Man Mountain's partner

[Belial]

Then why bring it up? Do we have an ovechkin on our team?

The point I was making is that Alzner is not this offensive black hole that drags the whole team down when he's on the ice. He might not carry the puck, score a ton of goals or make amazing passes out there but he makes plays that are effective and safe. He'll move the puck to a forward or to his partner and they'll do the rest.

 

[Scriptor]

Then why bring it up? Do we have an ovechkin on our team?

No. But maybe we have a speedy forward like Drouin, Danault or Byron that carries the puck up the ice and enters the O-zone in possession of the puck long enough to create some offensive opportunity that leads to a goal. Maybe that even happens after receiving a pass from Alzner in our own zone or as the forward was leaving the zone. Maybe even on a few occasions during the year...

Alzner isn't an offensive dynamo on the back end by any stretch, but to reduce things to, "Do we have an Ovechkin"? Really? Are we doing that in response to the other poster's claims which were admittedly on the heavy side?

It's not enough to say that it's a stretch a mile long to claim that Alzner will be able to generate a lot of offense? Even enough offense for the role he would be taking? Maybe add that he likely won't get a ton of primary assists on any goals that are scored, that's for sure...

And maybe agree -- or at least concede -- that Alzner has been known to have a decent first pass and be relatively mobile to not get caught flat-footed every other time he sees the puck magically appear on the end of his stick? That this might only be good enough, offensively, if you're satisfied to not see him blindly clearing the puck in panic by the boards? That, again, it's much less than you'd expect from a first pairing partner...?

Maybe even keep a discussion going and state that this is just an example of why it's crucial that something work out from the GM's list of unconvincing maybes. Otherwise, Bergevin will still be in need of somehow using some of his precious Cap space to find a solution when options may be less available or more costly as injuries pile up during the season?.

Maybe insist that if Alzner is the Habs' solution for the first pairing, Schlemko will also be out of place alongside Petry, that you might've preferred to see Alzner alongside Petry, that his solid D and stay-at-home style would be a great complement for Petry's propensity to carry the puck as the team's sole remaining PMD?

Nah, never mind. Why bother being civil and actually holding a conversation with someone that doesn't just outright agree with everything you say? Suf-f-f-ffering s-s-s-sacotash!

I'm seemingly much too optimistic of late. Some days, I tell ya....

 

[WeThreeKings]

[/B]

No. But maybe we have a speedy forward like Drouin, Danault or Byron that carries the puck up the ice and enters the O-zone in possession of the puck long enough to create some offensive opportunity that leads to a goal. Maybe that even happens after receiving a pass from Alzner in our own zone or as the forward was leaving the zone. Maybe even on a few occasions during the year...

Alzner isn't an offensive dynamo on the back end by any stretch, but to reduce things to, "Do we have an Ovechkin"? Really? Are we doing that in response to the other poster's claims which were admittedly on the heavy side?

It's not enough to say that it's a stretch a mile long to claim that Alzner will be able to generate a lot of offense? Even enough offense for the role he would be taking? Maybe add that he likely won't get a ton of primary assists on any goals that are scored, that's for sure...

And maybe agree -- or at least concede -- that Alzner has been known to have a decent first pass and be relatively mobile to not get caught flat-footed every other time he sees the puck magically appear on the end of his stick? That this might only be good enough, offensively, if you're satisfied to not see him blindly clearing the puck in panic by the boards? That, again, it's much less than you'd expect from a first pairing partner...?

Maybe even keep a discussion going and state that this is just an example of why it's crucial that something work out from the GM's list of unconvincing maybes. Otherwise, Bergevin will still be in need of somehow using some of his precious Cap space to find a solution when options may be less available or more costly as injuries pile up during the season?.

Maybe insist that if Alzner is the Habs' solution for the first pairing, Schlemko will also be out of place alongside Petry, that you might've preferred to see Alzner alongside Petry, that his solid D and stay-at-home style would be a great complement for Petry's propensity to carry the puck as the team's sole remaining PMD?

Nah, never mind. Why bother being civil and actually holding a conversation with someone that doesn't just outright agree with everything you say? Suf-f-f-ffering s-s-s-sacotash!

