Man Mountain's partner

[Fozz]

In any zone. The Weber-Emelin pairing was downright terrible at generating anything from our goal-line out.

That I agree with and I'm glad Emelin is out of the picture and replaced by Alzner.

Mind you, while being a poor pairing offensively, they did have a net positive of 0.2 point per 60 min, EV.

 

[Kant Think]

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO.

This is so wrong I'm at a loss for words.


So wrong.......

 

[Kant Think]

Remember, the primary responsibility of a defenseman is to limit goals. Creating offense is bonus and very few NHL defenseman can.

Why remember something wrong?

Of course if you believe this load you must be very satisfied with Bergevin.

 

[G0bias]

Continuing the conversation from the trade thread that was locked. I feel it is better to continue in this thread rather than the new trade thread as it is a bit off topic for that thread:



That is exactly what you are doing! First you said:



Now you're doubling down on that argument by saying:



How can you possibly make this argument when comparing two totally different sets of statistics? I mean, how many more Norris votes would Weber need to be closer to Burns than the 15 point gap that separates Marchand and McDavid? The question is ridiculous!

All we can say is that Weber finished 6th in Norris voting. No more, no less. But we can't diminish it just because there is a gap in points between #6 and #1. There is a gap like that between #6 and #1 every year and yet every year excellent defensemen finish 6th in Norris voting.

Lol that's the point!
Why did you bring up regular season totals to an awards discussion. The argument you tried to make didn't hold because the sets are incompatible from one another. If you had brought up an other voting-based ranking to compare it, then it would hold some water.
Only used your metrics to make a point how flawed the example you used was. Don't see what's so difficult to understand here.

This is clearly going nowhere. Let's move on yeah?

 

[WeThreeKings]

This is so wrong I'm at a loss for words.


So wrong.......

Oh god.. that's awful
LMAO

 

[lamp9post]

Lol that's the point!
Why did you bring up regular season totals to an awards discussion. The argument you tried to make didn't hold because the sets are incompatible from one another. If you had brought up an other voting-based ranking to compare it, then it would hold some water.
Only used your metrics to make a point how flawed the example you used was. Don't see what's so difficult to understand here.

This is clearly going nowhere. Let's move on yeah?

I said:

Oh please...

The poster said that Weber was 6th in Norris voting, which is a fact. At no point did he make any comparisons between Weber and Burns.

If I pointed out that Brad Marchand was 6th in scoring this past year, would you ridicule me for comparing him to Connor McDavid?


My point was that it is ridiculous to diminish someones ranking by making a comparison to #1 on that ranking. Saying Weber is 6th in Norris voting is by no means the same as saying "Weber almost won the Norris". No one said that. No comparisons were made between Weber and the Norris winner. That doesn't mean 6th in Norris voting is meaningless.

You want to bring up another voting-based metric - ok, let's look at Hart voting. McDavid finished 1st with 1604 points. Pat Kane finished 6th with 206 points.

What is your response to the fact that Pat Kane finished 6th? Would it be, "wow, that's impressive to be so highly ranked" or would it be "so what, he's almost 1400 points behind McDavid so it doesn't matter"? Is the fact that Kane finished 6th in Hart voting meaningless or poorly representative of his talent or impact on the ice?

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO. This whole notion that Markov generates offense 5/5 play is getting out of control. First people say they want a PMD (elite skating level like Subban) but then say Markov is a PMD. How? By playing smart and making passes. Heck Weber does this and So does Alzner.

The reasons why the Preds were so good in the playoffs this past year was because their D got the puck out of their own end and made the simple plays. They didn't skate the puck out, they passed it or dumped it out. Alzner can do this very well and he as done this very well in the past.

There's a lot of wrongs in this paragraph.. Geez.. Holy... godd..

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Remember, the primary responsibility of a defenseman is to limit goals. Creating offense is bonus and very few NHL defenseman can.

Come on now...

Why are you doing this...

It's not a just a simple bonus. For a first pair, you need at least offensive D.

Nobody cares about the defensive defenseman. Nobody cares about the Komisarek, Doug Murray or Hal Gill.. The best defenseman are Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque etc...

You need to have offense to be considered a complete defenseman.

You can't have a top pair of D playing 25min+, generating no offense.

The best defenseman in the league are the offensive one. The most expensive Ds in the league are good offensively. The Norris winner is good both side of the ice but mostly offensively.

 

[CauZuki]

This is so wrong I'm at a loss for words.


So wrong.......

Markov can open at least 10 pickle jars a minute. How many can Alzner open?

