New York Islanders: Lou Lamoriello Discussion

[SI]

Lou has been better than most anyone else who could have been hired. Less accomplished GM's don't hire Barry Trotz who could easily also be the gm or move up to GM in a few years. They don't fire as many of wangs Entourage crew, and they don't bring Martin back, because they need to show the owner they have their own ideas. They probably would of made a couple more trades just to change lineup to non snow people so the gm gets more credit if they win. To me, that's the only reasonable explanation Maloney traded turgeon.

Wtf?

 

[Jester9881]

That's simply not true, though. At 5 on 5 over the last 3 and a half seasons, Hickey is 45th among all defensemen in total points and 22nd in pts/60 (with at least 1000 min played). How is that not sufficient production for a bottom pairing defenseman?


Taking a look at the same time period above, looks like we were 119-91-29 (55.9 pts%) with him in the lineup and 23-15-12 (58.0 pts%), so it's a pretty negligible difference given the small sample size for missed games. He also is 2nd only to Pulock over that time period for defensemen on the Islanders at 5 on 5 (with at least 1000 minutes) in terms of GF% relative and is 1st in GA/60 relative, so it doesn't appear that the team is better when he isn't playing.

Thomas Hickey is averaging just over 19 mins a game. What other bottom pairing D get that many minutes? What would his production look like if he were actually used as a 3rd pairing D? My argument is that his offense is not good enough to make up for his poor defense. He's being outscored by Adam Pelech (almost doubled) despite Adam getting two full less minutes a night, and I don't believe anyone would say Adam Pelech is even average offensively.

These same statistics that tell you the team isn't better when he isn't playing, told us that Matt Donovan was a good defenseman. I'm not trying to trash analytics as a whole, but... grain of salt here.

 

[Uncle Duke]

LA Kings put a former top first rd pick on waivers for a reason. He is a number five or six Dman. For this team all he does is take a roster stop from a younger and cheaper player. Signing him for four years made little sense.

The list of good players who have been waived when they were young is very long (Osgood, Recchi, Grabner, Kunitz, Bryzgalov, Whitney and on and on- no superstars, but some damn good players) so that particular piece of info doesn't mean a whole lot. As to your larger point, there are two issues on the table; one you will get pretty much universal agreement on and that is the term of the contract, which is too long and then there is the issue of the quality of his play, and on that there is anything but universal agreement, save for this, no one thinks he is a first or second pair player in a perfect world.

 

[Jester9881]

I don't get the fascination this place has with poor hockey players. At least even his defenders admit he's a 6-7 D.... so why are we wasting this much energy? Saying we should improve on him should not be sacrilege. This is like Alan Quine all over again...before that it was Nate Thompson.

 

[Newsworthy]

The list of good players who have been waived when they were young is very long (Osgood, Recchi, Grabner, Kunitz, Bryzgalov, Whitney and on and on- no superstars, but some damn good players) so that particular piece of info doesn't mean a whole lot. As to your larger point, there are two issues on the table; one you will get pretty much universal agreement on and that is the term of the contract, which is too long and then there is the issue of the quality of his play, and on that there is anything but universal agreement, save for this, no one thinks he is a first or second pair player in a perfect world.

Martin St Louis was once waived by Calgary.
Unfortunately for the Islander fans Hickey isn't on the "good player list".
Notice none of the players you listed play D.
I can't recall the last significant defenseman being waived and having a good career elsewhere. But yes I agree that one's man garbage is another man's treasure.

 

[Uncle Duke]

I don't get the fascination this place has with poor hockey players. At least even his defenders admit he's a 6-7 D.... so why are we wasting this much energy? Saying we should improve on him should not be sacrilege. This is like Alan Quine all over again...before that it was Nate Thompson.

Because the discussion has not been about whether we can do better, if we can, we should, no one disagrees, that goes for every position, every player, but the discussion has been about how terrible TH is or isn't and, of course, the term of his deal. No one that I have read, as you point out, thinks he's great but some us think he is not nearly as garbage as he is made out to be by some. But, ultimately, your point is a fair one, he's a bottom pair guy and maybe not worth the ink and angst being devoted to him. Though in the end, that's kind of what these boards are all about, passionate people having sometimes silly discussions about a game. There are no casual fans here...........

