Man Mountain's partner

[Lafleurs Guy]

He was better defensively by about the amount that Weber has been better offensively by the same stage of their careers. As of right now, obviously, Chara barely registers for comparison. There's no "much, much" between them in either direction. That's just foolish to suggest, and the only people I've seen exaggerate to that extent are the ones with the most blatantly obvious agendas/biases behind their posting.

Right... I must be biased.

And the numbers must be biased too. Thanks for playing.

Yeah, I mean, finishing in the top 10 of Norris voting literally every year since is probably not "great". Neither is consecutive 2nd team all-star finishes after Suter's departure. Or posting THE lowest GA numbers in the league this past season. Probably just "okay", when you think about it.

I couldn't care less about his GA numbers in front of Carey Price. Trotting out this old tired argument again is laughable, esp considering how it's been disproved repeatedly. Once again, his GA/60 numbers are dead even with his teammates over the years.

As for his Norris finishes... last year's a great example of why that's a flawed way to evaluate blueliners.

Maybe YOU keep saying his value comes mainly from his shot. Pretty sure he hasn't been anchoring all those PK duties over the years with the expectation his shot will come in handy, though, for just one example among many...

He's a mediocre penalty killer. Has been for a while now.

Feel free to rant on about things though, I'm out.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Right... I must be biased.

You are certainly among the most vocal in lamenting the loss of Subban (sparing no opportunity to downplay Weber as an asset along the way), as well as (on a largely related note) one of the most vocally critical of management. So yes. About as biased as you can be without resorting to completely making things up.

{abbreviated horse crap}... I'm out.

See ya.

 

[Deebs]

Chara was much, much better defensively.

Better, yeah I agree, but definitely not to the extent you're trying to push. That's bullocks.

 

[aresknights]

Weber has been so bad the last X yrs, he's been consistently been leaned on as a first pair D for TC in multiple events.
But yeah its his GA #s in front of Price in MTL that needs to be leaned on to prove he is a top notch defender? TC coulda picked any # of top D for 1st pair and toughest assignments but its Price carrying him lol.

 

[Wats]

You forget OJ's long history of touting GA/60 as an important stat.

Yeah, Chara definitely was among the elite offensively and defensively at ES during his prime. No slight to Weber, but if we are going to suggest those numbers have value then Chara reigns supreme (as per hockey reference):


Chara
07/08: 3.0GF, 2.4GA
08/09: 3.1GF, 2.2GA
09/10: 2.6GF, 1.8GA
10/11: 3.1GF, 1.9GA
11/12: 3.4GF, 2.2GA
12/13: 2.8GF, 1.9GA
13/14: 2.8GF, 1.7GA

Weber
07/08: 2.5GF, 2.6GA
08/09: 2.7GF, 2.6GA
09/10: 2.6GF, 2.6GA
10/11: 2.5GF, 2.4GA
11/12: 2.8GF, 2.0GA
12/13: 2.3GF, 2.3GA
13/14: 2.6GF, 2.8GA
14/15: 2.6GF, 2.2GA
15/16: 2.4GF, 2.8GA
16/17: 2.2GF, 1.4GF

Weber is a superstar, but prime Chara was much better - he will make hall of fame.

 

[CapSpace]

How about a tryout to Wiz ?

 

[Scriptor]

How about a tryout to Wiz ?

Doesn't he make Streit look young? Also, not sure his defensive play would have Julien writing him X-Mas cards...

 

[Kant Think]

Yeah, Chara definitely was among the elite offensively and defensively at ES during his prime. No slight to Weber, but if we are going to suggest those numbers have value then Chara reigns supreme (as per hockey reference):


Chara
07/08: 3.0GF, 2.4GA
08/09: 3.1GF, 2.2GA
09/10: 2.6GF, 1.8GA
10/11: 3.1GF, 1.9GA
11/12: 3.4GF, 2.2GA
12/13: 2.8GF, 1.9GA
13/14: 2.8GF, 1.7GA

Weber
07/08: 2.5GF, 2.6GA
08/09: 2.7GF, 2.6GA
09/10: 2.6GF, 2.6GA
10/11: 2.5GF, 2.4GA
11/12: 2.8GF, 2.0GA
12/13: 2.3GF, 2.3GA
13/14: 2.6GF, 2.8GA
14/15: 2.6GF, 2.2GA
15/16: 2.4GF, 2.8GA
16/17: 2.2GF, 1.4GF

Weber is a superstar, but prime Chara was much better - he will make hall of fame.