 

[NobleSix]

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO. This whole notion that Markov generates offense 5/5 play is getting out of control. First people say they want a PMD (elite skating level like Subban) but then say Markov is a PMD. How? By playing smart and making passes. Heck Weber does this and So does Alzner.

The reasons why the Preds were so good in the playoffs this past year was because their D got the puck out of their own end and made the simple plays. They didn't skate the puck out, they passed it or dumped it out. Alzner can do this very well and he as done this very well in the past.

Holy ****.

I can't believe what I just read. The mental gymnastics going on in here is at a level that I have not seen before. Incredible.

 

[G0bias]

I said:



What is your response to the fact that Pat Kane finished 6th? Would it be, "wow, that's impressive to be so highly ranked" or would it be "so what, he's almost 1400 points behind McDavid so it doesn't matter"? Is the fact that Kane finished 6th in Hart voting meaningless or poorly representative of his talent or impact on the ice?

I'd say its a better example, like I said.

Then again Kane does have 70 top5 votes compared to Weber's 45. And was 22 top5 votes away from the 3rd spot held by Bobrovsky. Whereas there's 112 top5 votes separating Weber from the 3rd spot.
Nevermind the fact the player's respective teams are very much considered in the voting process for the Hart, while not so much for the Norris.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Dude, Alzner's GF/60 last year was 2.8 while Markov was at 2.7.

Yes, the Caps have a much better offense but the point here is that offense happens when Alzner is on the ice, it's not like the team gets hammered in their own zone and there's 0 offense going on.

Relative stats. Alzner's CF% re. was -7.5. The team very clear shot more and allowed fewer shots with him off (although usage plays a role):

Alzner played really tough minutes, but was also ineffective in those minutes. Offense happens when he's on the ice because he plays with elite or near elite players.

He also played pretty much exclusively with play-driving D like Niskanen and Carlson and Weber is not that type of D. His most common forward linemates were Backstrom, Ovechkin, Johansson, Oshie, Kuznetsov and Williams. Is it any surprise that he put up points?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO. This whole notion that Markov generates offense 5/5 play is getting out of control. First people say they want a PMD (elite skating level like Subban) but then say Markov is a PMD. How? By playing smart and making passes. Heck Weber does this and So does Alzner.

The reasons why the Preds were so good in the playoffs this past year was because their D got the puck out of their own end and made the simple plays. They didn't skate the puck out, they passed it or dumped it out. Alzner can do this very well and he as done this very well in the past.

You are way, way off base here.

 

[Belial]

Relative stats. Alzner's CF% re. was -7.5. The team very clear shot more and allowed fewer shots with him off (although usage plays a role):

Alzner played really tough minutes, but was also ineffective in those minutes. Offense happens when he's on the ice because he plays with elite or near elite players.

He also played pretty much exclusively with play-driving D like Niskanen and Carlson and Weber is not that type of D. His most common forward linemates were Backstrom, Ovechkin, Johansson, Oshie, Kuznetsov and Williams. Is it any surprise that he put up points?

Are you telling me that the guy that had the heaviest minutes on the team and the highest defensive starts % allowed more shots than some of his teammates? This is surprising... not.

Weber also has a negative CF% rel. It's just a logical conclusion based on usage.

Yeah, if you look at those teammates you can easily conclude that Alzner was playing on the first pair in Washington. And here you have guys arguing he's not even a top 4 D...

I'm not advocating he should play with Weber, I want to see him with Petry, my point here is that he could easily play with Weber and that pair would be rock solid.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

My point is related to using your selected "important metrics" as means to compare Boychuk/Petry/Alzner. That does not mean to compare them to superior defensemen, it is just using stats that you yourself identified as important to prove they are better than Boychuk in every way.

What is the point of using these metrics to compare Weber/Chara if they don't even matter enough to use to compare the quality of secondary defensemen.

Secondary defensemen don't have primary roles, so why would you evaluate them the exact same way? Definitive #1 in all situations defensemen, no internal contest, vs. guys who probably "belong" on a 2nd pairing, but have played higher and lower from case to case... same exact measuring stick, huh? Okey dokey.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

The best defensive pair in the league that kills all offense is a net-negative.

Except last year, of course, when even Emelin-Weber was a net positive. Emelin-Petry, however, wasn't.

 

[Scriptor]

Except last year, of course, when even Emelin-Weber was a net positive. Emelin-Petry, however, wasn't.

 

[Link67]

Are you telling me that the guy that had the heaviest minutes on the team and the highest defensive starts % allowed more shots than some of his teammates? This is surprising... not.

Weber also has a negative CF% rel. It's just a logical conclusion based on usage.