I'm seemingly much too optimistic of late. Some days, I tell ya....

Alzner point production is paltry and thats playing behind one of the best regular season offensive teams.

He is an off the glass kind of guy. Or get it to my partner kind of guy. So is Weber, so is Benn.. so essentially, unless Alzner plays with Petry, there's no hope of getting out successfully.

But here's the rub. Alzner isn't a good skater. So I dump it into his corner and I have my retrieval forwards attack him while cutting off the lane to Petry. Killing the Habs possible transition, causing a turnover or simply stripping Alzner because of his lack of grip strength.

We do not have one puck moved on this Blueline as good as Orlov or Carlson. He will be playing with a defenseman worse than his normal pairing.

Outside of that. If you combined the talent of our entire center line, they wouldn't reach Kuznetsov, let alone Backstrom.

We do not have an Ovechkin.

Alzner is an old breed defenseman, who's PUBLICLY with his OWN admission BROKEN down. With a worse D core and a worse C line and a far more anemic offense.

He legitimately sucks.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The point I was making is that Alzner is not this offensive black hole that drags the whole team down when he's on the ice. He might not carry the puck, score a ton of goals or make amazing passes out there but he makes plays that are effective and safe. He'll move the puck to a forward or to his partner and they'll do the rest.

Well the numbers suggest that he is...

Apparently he had injury issues last year. Maybe he'll be a little better. But he's nowhere near Markov. For the life of me I can't figure out how this guy was some kind of priority for us.

 

[ECWHSWI]

The point I was making is that Alzner is not this offensive black hole that drags the whole team down when he's on the ice. He might not carry the puck, score a ton of goals or make amazing passes out there but he makes plays that are effective and safe. He'll move the puck to a forward or to his partner and they'll do the rest.

he's not an offensive blackhole cause he can chip the puck up trough the boards and make 5 ft passes to his D partner...


could standards be any lower, really...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No kidding, have 2 players ever been so similar in Style, Statistics, and Effectiveness as Chara and Weber?

Chara's been significantly better.

 

[Kafka]

It all depends on Jerabek status. And since no one here saw him play with the big guy, any opinion is equal to the other.

I voted Davidson as his main partner, but wouldn't be surprised to see Jerabek being paired with Weber at the end of the season on the PP and at 5-on-5.

The thing is that Weber perfect fit would be a fast skating puck moving defensman with some offense. Beaulieu had all the physical aspects required for that spot, but was missing a few key brain connections to occupy it properly.

That's why right now I feel that Davidson will be the main partner for Weber this Fall... but to be honnest, I expect each and every L-D-man to play with him at some point.

 

[TheBlindFan]

It all depends on Jerabek status. And since no one here saw him play with the big guy, any opinion is equal to the other.

I voted Davidson as his main partner, but wouldn't be surprised to see Jerabek being paired with Weber at the end of the season on the PP and at 5-on-5.

The thing is that Weber perfect fit would be a fast skating puck moving defensman with some offense. Beaulieu had all the physical aspects required for that spot, but was missing a few key brain connections to occupy it properly.

That's why right now I feel that Davidson will be the main partner for Weber this Fall... but to be honnest, I expect each and every L-D-man to play with him at some point.

Jerabek can go back to khl if he doesn t make the NHL. I beat you he will have a lot of chance to prove himself. Streit, Davidson, Morrow won't have that chance.

We need someone on the PP with Weber... Drouin? Jerabek if he can prove he can show is stuff in the nhl, schlemko or Streit.

On 5vs5 i think alzner may be with Weber.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Are you telling me that the guy that had the heaviest minutes on the team and the highest defensive starts % allowed more shots than some of his teammates? This is surprising... not.

To that degree? Yes, it should be. There is literally no regular (50+ games) defenseman that had a worse differential. Look at an actually good defensive defenseman like Hjalmarsson.

Weber also has a negative CF% rel. It's just a logical conclusion based on usage.

No, its not. At least not entirely. Its logical based on play style, since neither move are good puck movers. And even then, we're talking about several orders of magnitude worse here.

