Player Discussion Logan Brown

[bert]

I dont think he is thrown to the wolves at all. For starters he is huge. He's not going to get pushed around or beat on because he's a rookie. Secondly he's pretty skilled. There's no question he has the skill to play.

If he comes to camp and had a good summer training I won't be surprised at all to see him stick. As others have said, you can insulate him by playing him 3C minutes and 1st pp and work with his ice time based on how he handles it.

I'll be disappointed and concerned if he doesn't stick. Presuming he is healthy, if he doesn't stick you have to question how he spent his summer

You really dont know if he is going to get exposed from a defensive stand point but the chances are its very high.
There is a lot more to playing hockey than getting pushed around. He will get exposed many times for being inexperienced. His foot speed, experience and strength wont be the same as a man who had played in the league for a long time. Browns compete level is very low for an NHL player. He has a long way to go, I dont think alot of people have watched much of him.

He has elite vision and good talent but he is so far from being a finished product.

At this point of his career he should be getting top 6 minutes and pp time. If he is not getting those minutes and is getting run over when he does it could seriously effect his development. And for what? A meaningless season where he is going to get very little support on a horrible team. I just dont get the point of the risk.

 

[Sweatred]

You really dont know if he is going to get exposed from a defensive stand point but the chances are its very high.
There is a lot more to playing hockey than getting pushed around. He will get exposed many times for being inexperienced. His foot speed, experience and strength wont be the same as a man who had played in the league for a long time. Browns compete level is very low for an NHL player. He has a long way to go, I dont think alot of people have watched much of him.

He has elite vision and good talent but he is so far from being a finished product.

At this point of his career he should be getting top 6 minutes and pp time. If he is not getting those minutes and is getting run over when he does it could seriously effect his development. And for what? A meaningless season where he is going to get very little support on a horrible team. I just dont get the point of the risk.

Most of the news out of Belleville last year from Mann was that he competed hard. The AHL is a good league, he dominated that league at times. Have we seen a reference in the last 1.5 years to suggest otherwise ?

 

[Crosside]

I agreed, I have not see him a lot ( maybe 10 games ) but everytime I never notice him on the ice. He don t hit, he don t skate, to lazy for me trade him

 

[Sensung]

More AHL games is always better than less.

So Connor McDavid would be better if he played 2 seasons in the AHL?

There is no one definitive path for player development.

If Brown has a good camp, he should stay in Ottawa to find out if he can handle the show.

 

[bert]

So Connor McDavid would be better if he played 2 seasons in the AHL?

There is no one definitive path for player development.

If Brown has a good camp, he should stay in Ottawa to find out if he can handle the show.

Yeah thats a relevant comparable a top 5 talent of all time compared to the other 40,000 players that have ever played in the NHL.

Like I said I agree he should make it if he deserves it, however I personally dont expect him to be ready for a top 6 center roll on the worst team in the NHL with 6 NHL games of experience. He hasnt proven he is ready for it yet some here act like he has. He hasnt proven he can be consistent and healthy at the pro level. Almost seems like we are discussing Batherson in this thread not Brown. Atleast based on peoples expectations.

It simply makes more sense to let him have more AHL time and bring him up after they trade one or two of Tierney, Pageau and or Anisimov. I see lots of people with Brown ahead of Pageau on the depth chart, I can guarantee you he doesnt play over him and he isnt as good an NHL hockey player right now.

 

[Micklebot]

More AHL games is always better than less.

Teams shouldn't develop a player based on where they are picked they should be developed based on what they need to improve on and how their game is developing.

If a team develops players differently based on where the player is drafted that is an incredbly flawed system.

More AHL games isn't always better. Development is best achieved by matching a players current abilities to the appropriate challenge. It would serve no purpose to send Chabot to the AHL now, he is well past, yet he has 43 fewer AHL games than Brown. At a certain point players will learn more at the NHL level than at the AHL level. Is Brown there yet? Idk, but training camp will help us find out.

Where a player is drafted is just an indication of where a player is in his development curve. It correlates, but is not the cause. Players that were drafted in late rounds are far more likely to need more AHL time, but at the end of the day, their perfomance is what should dictate when they move on to the NHL not their draft position. The point I was making is that given their draft position, it is far more likely their game was less refined then guys drafted in the 1st round. There are guys that buck that trend, but it is not the norm.