Yeah, if you look at those teammates you can easily conclude that Alzner was playing on the first pair in Washington. And here you have guys arguing he's not even a top 4 D...

I'm not advocating he should play with Weber, I want to see him with Petry, my point here is that he could easily play with Weber and that pair would be rock solid.

Don't be silly now, that would imply Bergevin signed a guy capable of playing on the top pair for under 5 million a season, his haters will have none of that crazy talk. The negative nancys around here would be up in arms about such a preposterous scenario. Imagine if Alzner actually comes here and plays like the top pair guy he was on a great team like Washington, geez, some people would be up all night trying to figure out a way to spin that as a failure.

 

[respect the D]

Both Seidenberg and Boychuk are miles better than any of Montreal's current left defensemen.

And Shea Weber is not, and never has been, nearly the player Zdeno Chara was.

that last line is F-ing hilarious. All props to Zdeno..but Weber nothing near Chara?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

that last line is F-ing hilarious. All props to Zdeno..but Weber nothing near Chara?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zdeno Chara was probably the best defenseman in the world for a considerable chunk of time after Lidstrom went down. He was probably the best player on team that won one cup and spent a fair amount of time as a fringe cup contender.

Weber has never been close to that level of performance. He's not a guy that ever carried a defense on his back like Chara did. At best he's formed strong pairings with another star defenseman. People in the press keep giving him some Norris votes, true. But that's not a process I have any respect for and I don't think anyone else should either.


Likewise, the players OJ derided, Seidenberg and Boychuk, had long careers as good two-way top 4 defensemen. Better players than Alzner was last season or any of the other humps Montreal has at LD (maybe not as good as Petry, but Petry is on the right side and not a particularly viable partner to Weber).

 

[Link67]

that last line is F-ing hilarious. All props to Zdeno..but Weber nothing near Chara?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No kidding, have 2 players ever been so similar in Style, Statistics, and Effectiveness as Chara and Weber?

Granted Chara was likely a bit better in his Prime than Weber, but holy crap not even close is the furthest thing from reality, it couldn't be any closer. their Nationality and Height is about the only thing that isn't near between them, the rest is bordering on Mirror image.

Devastating Shots, Intimidation, Physicality, A great blend of Offense and Defense, Great Positioning, in the Norris conversation for years, the list goes on and on of the Strengths and Skills these 2 Share.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Come on now...

Why are you doing this...

It's not a just a simple bonus. For a first pair, you need at least offensive D.

Nobody cares about the defensive defenseman. Nobody cares about the Komisarek, Doug Murray or Hal Gill.. The best defenseman are Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque etc...

You need to have offense to be considered a complete defenseman.

You can't have a top pair of D playing 25min+, generating no offense.

The best defenseman in the league are the offensive one. The most expensive Ds in the league are good offensively. The Norris winner is good both side of the ice but mostly offensively.

yeah but very few in the NHL can...oh wait maybe she meant very few on the habs can.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Weber all offense? Are you saying that he's a none-factor in the o-zone without Markov?

Weber got most of his points with the man advantage.

Dude, Alzner's GF/60 last year was 2.8 while Markov was at 2.7.

Yes, the Caps have a much better offense but the point here is that offense happens when Alzner is on the ice, it's not like the team gets hammered in their own zone and there's 0 offense going on.

So now the theme is Alzner is better than Markov for offence. You don't think you are stretching it a little thin to defend this move do you?

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO. This whole notion that Markov generates offense 5/5 play is getting out of control. First people say they want a PMD (elite skating level like Subban) but then say Markov is a PMD. How? By playing smart and making passes. Heck Weber does this and So does Alzner.

The reasons why the Preds were so good in the playoffs this past year was because their D got the puck out of their own end and made the simple plays. They didn't skate the puck out, they passed it or dumped it out. Alzner can do this very well and he as done this very well in the past.

Everything here is wrong as if you didn't watch the playoffs, nor any habs games. Someone has gotten talking points because now multiple posters are pretending Markov is worse than Alzner on offence.

Remember, the primary responsibility of a defenseman is to limit goals. Creating offense is bonus and very few NHL defenseman can.

NO its not. Really as a dman who was very defensive they still ask you to improve your O to help the team. It is NOT a bonus.

 

[Belial]

So now the theme is Alzner is better than Markov for offence. You don't think you are stretching it a little thin to defend this move do you?

GF/60 is not an individual stat. I didn't see anyone saying that Alzner is going to bring more offensive production than Markov.

 

[Doc McKenna]

GF/60 is not an individual stat. I didn't see anyone saying that Alzner is going to bring more offensive production than Markov.

Then why bring it up? Do we have an ovechkin on our team?