Man Mountain's partner

[De Montreal]

As much as I wish we could have had Alzner - Petry as a second pairing, it sont happen. Alzner will be forced into 1st line duty and Petry Will fine himself with a lesser partner

The upside is that Alzner I think can mesh well with anyone. He is not a puck mover but, not unlike Weber, he is not a bad skater at all. I hope they play with Baron, Drouin or someone with speed who can bring in the rush in the offensive zone.

Alzner - Weber
Schlemko - Petry
Benn - Davidson
Streit

That being said I'm stil curious about Jerabek and Morrow

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Simple, you put value in those numbers to having importance to how good they are compared to their peers. Otherwise, why bring those numbers up in response to a post suggesting Chara was better than Weber?

The exact wording was:

Shea Weber is not, and never has been, nearly the player Zdeno Chara was.

which is demonstrably false, given how they both rank vs. their peers in several important metrics while both being physical outliers who are/were used in almost the exact same way by their respective teams and went about their jobs quite similarly on the ice.

You put value in goals, points, icetime, physicality, shot power, their ability to play on special teams, having above average skating and ability to make plays with puck for their size. These are characteristics you brought up as key elements of what made Weber/Chara stand out among their peers and how they were comparable in how good they were.

I was merely asking a comparison between Alzner/Petry and Boychuk using the characteristics you provided.

Those are just some of the many areas in which Weber/Chara are comparable, and again, that in now way serves as a measuring stick for the abilities of the other 3 as they aren't even in the same category of player for comparison to begin with. Suffice to say, though, there are myriad reasons why no one would believe that Boychuk would walk onto our team as #2 defenseman this year like you claimed, or like this post suggested:

Both Seidenberg and Boychuk are miles better than any of Montreal's current left defensemen.

Miles better, lol.

 

[Peanut]

Simple, you put value in those numbers to having importance to how good they are compared to their peers. Otherwise, why bring those numbers up in response to a post suggesting Chara was better than Weber?

You put value in goals, points, icetime, physicality, shot power, their ability to play on special teams, having above average skating and ability to make plays with puck for their size. These are characteristics you brought up as key elements of what made Weber/Chara stand out among their peers and how they were comparable in how good they were.

I was merely asking a comparison between Alzner/Petry and Boychuk using the characteristics you provided.

Stop making sense! lol

 

[MaxDummy]

I feel like Morrow will either be Weber's partner or in the AHL, no middle ground for him.

You are right and it's ridiculous

 

[WeThreeKings]

He's not a better skater or playmaker than Petry (nor Schlemko, for that matter, whatever the points say), he's not a better defender than Alzner, and fyi Petry outscored, out-hit, and out-blocked Boychuk last year. Also call me when Boychuk is able to stay in the lineup for a whole year... 33 years old, and yet to play a full season... "better"...

Are we arguing who is better between Boychuk and Alzner or Boychuk vs. a hybrid of Petry, Alzner and Schlemko?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Are we arguing who is better between Boychuk and Alzner or Boychuk vs. a hybrid of Petry, Alzner and Schlemko?

Apparently we're arguing about whether or not Boychuk would walk in ahead of any of them in our depth chart right now, and for the myriad reasons expressed, I say he wouldn't.

 

[G0bias]

Apparently we're arguing about whether or not Boychuk would walk in ahead of any of them in our depth chart right now, and for the myriad reasons expressed, I say he wouldn't.

Petry isn't part of our LD depth chart. So I don't know why you keep including him here.
Besides I think everyone agrees he's better than Boychuk. TTGP's point stands, he's better than any of our current left defensemen.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Petry isn't part of our LD depth chart. So I don't know why he's part of the conversation. Besides I think everyone agrees he's better than Boychuk. Although Boychuk might have the slight edge in the offensive zone and physicality.

Hasn't been... Julien found a way to put both Seidenberg and Boychuk with Chara at different times though, despite one being LHD and the other RHD. If, for whatever reason, all these guys were in the same locker room and the goal was to put the best two defensemen together on the top pairing, I have little doubt it would be Petry-Weber - whether that ultimately makes the most sense is beside the point. More to the point, under the same hypothetical situation I still see Alzner or Schlemko getting those minutes ahead of Boychuk as things stand today, but obviously some disagree. Because reasons.

 

[G0bias]

Hasn't been... Julien found a way to put both Seidenberg and Boychuk with Chara at different times though, despite one being LHD and the other RHD. If, for whatever reason, all these guys were in the same locker room and the goal was to put the best two defensemen together on the top pairing, I have little doubt it would be Petry-Weber - whether that ultimately makes the most sense is beside the point. More to the point, under the same hypothetical situation I still see Alzner or Schlemko getting those minutes ahead of Boychuk as things stand today, but obviously some disagree. Because reasons.

The only reason Petry would be considered an option on the left side to begin with is because of the abysmal state of the current LD. If Boychuck was here there would be no need for Petry to play his off-side.
Just like Julien felt no need to put Petry on Weber's left side last playoffs despite him outplaying Markov. So again, irrelevant.
Our entire left side blows, but obviously some disagree. Because reasons.

 

[Wats]

The exact wording was:

which is demonstrably false, given how they both rank vs. their peers in several important metrics while both being physical outliers who are/were used in almost the exact same way by their respective teams and went about their jobs quite similarly on the ice.

Those are just some of the many areas in which Weber/Chara are comparable, and again, that in now way serves as a measuring stick for the abilities of the other 3 as they aren't even in the same category of player for comparison to begin with. Suffice to say, though, there are myriad reasons why no one would believe that Boychuk would walk onto our team as #2 defenseman this year like you claimed, or like this post suggested:



Miles better, lol.

