Player Discussion Logan Brown

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JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Funny how I see it as the exact opposite as you do. Who on this years sens team is going to insulate him exactly JD1? This team is barely an NHL roster the premise makes sense but if you critically look at this roster the concept is a fallacy. Innocent Bystanders post was accurate in the description of the player and how he is going to develop.

Throughout this thread no one has given me a single good explanation as to why its better for him to be in the NHL to start the season other than 'the best competition breeds the most improvment' which would be accurate if he had actually proven he is ready. Which he has not. What it really sounds like to me is fans that are hopeful to watch him because there wont be alot to be excited about and havent had much of an opportunity thus far into his career. Based on peoples expectations in this thread I dont think many posters are familiar with where Brown is at in his game coming into the season. I will now factually break it down as to the argument that its better for him to stay in the AHL.

-The most games he has ever played in a season is 64. Therefore he has missed significant development time over his career.

- Brown is only 21 years old and is late to physically mature because of his size. Big players always take longer. Innocent bystander is very likely correct in that he wont hit his peak prime until 24/25 which is very different from most forwards especially high draft picks. Due to both these factors the team needs to take their time with him and not rush the player taking an unnecessary risk in his development.

- Brown needs to prove he can not only stay healthy but play at a high level for long stretches. He went ice cold down the stretch last year when they were pushing for a playoff spot. This is evidence of potentially two things.

A. He has not proven he can be consistent yet.
B. He struggled with hard matchups.

- Brown has played a total of 62 pro games in his life and not a single playoff game.

- Brown needs top 6 ice time to continue his develpment. I think everyone ageees with that. The scenario on Belleville is far more attractive for him in this regard. (Better team, winning mentality and environment, easier competition)

- This is a throw away season so there is no need whatsoever to force him into a situation he is not ready for. When he gets a top 6 roll he will face the other teams best players, very difficult for a rookie NHL center to do. But not only that he will be doing it on the worst team in hockey with the least amount of support. Which brings me back to JD1's argument they will insulate him. Insulate with who exactly? Wingers like Ryan, Boedker, Brown, Tkachuk, Duclair or other rookies and 2nd year players? With a d core that has 1 legit top 4 d man?

- Playing in a winning environment vs the worst team in the NHL.

- Asset management. Pageau, Anisimov and Tierney will be in elevated roles, on soon to be expiring contracts. The icetime you want to give to brown would alternatively go to them. Putting the team in a situation to aquire higher end assets to put towards the 'rebuild'. If the team does trade 1 or even 2 of them 50/60 games into the season that is the perfect time to being Brown up.

- Right now the sens have 4 centermen coming to camp not including Brown. White, Tierney, Pageau and Anisimov. Brown would have to be at worst the 2nd best by a wide margin at camp (barring injury) to make the team forcing one of them to the wing. I just dont see it especially from a coach that all he has talked about is centermen back tracking the puck better and supporting down low.

I do think if he comes in and dominates camp he should start with the team. However based on his history and where his game is at i do not expect it. If he does make the team then struggles, there should be no hesitation to send him down. If he makes the team and they barely play him thats the absolute worst case scenario. With this management team I will put nothing past them.

In final conclusion barring injury I think he starts in the AHL and I dont think its a bad thing.

Well Bert, personally I'd say his struggling down the stretch was more a result of a short term knee injury that likely should have resulted in him sitting out longer than he did. That's not uncommon.

Ya he missed some time last year. Take away the late year knee injury and presume he continued to dominate? Then what?

Its relatively easy on home ice to control matchups and keep him away from defensive responsibilities against the game's elite. It's also relatively easy in away games to have one of our other centers on a line with him and have that centre play low against elite competition.

There are arguments to be made here both ways. Bottom line is that Brown's play will dictate what needs to be done.

And thank you Bert for the civilized discussion
 
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bert

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Well Bert, personally I'd say his struggling down the stretch was more a result of a short term knee injury that likely should have resulted in him sitting out longer than he did. That's not uncommon.

Ya he missed some time last year. Take away the late year knee injury and presume he continued to dominate? Then what?

Its relatively easy on home ice to control matchups and keep him away from defensive responsibilities against the game's elite. It's also relatively easy in away games to have one of our other centers on a line with him and have that centre play low against elite competition.