Yeah, if you look at those teammates you can easily conclude that Alzner was playing on the first pair in Washington. And here you have guys arguing he's not even a top 4 D...

No, because his ice-time clearly indicates that he wasn't on the top-pair. And the argument is that he isn't top-4 is that while he played top competition, he also got run over defensively and got carried offensively. Anyone can get their ***** pushed in against top competition, that's what Montreal used Emelin for.

I'm not advocating he should play with Weber, I want to see him with Petry, my point here is that he could easily play with Weber and that pair would be rock solid.

Defensively? Sure. But that pair wouldn't get out of their own zone all that much and handcuff offense and even strength. And considering the forwards they'd play with and Montreal's general lack of quality depth, its a problem.

 

[Captain Mountain]

The point I was making is that Alzner is not this offensive black hole that drags the whole team down when he's on the ice. He might not carry the puck, score a ton of goals or make amazing passes out there but he makes plays that are effective and safe. He'll move the puck to a forward or to his partner and they'll do the rest.

Considering the production, possession and scoring chance rates of the forwards with and without him, that's exactly the case.

And Montreal doesn't have the horses for Alzner to distribute the puck off the way your thinking of. Especially if he's partnered with another "effective and safe" partner in Weber.

 

[lamp9post]

Considering the production, possession and scoring chance rates of the forwards with and without him, that's exactly the case.

And Montreal doesn't have the horses for Alzner to distribute the puck off the way your thinking of. Especially if he's partnered with another "effective and safe" partner in Weber.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out. Under Julien, Boston always had a good defensive group despite the lack of puck movers so maybe our defensive composition will suit his style. Here's hoping anyway! Sure would be nice to have that legit #2 puck moving LD though.

 

[Wats]

It will be interesting to see how things shake out. Under Julien, Boston always had a good defensive group despite the lack of puck movers so maybe our defensive composition will suit his style. Here's hoping anyway! Sure would be nice to have that legit #2 puck moving LD though.

I'm not sure about that. Krug and Hamilton are better with the puck than anyone on the current Habs D core.

 

[Wats]

Chara's been significantly better.

We can only dream that Weber lasts as long as Chara.

 

[Captain Mountain]

It will be interesting to see how things shake out. Under Julien, Boston always had a good defensive group despite the lack of puck movers so maybe our defensive composition will suit his style. Here's hoping anyway! Sure would be nice to have that legit #2 puck moving LD though.

Julien is a great systems coach, his teams always have good possession numbers, if not scoring chance measures. But his best Boston teams had, in general, more transition ability from the backend than Montreal's current D. Chara has always been an underrated puckmover in his prime that Weber is not.

The main difference though is Bergeron, who is one of the best two-way centers the NHL has ever seen. Montreal has no forward that that can effect a game to the degree he does.

 

[Kant Think]

Alzner point production is paltry and thats playing behind one of the best regular season offensive teams.

He is an off the glass kind of guy. Or get it to my partner kind of guy. So is Weber, so is Benn.. so essentially, unless Alzner plays with Petry, there's no hope of getting out successfully.

But here's the rub. Alzner isn't a good skater. So I dump it into his corner and I have my retrieval forwards attack him while cutting off the lane to Petry. Killing the Habs possible transition, causing a turnover or simply stripping Alzner because of his lack of grip strength.

We do not have one puck moved on this Blueline as good as Orlov or Carlson. He will be playing with a defenseman worse than his normal pairing.

Outside of that. If you combined the talent of our entire center line, they wouldn't reach Kuznetsov, let alone Backstrom.

We do not have an Ovechkin.

Alzner is an old breed defenseman, who's PUBLICLY with his OWN admission BROKEN down. With a worse D core and a worse C line and a far more anemic offense.

He legitimately sucks.

I can't wait for October.

It's going to be glorious.

 

[David Suzuki]

The gang in March: Jordie Benn is the worst player in the entire league

the gang in August: Alzner is a black hole of production

 

[Kant Think]

In hindsight, trading Beaulieu looks even more ******** today.

Bergie really must've hated him bad.

