New York Islanders: Lou Lamoriello Discussion

[MJF]

Geez, what happened here? I feel like the author Andrew Greeley, who was purported to be famous for starting an argument and then leaving the room.

It's obvious that some of us think Hickey is terrible and some of us think he's not as bad as that, but hopefully we all want him to do as good a job as he is capable of. Regardless of where you come down in the discussion, no one here was saying he is great, even his supporters, which I think got lost in there somehow.

The idea regarding Hickey should always be that the Islanders should get enough talented defensemen on their roster that Hickey loses his job to one of them. A deeper, more talented defense corps should always be any team’s goal.

 

[Uncle Duke]

The idea regarding Hickey should always be that the Islanders should get enough talented defensemen on their roster that Hickey loses his job to one of them. A deeper, more talented defense corps should always be any team’s goal.

Well, I certainly agree on the second point, but I don't necessarily agree that, as we are finding with so many of our players, he cannot be coached to another level and use the abilities he does have within a better defensive structure. The ultimate point I agree with though, the best players we can get on the ice at all times, regardless of old allegiances. That's what the previous admins did and it has cost us dearly.

 

[periferal]

Bottom pairing defensemen don't win you the Stanley Cup and are certainly not as important as top end players or goaltenders are at doing so. If winning the Cup was as easy as replacing a bottom pairing defensemen, every team would be contenders tomorrow. Every cup winner (salary cap era) has average to good bottom pairing defensemen, because if they were better they'd be playing top-4 minutes elsewhere.

I'm sure Washington fans right now are saying "ughhhh if only we got rid of Djoos we'd actually have a shot at winning the cup,".

This isn't about Hickey or any bottom pairing defenseman. This is about the philosophy of RAISING STANDARDS around here. In other words...Stop tolerating the "snow/wang/capuano" level of ineptitude, and instead embrace the "Lou/Trotz" standard for everything in this organization from ownership down to players.

 

[saintunspecified]

I've only seen 1.5 of the last 4 games. (Out of town with family). But the thing LL absolutely really in no way should even entertain or consider for the slimmest moment is sending Devon Toews down the minors.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I have no issues with anyone who wants to debate a player, system, etc. like you guys are. In fact, I think it's great because it can help people view things differently or maybe notice something they missed before. The issue I have is with posters who don't contribute any analysis and just post that they're right because the coach or GM agrees with them, and that's the only argument they're making. Using what they're choosing to do to reinforce a position is fine and definitely acceptable.

I misunderstood your post, I agree with what you said above 100%.

 

[ScaredStreit]

This isn't about Hickey or any bottom pairing defenseman. This is about the philosophy of RAISING STANDARDS around here. In other words...Stop tolerating the "snow/wang/capuano" level of ineptitude, and instead embrace the "Lou/Trotz" standard for everything in this organization from ownership down to players.

The two of us were two of the biggest anti Snow/Capuano/etc. posters around, so you'll get no arguments out of me for that. My point is that blaming the lack of success a team is having on a #5-6 defensemen, or 4th line forward (which I've seen plenty of times) is ridiculous. I do agree it starts with management.

 

[Jester9881]

1) No you're not supposed to, that's a suicide pass. Making a blind pass to an open player who has an opponent right next to them is asking for injury, especially when you're 2-3 feet away from the boards

2) You're making this personal, not sure why and it isn't the first time in the thread. If you want to brag about how much you know about hockey and where/how you learned it, PM me. Let's compare notes. However I fully expect you to post here as to who has the better credentials and trust you not to leak mine (I hate doing this, and iirc have never done so on HF before because it's lame and petty), but if you want to suggest that I don't know hockey or what I'm talking about, I'll shot you down...and it'll be ugly.

If you're going to go around saying he sucks playing on the powerplay (when he doesn't play on it) and get salty when the facts prove you wrong, I don't know what to tell you.

But you know more than Trotz and Lou right? Give me a break.

PS: +/- is a weak statistic I agree with you on that, which is why I haven't used it about Hickey whatsoever.

Ok ok... yeah yeah... enough of you. Bye now

Edit: and again you can't even read... I didn't say he couldn't produce on the PP..... he can't produce PERIOD.

 

[wingnutks]

That was some riveting video analysis a couple pages back

 

[crasherino]

Well, I certainly agree on the second point, but I don't necessarily agree that, as we are finding with so many of our players, he cannot be coached to another level and use the abilities he does have within a better defensive structure. The ultimate point I agree with though, the best players we can get on the ice at all times, regardless of old allegiances. That's what the previous admins did and it has cost us dearly.

So....if Hickey is healthy come next week, should he be playing?

I'm not a Hickey hater (not a huge supporter either) but I find myself hoping that he stays out much longer and doesn't give anyone the chance to mess with the defense right now. Dennis Potvin is fond of saying that defenseman need a full 300 games in the NHL before they are fully seasoned. So far (and I realize its a small sample size), Toews looks like he's closer to the 300 endof the spectrum than the 0 end.