There are arguments to be made here both ways. Bottom line is that Brown's play will dictate what needs to be done.

And thank you Bert for the civilized discussion

I hope you are right about the reasoning behind his struggle that would be great news. Agreed on home ice its easier to control the matchup, they would probably have to give him more responsible wingers for away games.

Agreed his play will dictate where he ends up and again I hope I am wrong, he shows me he is ready for a top 6 NHL roll. I dont think skill or talent is the issue, its more his compete level and defensive awareness that I am worried about at this point.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Are you actually talking about Logan Brown??
099ba067e21e9d766826f0525c7d5a52.jpg
 

TkachukNorris79

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Jan 27, 2018
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Brown is overrated as hell. Does not want to change his game to be in NHL. Chris Neil had better hands then Brown. For Brown to be on this team, he has to be physical and not lazy.
You lost every ounce of credibility the moment you said Neil had better hands than Logan Brown. That's bananas. Clearly you have some sort of bias against him (or for Chris Neil???).

I think it's crazy not to admit that this guy hasn't developed very well in the past few years.

His biggest issue has been injuries. If the kid just says healthy, he's a top 6 NHL C in my eyes.
 

MatchesMalone

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Aug 29, 2010
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- Brown needs top 6 ice time to continue his develpment. I think everyone ageees with that. The scenario on Belleville is far more attractive for him in this regard. (Better team, winning mentality and environment, easier competition)

Actually no, I do not agree with that. I know there is always this idea among fans and media that skilled prospects should be played with skilled players, but I don't dig that. I don't think players should get any special treatment because they're a high pick or whatever. Should have to earn those opportunities like everyone else.

There's a lot of skilled player and a lot of skilled prospects on this team (or any team - this is the NHL), so why take a top six spot from a Connor Brown or Duclair, who are on their last chances to establish themselves in this league, or a Pageau or Tierney who are playing for contracts this year? I get that on the one hand, this is essentially what you're arguing for - that he should have to work his way into the lineup.

But there's a sort of developmental curve, where at a certain point, the amount that a player is developing playing top minutes at a lower level is less than what they'd get playing bottom six minutes at the higher level.

Now I'm not saying that's definitely the case with Brown, but he was almost a point per game player last year. Again, training camp and pre-season will decide things.

My main point is just, look at old Detroit, or currently San Jose, Boston, Washington, all these good teams that bring guys along slowly. Yes they tend to leave top prospects in the AHL for a while, but also, when a prospect gets to that point on the development curve where they're better suited to develop in the NHL, they have no issues starting top prospects on the third or fourth line and gradually bringing them along.
 

NyQuil

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Personally, I get a Corey Locke vibe from Logan Brown.

That jump to the big leagues can be too much for some finesse players.

I see him having a long and successful career in Europe.
 

JD1

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Personally, I get a Corey Locke vibe from Logan Brown.

That jump to the big leagues can be too much for some finesse players.

I see him having a long and successful career in Europe.

Corey Locke was a rail thin shorter guy that didn't have the frame to play in the NHL in his era
 

NyQuil

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Corey Locke was a rail thin shorter guy that didn't have the frame to play in the NHL in his era

Logan Brown doesn’t use his frame at all.

The hope is that he’ll be good in tight but he has to be able to put up with the abuse. I haven’t seen that yet.

Wiercioch had a frame too.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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Actually no, I do not agree with that. I know there is always this idea among fans and media that skilled prospects should be played with skilled players, but I don't dig that. I don't think players should get any special treatment because they're a high pick or whatever. Should have to earn those opportunities like everyone else.

There's a lot of skilled player and a lot of skilled prospects on this team (or any team - this is the NHL), so why take a top six spot from a Connor Brown or Duclair, who are on their last chances to establish themselves in this league, or a Pageau or Tierney who are playing for contracts this year? I get that on the one hand, this is essentially what you're arguing for - that he should have to work his way into the lineup.

But there's a sort of developmental curve, where at a certain point, the amount that a player is developing playing top minutes at a lower level is less than what they'd get playing bottom six minutes at the higher level.