 

[Le Grec]

I don't get the fascination this place has with poor hockey players. At least even his defenders admit he's a 6-7 D.... so why are we wasting this much energy? Saying we should improve on him should not be sacrilege. This is like Alan Quine all over again...before that it was Nate Thompson.

This!
It's Hickey, not Potvin.
If he never played for the Isles again, no one would miss him.
There's at least 3 D in Bridgeport that I would rather see play than the usual Hickey crap...

 

[LeapOnOver]

Hickey would be a stud if he was two inches taller and twenty pounds heavier...smart player, just doesn't have the body to play the game he tries to play.

 

[Rehabguy]

Hickey would be a stud if he was two inches taller and twenty pounds heavier...smart player, just doesn't have the body to play the game he tries to play.

That’s how I feel about him as well. He’s a very smart defender and plays bigger than his stature should suggest, but his size makes him a liability. There are games I watch and it appears some of the better teams out there exploit this like the Caps for example. Size matters. You don’t want to give the opposing team any psychological advantage. He reminds me of King Edward the Lionhearted’s son from Braveheart when the king said, “I cant send my son to negotiate, one look at him and they’ll want to invade the entire country”. That’s how I feel about Hickey, one look at him and the entire defense looks like it could get run over.

 

[Disgraced Cosmonaut]

I'm a believer that one of Hickey, Pelech, or Sbisa have to go. It's highly unlikely that Hickey is dealt, given that he was just signed and is viewed by management as a heady player and valuable locker room contributor. I think Pelech has more value - if for no other reason than he's signed for less and is younger. I would package him to a team in need of depth D.

I happen to think they're both serviceable 6/7 guys on most teams. Solid 7's on cup-contending teams.

Sbisa could be our 7 for the remainder of the season, after Pelech or Hickey is dealt to Calgary.

 

[PK Cronin]

The double standard you employ should be embarrassing to you. I'm not trolling or spamming or anything like it. My point of view is simple, I could make a damning video of Erik Karlsson, Drew Doughty, Victor Hedman, name your defenseman. The videos posted prove only one thing, that TH plays in the NHL, is a defenseman, and makes mistakes. Just like every other defenseman in the league. Hell, in the last week alone, after a Norris worthy start, I could make a video destroying Ryan McDonagh. He's had a horrible week. He is still an A+ defenseman. Now I have never argued that TH is an A+ defenseman, or even a B defenseman, yet I am essentially being told that because I both respect the views of the management about him and make judgements about players based on my experience in the game that I have somehow trolled other Isles fans because I disagree with them, furthermore and amazingly to me, and some of my (far less rude) posts have been taken down. It's nothing short of censorship because you don't like my point of view.

The argument that TH is a garbage defenseman is old news based on an old mindset. I am entitled to that opinion, I am entitled to state it and I should have to worry about getting kicked off the site because I state it.

There is no double standard. You're not posting anything other than that you're right and the management agrees with you, so that's enough evidence.

I couldn't care less whether you think he's good or bad. I care that you're taking up space without saying anything of substance. We know you don't think Hickey is bad, if youyou not adding to the conversation and having a dialogue, don't bother posting about how everyone else is wrong. If you have an issue with the moderation, report the post and reach out to someone above me, just like always.

If you have any other questions or concerns, take it to the PMs.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I don't get the fascination this place has with poor hockey players. At least even his defenders admit he's a 6-7 D.... so why are we wasting this much energy? Saying we should improve on him should not be sacrilege. This is like Alan Quine all over again...before that it was Nate Thompson.

#6 defensemen are like backup goaltenders. Are they going to make your season? No. Are they going to break it? No. Will they contribute to the team, despite their role being limited? Yes. Are they still an important part of the team? Yes.

You don't notice good #6 defensemen until they suck or they're put in a role that they're not suited for (which has been Hickey for a lot of his time on the Islanders).