My guess is that the team will rotate Pelech and Toews as they don't want to risk healthy scratching a veteran like Hickey. And that would be a shame. Pelech's play has been improving of late and he at least has some upside to his game if/when the game slows down for him, which may be happening. He may be the kind of player that needs the full 300 games to get acclimated.

 

[Islanders4Cups]

Lou’s list is getting longer. He is going to have to decide on Lee and figure out how to approach the trade deadline with a playoff spot dangling within reach and the youngsters pushing highly paid veterans.

 

[Uncle Duke]

So....if Hickey is healthy come next week, should he be playing?

I'm not a Hickey hater (not a huge supporter either) but I find myself hoping that he stays out much longer and doesn't give anyone the chance to mess with the defense right now. Dennis Potvin is fond of saying that defenseman need a full 300 games in the NHL before they are fully seasoned. So far (and I realize its a small sample size), Toews looks like he's closer to the 300 endof the spectrum than the 0 end.

My guess is that the team will rotate Pelech and Toews as they don't want to risk healthy scratching a veteran like Hickey. And that would be a shame. Pelech's play has been improving of late and he at least has some upside to his game if/when the game slows down for him, which may be happening. He may be the kind of player that needs the full 300 games to get acclimated.

Over Sbisa yes, over Pelech a toss-up. Depends on opponent to some degree. Both decent puck movers with slight edge to Hickey but Pelech has size advantage and slightly heavier game so whatever matchup makes most sense based on opponent. In terms of future value, yes Pelech, obviously based on age alone. But let's remember, Hickey has not had the benefit the kind of excellent coaching and excellent scheme - in fact, the opposite - during his time as an Islander and so he too deserves an opportunity to show what he can do in our new reality. Not 300 games, but also some time to adjust. The bottom line for me, based on a 61 yr lifetime in and around the game, is that while Hickey is by no means an exceptional player, he is not the train wreck that he is made out to be. I mean, to read some of the Hickey hater posts, he is as bad a defenseman as there is in the NHL and that is not what I am seeing. As to Toews, no question that he should stay, even at the expense of Hickey, though given his contract situation it will be interesting to see how they handle it.

 

[PWJunior]

Does anyone know what our record is with and without Hickey from the last couple of years? Just curious.

 

[Seph]

Ok ok... yeah yeah... enough of you. Bye now

Edit: and again you can't even read... I didn't say he couldn't produce on the PP..... he can't produce PERIOD.

That's simply not true, though. At 5 on 5 over the last 3 and a half seasons, Hickey is 45th among all defensemen in total points and 22nd in pts/60 (with at least 1000 min played). How is that not sufficient production for a bottom pairing defenseman?

Does anyone know what our record is with and without Hickey from the last couple of years? Just curious.

Taking a look at the same time period above, looks like we were 119-91-29 (55.9 pts%) with him in the lineup and 23-15-12 (58.0 pts%), so it's a pretty negligible difference given the small sample size for missed games. He also is 2nd only to Pulock over that time period for defensemen on the Islanders at 5 on 5 (with at least 1000 minutes) in terms of GF% relative and is 1st in GA/60 relative, so it doesn't appear that the team is better when he isn't playing.

 

[pursuit81]

You're not saying anything other than "smarter hockey minds are doing it, so I'm right." Again, add to the conversation beyond that or see yourself out, because otherwise you're spamming or trolling. It's very simple.

The double standard you employ should be embarrassing to you. I'm not trolling or spamming or anything like it. My point of view is simple, I could make a damning video of Erik Karlsson, Drew Doughty, Victor Hedman, name your defenseman. The videos posted prove only one thing, that TH plays in the NHL, is a defenseman, and makes mistakes. Just like every other defenseman in the league. Hell, in the last week alone, after a Norris worthy start, I could make a video destroying Ryan McDonagh. He's had a horrible week. He is still an A+ defenseman. Now I have never argued that TH is an A+ defenseman, or even a B defenseman, yet I am essentially being told that because I both respect the views of the management about him and make judgements about players based on my experience in the game that I have somehow trolled other Isles fans because I disagree with them, furthermore and amazingly to me, and some of my (far less rude) posts have been taken down. It's nothing short of censorship because you don't like my point of view.

The argument that TH is a garbage defenseman is old news based on an old mindset. I am entitled to that opinion, I am entitled to state it and I should have to worry about getting kicked off the site because I state it.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

The double standard you employ should be embarrassing to you. I'm not trolling or spamming or anything like it. My point of view is simple, I could make a damning video of Erik Karlsson, Drew Doughty, Victor Hedman, name your defenseman. The videos prove only one thing, that TH plays in the NHL, is a defenseman, and makes mistakes. Just like every other defenseman in the league. Hell, in the last week alone, after an Norris worthy start, I could make a video destroying Ryan McDonagh. He's had a horrible week. He is still an A+ defenseman. Now I have never argued that TH is an A+ defenseman, or even a B defenseman, yet I am essentially being told that because I both respect the views of the management of the team about him and I have a long background in the game that gives me the wherewithal to make judgements about players, and the argument that TH is a garbage defenseman is old news based on an old mindset. I am entitled to that opinion, I am entitled to state it and I should have to worry about getting kicked off the site because I state it.