My point is related to using your selected "important metrics" as means to compare Boychuk/Petry/Alzner. That does not mean to compare them to superior defensemen, it is just using stats that you yourself identified as important to prove they are better than Boychuk in every way.

What is the point of using these metrics to compare Weber/Chara if they don't even matter enough to use to compare the quality of secondary defensemen.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Hopefully Jerabek can handle it (he probably wont). It'll probably be Alzner and god help us if that's the case.

 

[Fozz]

Mete shocks everyone in training camp and gets the gig.

 

[Belial]

Hopefully Jerabek can handle it (he probably wont). It'll probably be Alzner and god help us if that's the case.

Even if that happens and it's Alzner who ends up with Weber, that pair would probably be the best defensive pair in the entire league! Yes, God help us...

 

[Captain Mountain]

Even if that happens and it's Alzner who ends up with Weber, that pair would probably be the best defensive pair in the entire league! Yes, God help us...

The best defensive pair in the league that kills all offense is a net-negative.

 

[Fozz]

The best defensive pair in the league that kills all offense is a net-negative.

Weber all offense? Are you saying that he's a none-factor in the o-zone without Markov?

 

[G0bias]

Weber all offense? Are you saying that he's a none-factor in the o-zone without Markov?

In any zone. The Weber-Emelin pairing was downright terrible at generating anything from our goal-line out.

 

[Belial]

The best defensive pair in the league that kills all offense is a net-negative.

Dude, Alzner's GF/60 last year was 2.8 while Markov was at 2.7.

Yes, the Caps have a much better offense but the point here is that offense happens when Alzner is on the ice, it's not like the team gets hammered in their own zone and there's 0 offense going on.

 

[Kant Think]

Weber all offense? Are you saying that he's a none-factor in the o-zone without Markov?

What he's saying is that a Weber-Alzner pair will rarely REACH the o-zone at even strength.

 

[G0bias]

Dude, Alzner's GF/60 last year was 2.8 while Markov was at 2.7.

Yes, the Caps have a much better offense but the point here is that offense happens when Alzner is on the ice, it's not like the team gets hammered in their own zone and there's 0 offense going on.

This should answer your question.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This should answer your question.

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO. This whole notion that Markov generates offense 5/5 play is getting out of control. First people say they want a PMD (elite skating level like Subban) but then say Markov is a PMD. How? By playing smart and making passes. Heck Weber does this and So does Alzner.

The reasons why the Preds were so good in the playoffs this past year was because their D got the puck out of their own end and made the simple plays. They didn't skate the puck out, they passed it or dumped it out. Alzner can do this very well and he as done this very well in the past.

 

[Belial]

This should answer your question.

No, it doesn't answer anything because if the narrative some of you are trying to sell around here where Alzner is a complete offensive black hole and there's close to nothing happening offensively when he's on the ice his numbers would've been a lot lower compared to all those offensive juggernauts PMD's on that Washington roster.

And I'm not even mentioning he was used heavily in the defensive zone and against top competition all the time.

Here are the stats for the other guys:

Orlov 3.1
Orpik 3.0
Schmidt 3.0
Alzner 2.8
Niskanen 2.8
Carlson 2.7
Shattenkirk 2.5

So?

 

[Habs Halifax]

In any zone. The Weber-Emelin pairing was downright terrible at generating anything from our goal-line out.

Remember, the primary responsibility of a defenseman is to limit goals. Creating offense is bonus and very few NHL defenseman can.

 

[Scriptor]

This should answer your question.

Actually, all it answers is that, with Alzner on the ice -- even if he sucks offensively as some suggest -- offense can still be generated by talented offensive forwards. As far as I know, Alzner wouldn't be playing 60 minutes with weber on the ice and, as bad as some like depicting the Habs as being, there are talented offensive forwards on this team as well.

The drama, the drama...

 

[lamp9post]

...

Continuing the conversation from the trade thread that was locked. I feel it is better to continue in this thread rather than the new trade thread as it is a bit off topic for that thread:

Bigger difference in terms of what?
Because going by your own parameters (difference in number of Top5 votes vs difference in regular season points) then I don't think it. It simply IS. Those are the numbers you brought up; regular season points between Marchand and McDavid.

In that context, yes Marchand's 85pts were closer to McDavid's 100 then Weber's 45 top5 D votes versus Burns' 167, who had nearly four times more.

That was the point. You can't compare regular points with award voting points. Because there is no empirical method to value number of top5 votes versus regular season points. But you did and in that case were wrong.

That is exactly what you are doing! First you said:

It doesn't hold weight when the winner has 1337 more votes than him. That's an exponentially larger gap than the 15 points separating Marchand from McDavid.

Now you're doubling down on that argument by saying:

In that context, yes Marchand's 85pts were closer to McDavid's 100 then Weber's 45 top5 D votes versus Burns' 167, who had nearly four times more.

How can you possibly make this argument when comparing two totally different sets of statistics? I mean, how many more Norris votes would Weber need to be closer to Burns than the 15 point gap that separates Marchand and McDavid? The question is ridiculous!

All we can say is that Weber finished 6th in Norris voting. No more, no less. But we can't diminish it just because there is a gap in points between #6 and #1. There is a gap like that between #6 and #1 every year and yet every year excellent defensemen finish 6th in Norris voting.

 

[G0bias]

The only major difference between Alzner and Markov is ablity to quarterback a PP IMO. This whole notion that Markov generates offense 5/5 play is getting out of control. First people say they want a PMD (elite skating level like Subban) but then say Markov is a PMD. How? By playing smart and making passes. Heck Weber does this and So does Alzner.

The reasons why the Preds were so good in the playoffs this past year was because their D got the puck out of their own end and made the simple plays. They didn't skate the puck out, they passed it or dumped it out. Alzner can do this very well and he as done this very well in the past.

You mean Carlson.