Just like a 4th liner, most people here didn't blink an eye when we lost Martin, but I was concerned for sure. Again he wont stand out to you, unless you plan on replacing what he brings with a guy like Chimera (which was a disgusting move).

 

[Seph]

Thomas Hickey is averaging just over 19 mins a game. What other bottom pairing D get that many minutes? What would his production look like if he were actually used as a 3rd pairing D? My argument is that his offense is not good enough to make up for his poor defense. He's being outscored by Adam Pelech (almost doubled) despite Adam getting two full less minutes a night, and I don't believe anyone would say Adam Pelech is even average offensively.

These same statistics that tell you the team isn't better when he isn't playing, told us that Matt Donovan was a good defenseman. I'm not trying to trash analytics as a whole, but... grain of salt here.

I mean, I posted his pts per 60 minutes too, and he ranks higher, so your logid doesn't follow that he's getting points based on getting too many minutes. The fact is pretty simple that over the past 3.5 seasons, his production has been quite good. Looking exclusively at production for only a 32 game span where he's adjusting to a new system seems pretty myopic within the bigger picture to me, and seems like you're only using that because it supports your opinion.

And these statistics never said that about Matt Donovan,you're just making things up now, and even if what you said had any truth to it, using a sample size of Donovan's very short NHL career would have no bearing on using them over 3+ years.

Look, I'm not drawing any conclusions on Hickey based on these facts, but attacking the facts because they don't support your conclusion and then just blatantly making shit up doesn't make your position look stronger.

 

[Lame Lambert]

This season made me realize that Snow and friends were not obsessed with gritty veterans, they were just obsessed with garbage hockey players. Gritty vets like Komarov and Flip actually play hockey well, unlike Chimera, Bernier, Strait, etc.

I also love how Snow brought in Ladd to fill a “leadership role”, but Komarov has shown just how useless he is at that too.

 

[Jester9881]

I mean, I posted his pts per 60 minutes too, and he ranks higher, so your logid doesn't follow that he's getting points based on getting too many minutes. The fact is pretty simple that over the past 3.5 seasons, his production has been quite good. Looking exclusively at production for only a 32 game span where he's adjusting to a new system seems pretty myopic within the bigger picture to me, and seems like you're only using that because it supports your opinion.

The point is his offense is not good enough to overcome his bad defense. Everyone is adjusting to a new system, including Adam Pelech so that argument is weak.

And these statistics never said that about Matt Donovan,you're just making things up now, and even if what you said had any truth to it, using a sample size of Donovan's very short NHL career would have no bearing on using them over 3+ years.

EL OH EL

I didn't know you were trying to gaslight me here, I wouldn't have even responded. You cannot be serious with this.... like it never even happened. Is that the new tactic? Make a terrible claim then whistle past the graveyard years later when you've been proven woefully incorrect? Anyone that was around back then has to remember the multiple threads on the subject.

Look, I'm not drawing any conclusions on Hickey based on these facts, but attacking the facts because they don't support your conclusion and then just blatantly making **** up doesn't make your position look stronger.

Shit like this is how this argument started in the first place. My opinion is different than yours, therefore I'm the one that's ignorant and I'm the one that has no knowledge. I posted multiple video examples and all I did was go through the games from this season.

From here on out, I'm blocking anyone that defends this turd stick. Totally not worth my energy.

 

[periferal]

When a debate on Thomas Hickey goes on this long you know that Islander fans will always need, and find, something to complain about.

 

[Kauskey]

This season made me realize that Snow and friends were not obsessed with gritty veterans, they were just obsessed with garbage hockey players. Gritty vets like Komarov and Flip actually play hockey well, unlike Chimera, Bernier, Strait, etc.

I also love how Snow brought in Ladd to fill a “leadership role”, but Komarov has shown just how useless he is at that too.

To be fair it's not like everyone thinks Komarov is on a great contact.

 

[Lame Lambert]

To be fair it's not like everyone thinks Komarov is on a great contact.