 

[Captain Mountain]

The gang in March: Jordie Benn is the worst player in the entire league

the gang in August: Alzner is a black hole of production

Which gang? Because Benn has always had decent underlying numbers:

Not a worldbeater, but perfectly serviceable.

 

[Deebs]

Chara's been significantly better.

I have to disagree as I think their careers have been pretty much on par with each other at the same age. Now, Z has been on the better teams throughout his career, but nevertheless.

I'd give the edge offensively to Shea while Big Z holds it defensively.

If those two ever played together during their respective primes, it would be a greatest shutdown pair of all time

 

[WeThreeKings]

The gang in March: Jordie Benn is the worst player in the entire league

the gang in August: Alzner is a black hole of production

The gang in March: Benn is amazing, what a steal!

The gang in April: it doesn't matter that Benn was one of our worst D men in the playoffs! He was really good after being traded! That never happens to players!

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Chara's been significantly better.

Since Weber's rookie season ('05/06)

Goals:
Weber 183
Chara 147

Points/PPG:
Weber 485/0.58
Chara 472/0.53

Shots/Shots per game/%:
Weber 2235/2.66/8.2%
Chara 2288/2.57/6.4%

HR Point shares:
Weber 99.2
Chara 100.9

Norris finishes:
Weber DNF, DNF, 17, 4, 7, 2, 2, 8, 3, 4, 10, 6
Chara 4, 20, 3, 1, 8, 3, 3, 5, 2, DNF, DNF, DNF

Aside from actually winning the Norris once instead of finishing 2nd a second time, there is absolutely nothing "significantly better" one from the other, especially during their career overlap.

 

[Wats]

Since Weber's rookie season ('05/06)

Goals:
Weber 183
Chara 147

Points/PPG:
Weber 485/0.58
Chara 472/0.53

Shots/Shots per game/%:
Weber 2235/2.66/8.2%
Chara 2288/2.57/6.4%

HR Point shares:
Weber 99.2
Chara 100.9

Norris finishes:
Weber 17, 4, 7, 2, 2, 8, 3, 4, 10, 6
Chara 4, 20, 3, 1, 8, 3, 3, 5, 2

Aside from actually winning the Norris once instead of finishing 2nd a second time, there is absolutely nothing "significantly better" one from the other, especially during their career overlap.

What about the defense partners during those years and ES play of Chara. ES GA/60 and ES GF/60 over that time span for both? Weber definitely was better in 2017 for GA/60 at least.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Since Weber's rookie season ('05/06)

Goals:
Weber 183
Chara 147

Points/PPG:
Weber 485/0.58
Chara 472/0.53

Shots/Shots per game/%:
Weber 2235/2.66/8.2%
Chara 2288/2.57/6.4%

HR Point shares:
Weber 99.2
Chara 100.9

Norris finishes:
Weber 17, 4, 7, 2, 2, 8, 3, 4, 10, 6
Chara 4, 20, 3, 1, 8, 3, 3, 5, 2

Aside from actually winning the Norris once instead of finishing 2nd a second time, there is absolutely nothing "significantly better" one from the other, especially during their career overlap.

Yes, those are the only stats related to hockey. No others have merit. And HR point shares is definitely a real tested model and not a flawed model taken from another sport and randomly adapted to another sport. Things like possession, defensive metrics, xGF% have no bearing whatsoever. That is far from a complete graph. The timeframe also benefits Weber over Chara.

 

[Deebs]

What about the defense partners during those years and ES play of Chara. ES GA/60 and ES GF/60 over that time span for both? Weber definitely was better in 2017 for GA/60 at least.

You also need to take into account the quality of their respective teams during this time as well. So many factors to include

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Yes, those are the only stats related to hockey. No others have merit. And HR point shares is definitely a real tested model and not a flawed model taken from another sport and randomly adapted to another sport. Things like possession, defensive metrics, xGF% have no bearing whatsoever. That is far from a complete graph. The timeframe also benefits Weber over Chara.

They are certainly the most important metrics by which these guys are measured. Go ahead and add to it, then, instead of making lazy jabs at it. I'll grab another coffee.