I was ridiculed for saying that almost all of our roster was acquired by Garth Snow. People here could try to make you feel like an idiot, but they can’t prove it. They say things are factual just by calling them as such and then have a holier-than-though attitude if you question them. So keep going pursuit81.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

I was ridiculed for saying that almost all of our roster was acquired by Garth Snow. People here could try to make you feel like an idiot, but they can’t prove it. They say things are factual just by calling them as such and then have a holier-than-though attitude if you question them. So keep going pursuit81.

You were ridiculed for saying Snow was good at his job, which entailed a lot more than player acquisition. The three goalie rotation alone should have gotten him canned, but you do not want to hear anything negative about the guy who Wang met in he hallway when he needed a new GM.
Pursuit sees a serviceable defenseman watching a guy most of us were hoping to put in the rear view mirror at the end of his last contract. You are both entitled to your opinions, just do not expect a lot of us to agree with you.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Well, I certainly agree on the second point, but I don't necessarily agree that, as we are finding with so many of our players, he cannot be coached to another level and use the abilities he does have within a better defensive structure. The ultimate point I agree with though, the best players we can get on the ice at all times, regardless of old allegiances. That's what the previous admins did and it has cost us dearly.

No amount of coaching is going to make the Hick bigger, faster, or less liable to pass to the other team in our slot(well maybe). Pelech has room to grow as a player, Potvin's 300 game rule applies. If Trotz/LL decide to dump him, I am not going to argue. Hickey does not see the ice on a contending team, I am sure people smarter than me know this, too.

 

[buud]

No amount of coaching is going to make the Hick bigger, faster, or less liable to pass to the other team in our slot(well maybe). Pelech has room to grow as a player, Potvin's 300 game rule applies. If Trotz/LL decide to dump him, I am not going to argue. Hickey does not see the ice on a contending team, I am sure people smarter than me know this, too.

this the sum, for me. Hickey has taken a pounding on here, and maybe it is not justified. i have been hard on him, but i will admit that his game (as well as everyone else's) has improved under Trotz.

IMO and ideally, our bottom D are big, tough, defensive specialists. top 4 is a combo of both grit and skill, which gives us 2 D for PP, and 4 D for PK.

Hickey is neither skilled or gritty. he should be in coaching, maybe.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Why are people still ranting about capuano and snow?

 

[Lek]

Hickey would suffice in a 6 role if need be and be your solid 7th on a good club, who for short periods of time could fill in for 3,4,5,6 if need be or for brief rest. Overall he has done well for us over the years, but he is sliding down the defensive roster and while unfortunate for him, the direction we need for our club to improve as it means we are getting better players in front of him. He is a smart player, just lacking some of the top tier natural talent. I do think he will make one hell of a coach one day....and when his time comes to move on, will thank him for all the time and hard work he put in with us.

 

[MJF]

Why are people still ranting about capuano and snow?

Because of the 13 wasted years. Because a blind man could see when a coach needed to be fired and Snow wouldn’t do it. Because John Tavares decided he didn’t want to be an islander and it probably had a lot to do with Snow being bad at his job. Because....

 

[aronjudge11]

Lou has been better than most anyone else who could have been hired. Less accomplished GM's don't hire Barry Trotz who could easily also be the gm or move up to GM in a few years. They don't fire as many of wangs Entourage crew, and they don't bring Martin back, because they need to show the owner they have their own ideas. They probably would of made a couple more trades just to change lineup to non snow people so the gm gets more credit if they win. To me, that's the only reasonable explanation Maloney traded turgeon.

 

[Uncle Duke]

No amount of coaching is going to make the Hick bigger, faster, or less liable to pass to the other team in our slot(well maybe). Pelech has room to grow as a player, Potvin's 300 game rule applies. If Trotz/LL decide to dump him, I am not going to argue. Hickey does not see the ice on a contending team, I am sure people smarter than me know this, too.

Uh, as pleasantly surprising as it is, we are a contending team. And Hickey's on it. Oh, wait, if I write that then that must mean I think he is world's greatest defenseman. Better be careful what I write..............

 

[Newsworthy]

LA Kings put a former top first rd pick on waivers for a reason. He is a number five or six Dman. For this team all he does is take a roster spot from a younger and cheaper player. Signing him for four years made little sense.

 

[MattMartin]

LA Kings put a former top first rd pick on waivers for a reason. He is a number five or six Dman. For this team all he does is take a roster stop from a younger and cheaper player. Signing him for four years made little sense.

i mean how in the hell do you sit Toews at this point??????? Maybe Pelech/Hickey rotate or just leave hickey in the pressbox until you can unload him for anything. I would assume Aho would be a better option in case of injury while keeping "I took a pill in Sbisa" in the pressbox.