I never advocated developing players based on draft position, i just acknowledged what should be obvious: higher picks are typically going to require less time to get to the point in their development curve where the NHL is the best place to continue their development.

 

[bert]

More AHL games isn't always better. Development is best achieved by matching a players current abilities to the appropriate challenge. It would serve no purpose to send Chabot to the AHL now, he is well past, yet he has 43 fewer AHL games than Brown. At a certain point players will learn more at the NHL level than at the AHL level. Is Brown there yet? Idk, but training camp will help us find out.

Where a player is drafted is just an indication of where a player is in his development curve. It correlates, but is not the cause. Players that were drafted in late rounds are far more likely to need more AHL time, but at the end of the day, their perfomance is what should dictate when they move on to the NHL not their draft position. The point I was making is that given their draft position, it is far more likely their game was less refined then guys drafted in the 1st round. There are guys that buck that trend, but it is not the norm.

I never advocated developing players based on draft position, i just acknowledged what should be obvious: higher picks are typically going to require less time to get to the point in their development curve where the NHL is the best place to continue their development.

I guess my argument is Stone was far more NHL ready than Brown at the same age but they still sent him back, at a time when there was more benefit to the big club to have Stone up than there would be to have Brown currently playing, this is a throw away season.

I want Brown to work out as much as anyone but history tells us that players with his flaws, his size and his injury history always take longer to develop. He has missed significant time every season of his career, his career high in games playoffs included is 64. So he has missed alot of games from a development stand point. I just want to see more consitency before I annoint him a spot on this team and for him earn that spot he needs to be the best centerman in camp at worst the second best or he should start in the AHL.

Every player is different in how they develop, Chabot is a way better prospect than Brown and was far more NHL ready they arent comparable. My argument was that for players that have significant developing to do its more beneficial to take your time with the player rather than rush him.

Brown has a boom bust skill set, different than White who can carve out just about any roll. Brown is going to be a top 6 forward or he likely isnt an NHL player. Ultimately we all want the same thing here I guess we just have different perspectives. I see alot more upside and less risk by the sens taking their time with him. Others dissagree.

 

[OD99]

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing and while I admit that part of me wants him to have more time in the A as a dominant, "go to" player if he proves he belongs in Ottawa then he should be in Ottawa.

I do believe winning together at a lower level can help a teams chemistry and if, as we hope, a significant numbers of players in Belleville this year graduate to Ottawa then I believe it helps the move towards FYOUS but that shouldn't be a factor when considering who is ready to play in the NHL at the end of training camp.

 

[Micklebot]

I guess my argument is Stone was far more NHL ready than Brown at the same age but they still sent him back, at a time when there was more benefit to the big club to have Stone up than there would be to have Brown playing.

I want him to work out as much as anyone but history tells us that players with his flaws, his size and his history always take longer to develop.

Every player is different in how they develop, Chabot is a way better prospect than Brown and was far more NHL ready they arent comparable. My argument was that for players that have significant developing to do its more beneficial to take your time with the player rather than rush him.

Brown has a boom bust skill set, different than White who can carve out just about any roll. Brown is going to be a top 6 forward or he likely isnt an NHL player. Ultimately we all want the same thing here I guess we just have different perspectives. I see alot more upside and less risk by the sens taking their time with him. Others dissagree.

I think training camp will determine where he starts. When he was on his game last year, he looked every bit as ready as Stone imo. That said he played through some injuries and didn't look great.

I don't thonk ideologically we are all that far appart, I just want to see how much he has improved his game this offseason before saying he needs more time in the AHL.

He needs to earn himself PP time and a role on a scoring line with offensive minded wingers. That can still be a 3rd line but i don't want to see him playing with spare parts. If we can put him in that kind of role and he isn't overwhelmed, it could be ideal for his development. If we can't support him or he struggles, AHL is probably best.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think training camp will determine where he starts. When he was on his game last year, he looked every bit as ready as Stone imo. That said he played through some injuries and didn't look great.

I don't thonk ideologically we are all that far appart, I just want to see how much he has improved his game this offseason before saying he needs more time in the AHL.