It's not even the same ballpark.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah, Chara definitely was among the elite offensively and defensively at ES during his prime. No slight to Weber, but if we are going to suggest those numbers have value then Chara reigns supreme (as per hockey reference):


Chara
07/08: 3.0GF, 2.4GA
08/09: 3.1GF, 2.2GA
09/10: 2.6GF, 1.8GA
10/11: 3.1GF, 1.9GA
11/12: 3.4GF, 2.2GA
12/13: 2.8GF, 1.9GA
13/14: 2.8GF, 1.7GA

Weber
07/08: 2.5GF, 2.6GA
08/09: 2.7GF, 2.6GA
09/10: 2.6GF, 2.6GA
10/11: 2.5GF, 2.4GA
11/12: 2.8GF, 2.0GA
12/13: 2.3GF, 2.3GA
13/14: 2.6GF, 2.8GA
14/15: 2.6GF, 2.2GA
15/16: 2.4GF, 2.8GA
16/17: 2.2GF, 1.4GF

Weber is a superstar, but prime Chara was much better - he will make hall of fame.

They may be close by reputation but that's where it ends.

 

[MXD]

Those numbers will get significantly closer now that Weber plays for a Julien-coached team though.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Those numbers will get significantly closer now that Weber plays for a Julien-coached team though.

"Strange".

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

They may be close by reputation but that's where it ends.

Except for size/strength combination, rare skills for big men, style, role/playing time, scoring, and rankings vs. their peers. All are close, but minor details, of course.

But no one is saying that they are equal. The disagreement is with the obviously off-base opinion that it isn't close or comparable. It is. Both guys are top 5, probably even top 3 guys vs. their peers in a pool of hundreds and hundreds of defensemen over the years, and you couldn't hope to find two guys whose similar advantages led to similar styles of play and effectiveness. You put both guys out there to STOP goals, but they end up your most productive defenseman offensively, too, because of what they can do. Only Weber ever led his team in scoring, though, and he did it in consecutive seasons. That alone should highlight a huge difference between those Bruins and Predators squads over the years.

 

[Kant Think]

Those numbers will get significantly closer now that Weber plays for a Julien-coached team though.

Let me reformulate the above for you.

Those numbers may get somewhat closer, or not,now that Weber plays for a Julien-coached team though.

Now that's a bit more objective.

 

[Kant Think]

]Except for size/strength[/B] combination, rare skills for big men, style, role/playing time, scoring, and rankings vs. their peers. All are close, but minor details, of course.

There's about 5 inches difference between them, it's like saying that a 5"11 defenseman and Weber have the same height advantage.

Also, Chara was the strongest guy in the league, strongest.

Their skill set combination are not comparable.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Why are people so quick to dismiss Weber as a defenseman? I find the last two pages nonsensical, it is very reasonable to state that Weber and Chara are in the same tier, suggesting otherwise is dishonest or asinine. Can't we just be happy that we have a top 10ish D in Weber? (especially considering he's our best D by far, sigh)

 

[MXD]

Those numbers will get significantly closer now that Weber plays for a Julien-coached team though.

...And they kindof actually did after one season where Weber played in circumstances that are reasonably close to Chara's, so the whole "may or not" is pretty much some kind of "both sides" crap.

 

[V13]

It all depends on Jerabek status. And since no one here saw him play with the big guy, any opinion is equal to the other.

I voted Davidson as his main partner, but wouldn't be surprised to see Jerabek being paired with Weber at the end of the season on the PP and at 5-on-5.

The thing is that Weber perfect fit would be a fast skating puck moving defensman with some offense. Beaulieu had all the physical aspects required for that spot, but was missing a few key brain connections to occupy it properly.

That's exactly what Jerabek is supposed to be. A fast and mobile left handed D who can produce some offense from the blue line.

Jakub Jerabek

Assets: Is mobile and an excellent puck mover from behind the blueline. Can also post excellent offensive numbers at lower levels. Can play a physical brand of hockey, as well.

