Player Discussion Logan Brown

[Sensung]

This is getting goofy.

When people said he only played one partial season in the AHL, it was clear they were commenting on him having missed significant time to injuries and a short callup. Nobody was suggesting he was sitting at home refusing to show up, they were just pointing out he hasn't had a full healthy season of development in that league.

There really is no need to die on this pedamtic hill... The point was always he did not play the full 72 game schedule.

He missed 16 games.

He’s had a season in the AHL.

Maybe he’ll need part of a second season there, but I think you have to give him the chance to start the season with the big club.

 

[bert]

Wolanin only played 40 games in the AHL, but nobody was saying we should leave him down (this year or last year tbh). Jaros only played 45 games in the AHL. White has 50 career games in Belleville/Bingo. His production there wasn't as good as Browns, but there was no shortage of those who felt he needed to be with the big club. Zibanejad only ever played 29 AHL games, and was able to fit in pretty quickly putting up ~40 pts paces from the 3rd line.

Personally, I'd like to see Brown at camp before predicting whats best for his development. The nice thing about the offseason is if gives players time to work on the weaknesses that were exposed in a prospects first year of pro hockey. Maybe he comes to camp with an extra bit of explisiveness in his first step, maybe late season collapse left him hungry and he hit the gym, who knows.

I'd love to see him come in the way Stone and Hoffman did; playing 3rd/4th line mins with another high skilled guy (Batherson) as a scoring line. Heck, throw them out there with Formenton, could be a heck of a line. Maybe we see it mid season...

Tkachuk-White-Brown ---> top line... leaves something to be desired.
Duclaire-Tierney-Balcers ---> not a terrible 2nd line, would make a good 3rd.
Anisimov-Pageau-Ennis ---> traditional shutdown line. Will likely be hated by fans
Formenton-Brown-Batherson ---> everbody will say this should be our first line, but they'll only get 11 mins a night.

Eating popcorn in the pressbox line Boedker, Ryan

How is it good for Brown and Bathersons development to play 11 minutes a night on a bad team?

Brown is 4 years younger than Wolanin and Wolanin dominated and showed he can really play and contribute at the NHL level. Thats the difference between those two players.

Jaros is also older and is further along in his physical development.

With the way Zibanejad developed in Ottawa and his subsequent trade dont you think they should have handled that one differently?

White is far more polished away from the puck and is further along in his physical development than Brown. I still wouldnt have minded more time in the AHL for him.

I understand what you are saying but Browns size, injury history and lack of consistency are why I think they should take their time with him especially considering the teams current cirucumstances.

Using the Stone, Dzingel and Hoffman development curve seems stronger than the Lazar, Zibanejad, Ceci one. Those players all developed closer to their maximum potential and I dont think its a coincidence. There is no reason to rush any players unless they bang down the door considering how bad Ottawa is going to be this year.

 

[Engineer]

Brown (and Paul) were a joy to watch in Belleville.

I'm hoping he can extend that excellent play to the NHL level.

 

[Micklebot]

How is it good for Brown and Bathersons development to play 11 minutes a night on a bad team?

Brown is 4 years younger than Wolanin and Wolanin dominated and showed he can really play and contribute at the NHL level. Thats the difference between those two players.

Jaros is also older and is further along in his physical development.

With the way Zibanejad developed in Ottawa and his subsequent trade dont you think they should have handled that one differently?

White is far more polished away from the puck and is further along in his physical development than Brown. I still wouldnt have minded more time in the AHL for him.

I understand what you are saying but Browns size, injury history and lack of consistency are why I think they should take their time with him especially considering the teams current cirucumstances.

Using the Stone, Dzingel and Hoffman development curve seems stronger than the Lazar, Zibanejad, Ceci one. Those players all developed closer to their maximum potential and I dont think its a coincidence. There is no reason to rush any players unless they bang down the door considering how bad Ottawa is going to be this year.

The 11 mins bit was a joke. Obviously you didn't get it...

Brown was part of what was being called one of the best lines in the AHL for a good chunk of the season and getting praise from Mann for his 200 ft game.

He is already 220 pds at 21, yes he may physically mature a bit more but this isn't a kid who is too small for the pro game and having his size taken advantage of.

Wrt Zibanejad, aside from a dumb trade he was handled fine. 74 pts and 30 goals by 25 yrs old? Where do I sign up?

Honestly, saying using the development curve of 6th, 7th, and 5th round picks ignores the very obvious; those guys were picked that late because they needed more development. They arent proof that more time in the AHL yeilds better results, they are evidence that more work is typically required to bring late round picks up to NHL caliber.