He needs to earn himself PP time and a role on a scoring line with offensive minded wingers. That can still be a 3rd line but i don't want to see him playing with spare parts. If we can put him in that kind of role and he isn't overwhelmed, it could be ideal for his development. If we can't support him or he struggles, AHL is probably best.

Bottom line is he should get a shot to see if he belongs game in game out.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Bottom line is he should get a shot to see if he belongs game in game out.

I am sure he will get a shot.

 

[Sweatred]

More AHL games is always better than less.

Teams shouldn't develop a player based on where they are picked they should be developed based on what they need to improve on and how their game is developing.

If a team develops players differently based on where the player is drafted that is an incredbly flawed system.

More AHL games are not always better.
Brown is D+4.... we are closer to the over cooked side than underdone.

That would be like EB playing in the AHl for two more seasons. He may need it ... but that isn’t rushing anything.

 

[bert]

More AHL games are not always better.
Brown is D+4.... we are closer to the over cooked side than underdone.

That would be like EB playing in the AHl for two more seasons. He may need it ... but that isn’t rushing anything.

I have made countless posts in this thread proving that he isnt close to over cooked and why its in the teams best interests to take their time with him; not only from his development stand point but an asset management stand point too. There are literally some after the post you quoted.

 

[Sensung]

I have made countless posts in this thread proving that he isnt close to over cooked and why its in the teams best interests to take their time with him; not only from his development stand point but an asset management stand point too. There are literally some after the post you quoted.

You’ve made countless post contending he is close to over cooked.

You’ve proven nothing of the sort, but have made some good points.

He’s cooked just right IMO, but I respect you right to disagree.

 

[MatchesMalone]

I have made countless posts in this thread proving that he isnt close to over cooked and why its in the teams best interests to take their time with him; not only from his development stand point but an asset management stand point too. There are literally some after the post you quoted.

This reminded me of one of my old philosophy professors. This hilariously angry old bastard. He had this pet peeve about how academics and people in general misuse the word "refute". They'll just up and say "I refute that" when what they mean is "rebuke". To refute means to disprove, you don't magically disprove someone by saying "I refute that". Similar idea here, just because you've argued for something doesn't mean you've proven it, even if you've made a fairly strong argument.

As usual, I fall somewhere in between the different extreme positions. Of course training camp could change things, but given our center depth I just can't see how he is on the team to start the season. I'd like to see him start in the AHL, and be one of the first call-ups. He'll be up full-time for sure by the trade deadline anyway, after we trade some players.

But he's certainly not going to be a third line center with first powerplay time as someone suggested. As I've talked about before, this team isn't going to have a readily distinguishable first through fourth line. There'll be a lot of moving parts and the centers in particular will have to be interchangeable, but Brown will start out as basically the "fourth line center" and will be happy to see powerplay time on any unit.

But by the end of the season we should be happy for him to be a 12-15 minute center who sees some powerplay time. As someone else mentioned, I suspect this is a prospect we're going to have to be patient with and bring along slowly. I don't think he'll approach his prime until at least 24, probably 25.

 

[JD1]

This reminded me of one of my old philosophy professors. This hilariously angry old bastard. He had this pet peeve about how academics and people in general misuse the word "refute". They'll just up and say "I refute that" when what they mean is "rebuke". To refute means to disprove, you don't magically disprove someone by saying "I refute that". Similar idea here, just because you've argued for something doesn't mean you've proven it, even if you've made a fairly strong argument.

As usual, I fall somewhere in between the different extreme positions. Of course training camp could change things, but given our center depth I just can't see how he is on the team to start the season. I'd like to see him start in the AHL, and be one of the first call-ups. He'll be up full-time for sure by the trade deadline anyway, after we trade some players.

But he's certainly not going to be a third line center with first powerplay time as someone suggested. As I've talked about before, this team isn't going to have a readily distinguishable first through fourth line. There'll be a lot of moving parts and the centers in particular will have to be interchangeable, but Brown will start out as basically the "fourth line center" and will be happy to see powerplay time on any unit.

But by the end of the season we should be happy for him to be a 12-15 minute center who sees some powerplay time. As someone else mentioned, I suspect this is a prospect we're going to have to be patient with and bring along slowly. I don't think he'll approach his prime until at least 24, probably 25.

The first two paragraphs of your post were spot on but you kinda fell apart after that.