I never talked about his contract

 

[Nassau Revisited]

When a debate on Thomas Hickey goes on this long you know that Islander fans will always need, and find, something to complain about.

Exactly. Every team needs at least 7 dmen to get through 82 games and the playoffs. Hickey is not going to be repacked with prime Duncan Keith if we get rid of him. Hickey would be replaced with a Sbisa or Pelech type of player.

Hickey is not perfect but he is also good enough to be a bottom pair guy on a playoff team

 

[PROMputt]

Barry Trotz, who has more knowledge and a better understanding of the game then anyone here, finds it fit to give Hickey about 19 mins a night. I trust BT's judgement over anyone here. I get it, every team on HF Boards needs a whipping boy and Hickey because he is small is an easy target. He is a better than average bottom pairing Dman and is being payed as such. I love how some here can rip Snow(not defending Snow as I am glad he is gone) for not signing Spurgeon but hate on Hickey. Yes Spurgeon is a muuuucch better offensive Dman than Hickey., Snow whiffed on that(Spurgeon is also making over 5mil so he better produce). Like some have written, if the Islanders are going to be a playoff team, veteran Dmen like Hickey are going to be needed.

 

[MJF]

I never talked about his contract

Some people still can’t separate Komarov’s play from his contract. It’s a pivot point some guys have to use.

 

[Uncle Duke]

Hickey would be a stud if he was two inches taller and twenty pounds heavier...smart player, just doesn't have the body to play the game he tries to play.

A sometimes curse of a certain segment of the Irish population; the inability to gain weight and muscle mass. I'm sure they tried to fatten him up and muscle him up, but no go. I had the same problem when I was his age and younger. Eat and lift, eat and lift, eat and lift. Marginal gains. This is where your PEDs come in. Looks like neither he (nor I) was willing to go that route. I guess he's just not a team player..........

 

[Seph]

The point is his offense is not good enough to overcome his bad defense. Everyone is adjusting to a new system, including Adam Pelech so that argument is weak.



EL OH EL

I didn't know you were trying to gaslight me here, I wouldn't have even responded. You cannot be serious with this.... like it never even happened. Is that the new tactic? Make a terrible claim then whistle past the graveyard years later when you've been proven woefully incorrect? Anyone that was around back then has to remember the multiple threads on the subject.



**** like this is how this argument started in the first place. My opinion is different than yours, therefore I'm the one that's ignorant and I'm the one that has no knowledge. I posted multiple video examples and all I did was go through the games from this season.

From here on out, I'm blocking anyone that defends this turd stick. Totally not worth my energy.

I haven't posted any opinions here. Sorry the facts don't support your opinion but that doesn't suddenly make them gaslighting. Getting angry about facts still doesn't make your position look better and disregarding them entirely because they don't support your position does make you seem more similar to a flat earther, though.

 

[Jester9881]

I haven't posted any opinions here. Just facts. Sorry they don't support your opinion but that doesn't suddenly make them gaslighting. Getting angry about facts still doesn't make your position look better and disregarding them entirely because they don't support your position does make you seem more similar to a flat earther, though.

I haven't posted any opinions here, just facts. *With video evidence*

Sorry it doesn't support your opinion. Pretending certain people around here didn't defend Matt Donovan citing his fancy stats, doesn't make your position look better, in fact it makes your position look even weaker. On that note, I leave you the floor... sticking by my word.

 

[LeapOnOver]

A sometimes curse of a certain segment of the Irish population; the inability to gain weight and muscle mass. I'm sure they tried to fatten him up and muscle him up, but no go. I had the same problem when I was his age and younger. Eat and lift, eat and lift, eat and lift. Marginal gains. This is where your PEDs come in. Looks like neither he (nor I) was willing to go that route. I guess he's just not a team player..........

Yeah, honestly I think he should have made the decision to become a forward earlier in his career. I applaud him for having confidence, and I still really like a lot of the skill he brings. He just was limited physically to ever excel at his position. He's a gamer though, shows a lot of heart and passion. I still think he makes a great 6/7 and honestly I think he's still better than Pelech at this point.