I'm not saying he has to play in the NHL, I am saying he doesn't have to play in the AHL. Let his performance in training camp dictate where we slot him in. There is no magic number of AHL games that is best.

 

[Micklebot]

He missed 16 games.

He’s had a season in the AHL.

Maybe he’ll need part of a second season there, but I think you have to give him the chance to start the season with the big club.

thats just about a quarter of the season. That doesn't sound significant to you?

 

[Sensung]

tbest.thats just about a quarter of the season. That doesn't sound significant to you?

Not really, no.

Was he still on the roster?

Was he still at team meetings and video sessions?

Not all learning takes place on the ice.

 

[Micklebot]

Not really, no.

Was he still on the roster?

Was he still at team meetings and video sessions?

Not all learning takes place on the ice.

Do you think these things are as important to development as game time?

Honestly, if you think missing a quarter of a season isn't relevant I think we will have to agree to disagree on that point. In the end though, that is the point people were making. Whether you feel it should be a significant consideration or not is another matter, but it did happen and that is what is being referenced when people bring up that he has only played a partial season at the pro level.

 

[Sensung]

Do you think these things are as important to development as game time?

Honestly, if you think missing a quarter of a season isn't relevant I think we will have to agree to disagree on that point. In the end though, that is the point people were making. Whether you feel it should be a significant consideration or not is another matter, but it did happen and that is what is being referenced when people bring up that he has only played a partial season at the pro level.

Sometimes those are actually more important.

Game time can reinforce bad habits. Video work can help from both a tactical and technical point of view.

I don’t consider injuries to remove a player from the team or learning environment, perhaps that is because of my coaching background. I’m not saying my view is the only reasonable one, just how I’ve always approached athlete development for players who get injuries.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It’s pretty simple in my mind.

If he earns a spot out of camp you happily give it to him and monitor his play all season. If he needs to go down then you send him down, otherwise you bring him along at a developmental pace. It looks like we have the exact coaching staff for this purpose.

If he doesn’t earn a spot out of camp, down he goes with a list of things to work on with Mann.

The one thing you don’t do is send him down if he’s earned an NHL spot out of camp. Players need to feel that they’re being treated fairly, based on their performance and effort. It all plays a part in player happiness and loyalty. No one is going to feel good about being sent down just because the team wants to win a Calder cup. These kids want to progress their careers to the NHL, and a team holding them back is a team that they will leave as soon as they can.

It’s pretty much up to Brown now if he makes the NHL in my opinion, he needs to step up. If/when he does, he gets his reward.

My 2 cents obviously.

 

[Sensung]

It’s pretty simple in my mind.

If he earns a spot out of camp you happily give it to him and monitor his play all season. If he needs to go down then you send him down, otherwise you bring him along at a developmental pace. It looks like we have the exact coaching staff for this purpose.

If he doesn’t earn a spot out of camp, down he goes with a list of things to work on with Mann.

The one thing you don’t do is send him down if he’s earned an NHL spot out of camp. Players need to feel that they’re being treated fairly, based on their performance and effort. It all plays a part in player happiness and loyalty. No one is going to feel good about being sent down just because the team wants to win a Calder cup. These kids want to progress their careers to the NHL, and a team holding them back is a team that they will leave as soon as they can.

It’s pretty much up to Brown now if he makes the NHL in my opinion, he needs to step up. If/when he does, he gets his reward.

My 2 cents obviously.

Good way to look at it.

I just don’t see a lot on the Sens roster at C for him to beat out.

 

[Micklebot]

Sometimes those are actually more important.

Game time can reinforce bad habits. Video work can help from both a tactical and technical point of view.

I don’t consider injuries to remove a player from the team or learning environment, perhaps that is because of my coaching background. I’m not saying my view is the only reasonable one, just how I’ve always approached athlete development for players who get injuries.

But its not one or the other, its one or both.

No team is going to pull Brown out of the linup for a quarter of the season because it's best for his development. Ottawa and any other team for that matter doesn't want kids sitting in the pressbox when they could be playing, that's why they get sent down to a lower level. Nobody is saying everything stops as though the kid is sitting at home eating nachos.

You will find exactly zero NHL or AHL coaches that will say the best thing for a 20 year old blue chip prospects development is to sit in the pressbox and watch video for a quarter of the season. A game or two to change perspective and light a fire under the guy, sure but not a quarter of the season.

 

[Sensung]

But its not one or the other, its one or both.

No team is going to pull Brown out of the linup for a quarter of the season because it's best for his development. Ottawa and any other team for that matter doesn't want kids sitting in the pressbox when they could be playing, that's why they get sent down to a lower level. Nobody is saying everything stops as though the kid is sitting at home eating nachos.