Playing Brown in a 3C role with 1st pp minutes is a way to insulate him and ensure he gets ice. He very well may be our best C on the PP out if camp so if he is, he should play there. But 5 on 5 he'll likely need to be brought along a bit slower and insulated defensively.

I just dont see a situation where he isn't here until the TDL unless it is injury driven and as far as we know right now, he is healthy

 

[Micklebot]

This reminded me of one of my old philosophy professors. This hilariously angry old bastard. He had this pet peeve about how academics and people in general misuse the word "refute". They'll just up and say "I refute that" when what they mean is "rebuke". To refute means to disprove, you don't magically disprove someone by saying "I refute that". Similar idea here, just because you've argued for something doesn't mean you've proven it, even if you've made a fairly strong argument.

As usual, I fall somewhere in between the different extreme positions. Of course training camp could change things, but given our center depth I just can't see how he is on the team to start the season. I'd like to see him start in the AHL, and be one of the first call-ups. He'll be up full-time for sure by the trade deadline anyway, after we trade some players.

But he's certainly not going to be a third line center with first powerplay time as someone suggested. As I've talked about before, this team isn't going to have a readily distinguishable first through fourth line. There'll be a lot of moving parts and the centers in particular will have to be interchangeable, but Brown will start out as basically the "fourth line center" and will be happy to see powerplay time on any unit.

But by the end of the season we should be happy for him to be a 12-15 minute center who sees some powerplay time. As someone else mentioned, I suspect this is a prospect we're going to have to be patient with and bring along slowly. I don't think he'll approach his prime until at least 24, probably 25.

So, I agree that depth at center will mean he will have a hard time locking down a spot, but given this is a developmental year (and understanding that injuries are not uncommon) I would not at all be surprised if he starts with the club but on a short leash. Team could give him a handful of games to see how he reacts and then re-assess. It's pretty a common strategy with high end prospects that are close. I also think you are spot on about the lines having lots of interchanging parts. Whether we call a line the 3rd or 4th will be pretty subjective, because Tkachuk and White are probably the only guys that are guaranteed a top 6 designation (whatever line either of them are on will be unit 1 or 2). Whether he ends up on a 3rd or 4th doesn't matter so long as the wingers are appropriate (don't stick him with Ennis and C.Brown, for example)

Having said that, I almost guarantee that he will get good PP right off the bat. Granted it was another coach and only 6 games, but he's averaged over two mins a game on the PP so far. His skill set is more suited to that role than any other player we have on the team.

 

[bert]

The first two paragraphs of your post were spot on but you kinda fell apart after that.

Playing Brown in a 3C role with 1st pp minutes is a way to insulate him and ensure he gets ice. He very well may be our best C on the PP out if camp so if he is, he should play there. But 5 on 5 he'll likely need to be brought along a bit slower and insulated defensively.

I just dont see a situation where he isn't here until the TDL unless it is injury driven and as far as we know right now, he is healthy

Funny how I see it as the exact opposite as you do. Who on this years sens team is going to insulate him exactly JD1? This team is barely an NHL roster the premise makes sense but if you critically look at this roster the concept is a fallacy. Innocent Bystanders post was accurate in the description of the player and how he is going to develop.

Throughout this thread no one has given me a single good explanation as to why its better for him to be in the NHL to start the season other than 'the best competition breeds the most improvment' which would be accurate if he had actually proven he is ready. Which he has not. What it really sounds like to me is fans that are hopeful to watch him because there wont be alot to be excited about and havent had much of an opportunity thus far into his career. Based on peoples expectations in this thread I dont think many posters are familiar with where Brown is at in his game coming into the season. I will now factually break it down as to the argument that its better for him to stay in the AHL.

-The most games he has ever played in a season is 64. Therefore he has missed significant development time over his career.

- Brown is only 21 years old and is late to physically mature because of his size. Big players always take longer. Innocent bystander is very likely correct in that he wont hit his peak prime until 24/25 which is very different from most forwards especially high draft picks. Due to both these factors the team needs to take their time with him and not rush the player taking an unnecessary risk in his development.

- Brown needs to prove he can not only stay healthy but play at a high level for long stretches. He went ice cold down the stretch last year when they were pushing for a playoff spot. This is evidence of potentially two things.