Now I'm not saying that's definitely the case with Brown, but he was almost a point per game player last year. Again, training camp and pre-season will decide things.

My main point is just, look at old Detroit, or currently San Jose, Boston, Washington, all these good teams that bring guys along slowly. Yes they tend to leave top prospects in the AHL for a while, but also, when a prospect gets to that point on the development curve where they're better suited to develop in the NHL, they have no issues starting top prospects on the third or fourth line and gradually bringing them along.


I think it's more a case that, a skilled player can only do so much to show his worth on certain lines. You can be the best playmaker in the world, but if you're getting the puck up the ice and gifting golden scoring opportunities to a guy with bricks as hands...you're not going to get much in the way of points out of it. You can be the best pure shooter in the world, but if no one can get you the puck, you're not going to score. You can be the greatest passer int eh world, but it doesn't mean a thing when your linemates act like the puck is a grenade.

Not saying you throw a kid on the top line when he hasn't done anything to earn it. But if you want to see what a kid can do, he needs to be on a line where he has someone to play with. Someone who can do a give-and-go, or who knows how to get into scoring position, or who can make a play with the puck.
 
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NyQuil

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I think it's more a case that, a skilled player can only do so much to show his worth on certain lines. You can be the best playmaker in the world, but if you're getting the puck up the ice and gifting golden scoring opportunities to a guy with bricks as hands...you're not going to get much in the way of points out of it. You can be the best pure shooter in the world, but if no one can get you the puck, you're not going to score. You can be the greatest passer int eh world, but it doesn't mean a thing when your linemates act like the puck is a grenade.

Not saying you throw a kid on the top line when he hasn't done anything to earn it. But if you want to see what a kid can do, he needs to be on a line where he has someone to play with. Someone who can do a give-and-go, or who knows how to get into scoring position, or who can make a play with the puck.

At some point you have to show what you got with what you got.

Zibanejad broke in finally with Erik Condra and Jim O’Brien.

Vermette had to toil in the bottom six.

Spezza had to earn his way into the top six.

If you can’t play in the bottom six, you are lacking certain fundamental hockey skills that are necessary for development into a professional veteran hockey player.
 

JD1

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Logan Brown doesn’t use his frame at all.

The hope is that he’ll be good in tight but he has to be able to put up with the abuse. I haven’t seen that yet.

Wiercioch had a frame too.

Weircioch was rail thin. Tall, but rail thin and imo was never strong enough to develop into an nhl player.

Brown doesn't need to pound guys. He can use that frame very effectively to keep the puck away from people. He is a huge man in terms of both height and weight. A guy that size bends over and puts his ass between you and the puck and the puck is 10 feet away from you. If you can't run over him, it's almost 15 feet to run around him.
 
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NyQuil

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Brown doesn't need to pound guys. He can use that frame very effectively to keep the puck away from people. He is a huge man in terms of both height and weight. A guy that size bends over and puts his ass between you and the puck and the puck is 10 feet away from you. If you can't run over him, it's almost 15 feet to run around him.

It’s a great idea in theory.

Remains to be seen if he can keep up with the speed of today’s NHL game.
 
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otown

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Brown has to come out firing on all cylinders this year. Granted, he has to be given some realistic ice time in order to see where he stands.
The decision may come sooner than we think. The Sens will ship him back to Belleville if he doesn't show signs of being an nhl'er calibre player at this age and stage of his career.
 

MatchesMalone

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At some point you have to show what you got with what you got.

Zibanejad broke in finally with Erik Condra and Jim O’Brien.

Vermette had to toil in the bottom six.

Spezza had to earn his way into the top six.

If you can’t play in the bottom six, you are lacking certain fundamental hockey skills that are necessary for development into a professional veteran hockey player.

Not exactly the point I was gonna make, but I completely agree here.

I think it's more a case that, a skilled player can only do so much to show his worth on certain lines. You can be the best playmaker in the world, but if you're getting the puck up the ice and gifting golden scoring opportunities to a guy with bricks as hands...you're not going to get much in the way of points out of it. You can be the best pure shooter in the world, but if no one can get you the puck, you're not going to score. You can be the greatest passer int eh world, but it doesn't mean a thing when your linemates act like the puck is a grenade.