You will find exactly zero NHL or AHL coaches that will say the best thing for a 20 year old blue chip prospects development is to sit in the pressbox and watch video for a quarter of the season. A game or two to change perspective and light a fire under the guy, sure but not a quarter of the season.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say. (Likely I could have said it more clearly)

I’m not claiming his development is better served by missing games due to injury, just that missing some games due to injury doesn’t mean no development is taking place and he is no longer part of the team.

He had a full season in the AHL. He was only able to play 56 games, but was still being developed even while injured.

 

[Micklebot]

I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say. (Likely I could have said it more clearly)

I’m not claiming his development is better served by missing games due to injury, just that missing some games due to injury doesn’t mean no development is taking place and he is no longer part of the team.

He had a full season in the AHL. He was only able to play 56 games, but was still being developed even while injured.

The point about it being a partial season (due to injury) was never that development halted while injured.

It was 2 things: 1. Development is typically slowed but significant time missed to injury. And 2. Missing significant time reduces the size of the sample and thus increases the potential that the level of perfomance seen might not be a true representation of where a player is at.

I'm not going to pencil Brown into the NHL or the AHL just yet. His training camp will determine where he starts and his first dozen games will be used to re-evaluate the decision.

Lots of good players split their years in the AHL to start their career

Pavelski, Couture come to mind.

 

[JD1]

Not all time lost to injury is the same

Iirc Brown list an extended period of time at the beginning of the season. That slowed things down obviously. He got healthy and at least by Mann's account (which is THE authoritative voice on the matter) Brown was dominant and the force behind the line with Paul and Batherson. That line went an extended stretch as a top line in the AHL and it ignited the playoff run. Brown then missed a couple if games with a knee injury and finished out the season in less dominant fashion. My suspicion is he probably should of sat some extra time but they needed him.

I think that extended stretch of dominance pretty much established that Brown, playing at that level, doesn't need more dev time.

If he deserves a spot after camp, he should have one. Personally I think if he is healthy thru camp, he'll dress opening night and barring injury will prove he belongs

 

[Sensung]

Not all time lost to injury is the same

Iirc Brown list an extended period of time at the beginning of the season. That slowed things down obviously. He got healthy and at least by Mann's account (which is THE authoritative voice on the matter) Brown was dominant and the force behind the line with Paul and Batherson. That line went an extended stretch as a top line in the AHL and it ignited the playoff run. Brown then missed a couple if games with a knee injury and finished out the season in less dominant fashion. My suspicion is he probably should of sat some extra time but they needed him.

I think that extended stretch of dominance pretty much established that Brown, playing at that level, doesn't need more dev time.

If he deserves a spot after camp, he should have one. Personally I think if he is healthy thru camp, he'll dress opening night and barring injury will prove he belongs

Good summary.

I agree. If he has a solid camp, the job is his.

 

[bert]

Good summary.

I agree. If he has a solid camp, the job is his.

I dont think anyone disagrees with this sentiment, I want him to earn his spot. I just want to make sure he is knocking down the door when he does it.

 

[Sensung]

I dont think anyone disagrees with this sentiment, I want him to earn his spot. I just want to make sure he is knocking down the door when he does it.

Agreed.

I just don’t think he’ll have a great deal of competition with the C’s we have and the fact that White might not even be around.

 

[Agent Zub]

The problem is that the team is so bad that he could make it more due to a lack of competition than actually being ready to be an NHL player.

 

[Masked]

The problem is that the team is so bad that he could make it more due to a lack of competition than actually being ready to be an NHL player.

The team has plenty of NHL players. But the problem is that best of them are second liners right now and most top out at third liners. There's White, Tierney, Pageau and Anisimov at center, all of whom are NHL players, plus Norris and Chlapik pushing for a center job.

 

[Agent Zub]

The team has plenty of NHL players. But the problem is that best of them are second liners right now and most top out at third liners. There's White, Tierney, Pageau and Anisimov at center, all of whom are NHL players, plus Norris and Chlapik pushing for a center job.

Yep but do you want to throw a rookie to the the wolves because he might very likely be the best center you have?

What would have been best is to have him step into the lineup and be insulated and mentored by legitimate veteran first line players like Mark Stone.

Right now who is he gonna have? A washed up Bobby Ryan who doesn't give a shit any more?

 

[JD1]

Yep but do you want to throw a rookie to the the wolves because he might very likely be the best center you have?

What would have been best is to have him step into the lineup and be insulated and mentored by legitimate veteran first line players like Mark Stone.