A. He has not proven he can be consistent yet.
B. He struggled with hard matchups.

- Brown has played a total of 62 pro games in his life and not a single playoff game.

- Brown needs top 6 ice time to continue his develpment. I think everyone ageees with that. The scenario on Belleville is far more attractive for him in this regard. (Better team, winning mentality and environment, easier competition)

- This is a throw away season so there is no need whatsoever to force him into a situation he is not ready for. When he gets a top 6 roll he will face the other teams best players, very difficult for a rookie NHL center to do. But not only that he will be doing it on the worst team in hockey with the least amount of support. Which brings me back to JD1's argument they will insulate him. Insulate with who exactly? Wingers like Ryan, Boedker, Brown, Tkachuk, Duclair or other rookies and 2nd year players? With a d core that has 1 legit top 4 d man?

- Playing in a winning environment vs the worst team in the NHL.

- Asset management. Pageau, Anisimov and Tierney will be in elevated roles, on soon to be expiring contracts. The icetime you want to give to brown would alternatively go to them. Putting the team in a situation to aquire higher end assets to put towards the 'rebuild'. If the team does trade 1 or even 2 of them 50/60 games into the season that is the perfect time to being Brown up.

- Right now the sens have 4 centermen coming to camp not including Brown. White, Tierney, Pageau and Anisimov. Brown would have to be at worst the 2nd best by a wide margin at camp (barring injury) to make the team forcing one of them to the wing. I just dont see it especially from a coach that all he has talked about is centermen back tracking the puck better and supporting down low.

I do think if he comes in and dominates camp he should start with the team. However based on his history and where his game is at i do not expect it. If he does make the team then struggles, there should be no hesitation to send him down. If he makes the team and they barely play him thats the absolute worst case scenario. With this management team I will put nothing past them.

In final conclusion barring injury I think he starts in the AHL and I dont think its a bad thing.

 

[Sweatred]

I think their is a good chance White isn’t at camp and may not start the season with the Sens. That could be Brown’s opportunity to start with the team and the negotiating pressure to get White to sign in the $2mill+ range.

 

[Crosside]

I think their is a good chance White isn’t at camp and may not start the season with the Sens. That could be Brown’s opportunity to start with the team and the negotiating pressure to get White to sign in the $2mill+ range.

I don t think so. White is gonna be sign before the 12 september.

 

[Sweatred]

I don t think so. White is gonna be sign before the 12 september.

That assumes White takes the low offer ($2.2/yr?) the Sens are offering or PD increases his offer. Im not sure either are a guarantee. The pressure should be on White to get in the lineup and prove he is worth the $4-5 million he probably wants.

If holds out he could easily lose some playing time to BT, Bath, Brown, Duclair, etc and end up short on points, a step behind the game while trying to negotiate again next year with a 13G / 25A type season.

 

[bert]

That assumes White takes the low offer ($2.2/yr?) the Sens are offering or PD increases his offer. Im not sure either are a guarantee. The pressure should be on White to get in the lineup and prove he is worth the $4-5 million he probably wants.

If holds out he could easily lose some playing time to BT, Bath, Brown, Duclair, etc and end up short on points, a step behind the game while trying to negotiate again next year with a 13G / 25A type season.

Why does that assume he takes an offer like that do you have information that confirms that?

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

That assumes White takes the low offer ($2.2/yr?) the Sens are offering or PD increases his offer. Im not sure either are a guarantee. The pressure should be on White to get in the lineup and prove he is worth the $4-5 million he probably wants.

If holds out he could easily lose some playing time to BT, Bath, Brown, Duclair, etc and end up short on points, a step behind the game while trying to negotiate again next year with a 13G / 25A type season.

we have no idea what either side is offering or wants right now

 

[Sweatred]

we have no idea what either side is offering or wants right now

Well... we don’t know but we can formulate likely positions based on precedent. You can say we have no idea what Chabot will want ... but that’s no true . We can say with confidence he will want more than $2 million and probably closer to $8-10. So although we don’t know ... we do have “an idea”.

 

[SENATOR]

Brown is overrated as hell. Does not want to change his game to be in NHL. Chris Neil had better hands then Brown. For Brown to be on this team, he has to be physical and not lazy.