But yeah i agree that for now the guy is a wild card. He never played in North America so we have no idea if he's going to adapt to the NHL. I pray that he blossom in the league because from the sound of it he would be the perfect partner for Weber. The Shea would also help him to cover some of his mistakes due to NHL inexperience.

So our best bet is Jerabek if he pans out at the NHL level. Now all we have to do is hope that the guy can make it. Finding a PMD LHD that would cost the team no assets would be god given for the Habs at this point. Hopefully Jerabek can become that guy.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

There's about 5 inches difference between them, it's like saying that a 5"11 defenseman and Weber have the same height advantage.

No it's not, because 6'4" 232 lbs still puts you in a very high percentile vs. others, especially #1 defensemen. The guy's referred to as "Man Mountain", lol, and there aren't many guys filling in the gap between "Mountain" and "Giant" (Chara).

Also, Chara was the strongest guy in the league, strongest.

Again, that's all fine and good. But we're still talking about two guys at the top of that list, not one at the top and one somewhere near the middle, or whatever ridiculous notion would make it "not even close".

Their skill set combination are not comparable.

Easy enough to say, it seems, but demonstrably and observably false.

 

[V13]

Why are people so quick to dismiss Weber as a defenseman? I find the last two pages nonsensical, it is very reasonable to state that Weber and Chara are in the same tier, suggesting otherwise is dishonest or asinine. Can't we just be happy that we have a top 10ish D in Weber? (especially considering he's our best D by far, sigh)

Some people have been dismissing Weber since "The Trade". It seems that they can't accept that the guy is a solid #1 defensemen.

If we didn't trade you know who for him and traded a couple prospects and a few picks for him instead we probably wouldn't even have this discussion.

 

[Price is Wright]

Why are people so quick to dismiss Weber as a defenseman? I find the last two pages nonsensical, it is very reasonable to state that Weber and Chara are in the same tier, suggesting otherwise is dishonest or asinine. Can't we just be happy that we have a top 10ish D in Weber? (especially considering he's our best D by far, sigh)

I always felt he was overrated. That doesn't mean he should be dismissed, but I wouldn't be able to call him top 10 in the league.

Top 10 in the east? Sure I can do that. Heck I might go top 5 in the east.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I always felt he was overrated. That doesn't mean he should be dismissed, but I wouldn't be able to call him top 10 in the league.

Top 10 in the east? Sure I can do that.

I can get behind debating Weber's merits in the present (i.e where he currently ranks among Ds right now) but I don't see the point in trashing him/his career when a) he spent 90% of his career elsewhere so let's not pretend people being involved in this discussion were watching him all the time with the Preds b) Chara was public enemy #1 for a long time so why turn him into this mythical figure compared to Weber and c) when you compare the numbers, they're practically in the same ballpark give or take certain stats (that's without considering how much better the Bruins were compared to the Preds).

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Some people have been dismissing Weber since "The Trade". It seems that they can't accept that the guy is a solid #1 defensemen.

If we didn't trade you know who for him and traded a couple prospects and a few picks for him instead we probably wouldn't even have this discussion.

Yep it truly is a shame, I have soured big time on Bergevin but I still find it puzzling how some people are taking their disdain for the trade on the player we got in return instead of solely putting it on the GM.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Some people have been dismissing Weber since "The Trade". It seems that they can't accept that the guy is a solid #1 defensemen.

Dismissed relative to whom? Chara? That's not ridiculous. Chara was (and is) a unicorn, a combination of freakish strength, a booming shot and excellent puck movement. But its pretty uncommon for people here to think Weber isn't a number 1 D-man.

If we didn't trade you know who for him and traded a couple prospects and a few picks for him instead we probably wouldn't even have this discussion.

Isn't that the point though? Was Dennis Savard not an excellent C in Montreal? Was Recchi not a very good forward? Any player that is part of a blockbuster trade will always be judged by the trade.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Was Dennis Savard not an excellent D in Montreal?

Nope. Wasn't that great of a centre at that point, either.

 

[Price is Wright]

Yep it truly is a shame, I have soured big time on Bergevin but I still find it puzzling how some people are taking their disdain for the trade on the player we got in return instead of solely putting it on the GM.

Prior to the trade I was saying Poile needed to find a dumb GM who overvalued Weber's intangibles and get a kings ransom for him before he started to slow down.

And then Bergevin traded Subban for him.