Right now who is he gonna have? A washed up Bobby Ryan who doesn't give a **** any more?

I dont think he is thrown to the wolves at all. For starters he is huge. He's not going to get pushed around or beat on because he's a rookie. Secondly he's pretty skilled. There's no question he has the skill to play.

If he comes to camp and had a good summer training I won't be surprised at all to see him stick. As others have said, you can insulate him by playing him 3C minutes and 1st pp and work with his ice time based on how he handles it.

I'll be disappointed and concerned if he doesn't stick. Presuming he is healthy, if he doesn't stick you have to question how he spent his summer

 

[Micklebot]

Not all time lost to injury is the same

Iirc Brown list an extended period of time at the beginning of the season. That slowed things down obviously. He got healthy and at least by Mann's account (which is THE authoritative voice on the matter) Brown was dominant and the force behind the line with Paul and Batherson. That line went an extended stretch as a top line in the AHL and it ignited the playoff run. Brown then missed a couple if games with a knee injury and finished out the season in less dominant fashion. My suspicion is he probably should of sat some extra time but they needed him.

I think that extended stretch of dominance pretty much established that Brown, playing at that level, doesn't need more dev time.

If he deserves a spot after camp, he should have one. Personally I think if he is healthy thru camp, he'll dress opening night and barring injury will prove he belongs

Pretty much how I see it as well. He still has to show he's earned it at camp to start with the club, then follow that up with showing he belongs playing in the NHL, but as of right now, I'm not seeing anything to suggest he absolutely needs more time in the AHL; there are some question marks to be sure, but nothing that can't be figured out in training camp and if needed the first dozen games of the season.

 

[aragorn]

I think L. Brown could be a top line centre in Belleville to start the season but brought up to Ottawa at some point once PD trades some players to make room on the roster. IMO L. Brown will be the #1 centre in Ottawa by next season, if not sooner & once Tierny or Pageau are moved out Norris will also be called up to Ottawa IMO. The question really is whether the Ottawa brass want a cup in Belleville this yr if the Ottawa team is going to be so bad to drum up some support for the organization. If yes, than they could keep more of their better prospects in Belleville or manage their roster more to assure that happens. Belleville could be more of a priority than Ottawa this coming season given they will have a much better shot at making the playoffs than Ottawa which could help Ottawa secure a better draft position. WIN/WIN for both cities in their respected leagues given the different situations in both cities IMO.
Ottawa:
Tkachuk - White - Ryan
Anisimov - L. Brown - Batherson
Duclair - Tierny - C. Brown
Paul - Pageau - Veronneau
(Ennis/Boedker) - are both UFAs & should be dealt by the trade deadline.

Belleville:
Formenton - Chlapik - Davidsson
Balcers - Norris - Szwarz
Abramov- Kelly - Rodewald
Carcone - Beaudin - Sturtz
(Kastelic/Klimchuk)

 

[Sweatred]

If he looks ready and makes the team out of Camp it’s hard to justify sending him down ... and vice versa. My guess is he will be close to leading the team in scoring out of camp. He can play in more games and needs to standout in the watered down pre season rosters.

The Sens have had a tonne of historical success with D+2 models inc Yashin, Hossa,
Havlat, Redden, EK, Phillips, Spezza, etc. There is no evidence to say D+4 won’t be enough if the player appears ready. Sending him down isn’t the end of the world either.
50+ games is more than a NCAA season, a good euro season etc.

 

[bert]

The 11 mins bit was a joke. Obviously you didn't get it...

Brown was part of what was being called one of the best lines in the AHL for a good chunk of the season and getting praise from Mann for his 200 ft game.

He is already 220 pds at 21, yes he may physically mature a bit more but this isn't a kid who is too small for the pro game and having his size taken advantage of.

Wrt Zibanejad, aside from a dumb trade he was handled fine. 74 pts and 30 goals by 25 yrs old? Where do I sign up?

Honestly, saying using the development curve of 6th, 7th, and 5th round picks ignores the very obvious; those guys were picked that late because they needed more development. They arent proof that more time in the AHL yeilds better results, they are evidence that more work is typically required to bring late round picks up to NHL caliber.

I'm not saying he has to play in the NHL, I am saying he doesn't have to play in the AHL. Let his performance in training camp dictate where we slot him in. There is no magic number of AHL games that is best.

More AHL games is always better than less.

Teams shouldn't develop a player based on where they are picked they should be developed based on what they need to improve on and how their game is developing.

If a team develops players differently based on where the player is drafted that is an incredbly flawed system.