Not saying you throw a kid on the top line when he hasn't done anything to earn it. But if you want to see what a kid can do, he needs to be on a line where he has someone to play with. Someone who can do a give-and-go, or who knows how to get into scoring position, or who can make a play with the puck.

I get the thing about letting a top prospect showcase himself, but to me, the only time that is particularly relevant is with an AHL superstar in his mid 20s who has never been able to click in the NHL. He's running out of chances, so you've gotta give him a shot with some skilled players, find out if it is worth it to put in the work with the player.

Otherwise, again, nobody should get special treatment and be forced past people on the depth chart because he's a top prospect.

Trust me, if a player is anywhere in the p/g range as a 20 year old rookie in the AHL, they are very likely gonna be an NHL player in some capacity, so you don't have to worry about them showcasing themselves to earn a spot. Let them play maybe 10-13 minutes a game with whatever is available, let them adjust to the pace of the NHL, learn the defensive game at that level, even make them learn how to make the players around them better - there's an idea I never thought of until just now, if you force them into a top six role, then they're only learning how to play with skilled players, but great players have to know how to be great with whoever they're playing with.

And then over time, there will be injuries or struggles with other players, and then you give them chances here and there, little by little, to showcase what they can do with skilled players.
 

Viletho

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Jan 20, 2015
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Logan Brown and White both had injuries in their AHL season. Brown had 0.89 pts/game and White had 0.67pts/game.

But where they asked to play the same role?

Brown has to be an offensive force. That's his only card. He is a big offensive player. And let's be honest, while he was part of the reason that line was so good, he had Batherson beside him who was even more impressive and Paul who was playing great.

In White's year in the AHL, he was given good offensive opportunity but was also asked to play a shutdown role with a supporting cast that wasn't near the level of the one Brown had last year.

It's not to start a debate on who is better. But it should be that way. Brown has to be a better offensive player then White. If he can't, what will he even bring? The thing that are said to be Brown's problems are exactly the thing White does normally well.

- Play without the puck
- Work ethic on and off the ice.
 
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Korpse

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Logan Brown doesn’t use his frame at all.

The hope is that he’ll be good in tight but he has to be able to put up with the abuse. I haven’t seen that yet.

Wiercioch had a frame too.

He doesn't use his frame well to take the puck, he needs to learn to use it better in loose puck battles and that's something that usually comes with experience and added strength. You can say the same for Batherson, though neither guy is going to be like Tkachuk in that regard.

I think Brown showed he was quite effective driving the net in Belleville. With or without the puck he knows how to get body position and shield the puck, that really isn't a concern. He's not the type of guy who's going to stand infront of the net and to be honest I don't think you want him there. He has such a unique skill set, it's rare you find a player of his size with the puck skills, vision and deceptive skating that he has, on top of that he has shown that he is a very smart player. And even though he will always be a pass first guy his shot is deadly. For me, offensively he is the complete package, there's areas to improve but the raw package is so damn impressive. I get the criticism of compete level but sometimes it's overstated.

When he gets the opportunity I really do feel he is going to take off quickly. The ES production might take some time but as a focal point on the half wall of the PP he is going to be a constant threat from day 1. That should keep fans of his back while he sorts out his ES play.
 

NyQuil

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Brown has to be among the best in the AHL at his age and stage of development if he’s going to walk into a top six position on an NHL team as a C.

We all knew his offensive ceiling is higher than White’s but the likelihood of it being reached is lower I think.

A DJ Smith team focused on systems and/or work ethic may not be a great fit for him at ES.
 
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Micklebot

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Last year was a bit of an odd season for Brown.

After game one, he steps on a stick in practice and is out 6 weeks with a knee issue.

He came back from that and after a couple pointless games started to pile up points in a 5 game stretch that culminated in a 4 pt game before going pointless the next 6 games. Went over a pt per game for the next 2 dozen games before relatively cold for his final 16 games with on 7 pts during which time he aggravated some sort of injury (might have been knee, I don't recall).

At his best, he was an absolute force in the AHL. If his "slumps" were all health related, he's probably not going to have much of an issue transitioning to the NHL should he stay healthy.
 
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