

Seems to be working, like any organization in any industry, it absolutely helps as a 20+ something year old to have mentorship, even more so in sports when you're a 20+ something year old exposed to millions of dollars.

I know it's hard to understand when most people have average 9-5 jobs that only work as a means to an end.

 

[GetFocht]

What's funny is that players themselves attribute mentorship as a part of their success, yet it gets so easily discredited here by anon forum posters.

 

[The Drop]

I remember when Prust was acquired to play the right way as well.
So was Gudbranson.

They worked out super well and taught these young Canucks a ton.

9-5ers prob don’t understand this though, you need to be a fan of Kool-Aid

 

[Gormo]

Roussel vs Minny G3
Sutter vs Minny G4
Motte vs STL G5
Virtanen vs STL G5
Motte vs STL G5
Beagle vs STL G6
Roussel vs STL G6
Motte vs STL G6
Virtanen vs VGK G6

9/46 goals are from the bottom 6.

So 19% has come from the bottom six, with most of that coming in two games vs STL.

Would be interested to see how that compares to other teams. Maybe it is good, I don't know. Would have to see.

Colorado has 56 goals, but for the sake of comparison lets exclude the defensemen who have 8 goals;

Im going by the lineup the Avs have iced tonight:

Burakovsky - 6
MacKinnon - 9
Rantanen 7
Landeskog - 2
Kadri - 8
Nichushkin 2
34 goals

Jost - 1
Compher - 3
Namestnikov 2
Nieto - 1
Bellemare - 2
O'Connor 0
10 goals


Injured/not in lineup
Donskoi 3
Calvert 1

So thats about 10-13 out of 48 since Im not sure Donskoi is top 9 or top six, but that's pretty close.

Mind you the Avs are generally considered to be a deep and dynamic offensive team.