Leivo or Ennis?

[saltming]

well I think the thing that's getting missed here is that it's really more "top 9" than it is "top 6" now, and there's 6 places he can play in that top 9 with linemates that would cover his flaws while letting him leverage his talents. If he could kill penalties that would open up a couple of more places, but there's no reason he can't play in the top 9 if he performs better than Kapanen or Johnsson in that role

I think the skating issue is getting misconstrued too, he's not a slow skater, he's a slow accelerator just like JVR was. Chasing the puck around when the other team has it is a weakness for him because he has to stop and start a lot as the other team decides where the puck goes, but hes good when his own team has it and is very good at keeping/regaining possession in the forward zone and doing something useful with the puck.

I don't think we should pre-determine with Leivo is until we find out, let his flaws present themselves rather than assuming they exist kind of thing

But even the weakness you mention, acceleration, will keep him off the team if there are 12 forwards that don't have that issue and still check other boxes.
I've always maintained it is his skating that keeps him off the team and though hes improved over the past couple years, there are still guys ahead of him in skating.

 

[Lauro]

Ennis had one good game, Leivo two. Johnsson and Kapanen zero.

 

[TheProspector]

Ennis really is a good player, which is what I said when we signed him. He's met and exceeded my expectations. It looks like, for now, his injuries are behind him, and he's playing high level hockey in the prime of his career. This guy has put up 22 points in 30 games against us as a Sabre, which is, of course, the team that he's done the most damage to over his career. I am very happy to see Ennis on the roster for a year.

Leivo plays a different game. What I really don't understand is how Mike Babcock salivates over players that are "heavy on the puck", and ignores the best player in the organisation in this regard -- Leivo.

I don't really see the two sharing the same role. Ennis is a top-6 guy. Leivo may be a middle-6 guy. The fact that Ennis can play with Matthews, and look great, means that we should probably not have him languishing on the 4th line. I'd rather see him displace Marleau.

What is pretty clear is that Joorish, who I thought was going to be much better, doesn't belong in the NHL. I'm also trying to figure out how Lindholm has caught Babcock's eye so. He looks awful.

 

[Randy Randerson]

But even the weakness you mention, acceleration, will keep him off the team if there are 12 forwards that don't have that issue and still check other boxes.
I've always maintained it is his skating that keeps him off the team and though hes improved over the past couple years, there are still guys ahead of him in skating.

I think that will depend on the other guys checking the same boxes as him, and if he's the player that we've seen in the last couple of years when he's used right that's going to be very tough to accomplish for the other guys. The possession and production/60 numbers that he's put up are well into 1st liner territory, so it depends on whether those are a mirage or not, but if those are real I don't see a scenario where the guys he's competing with all check all the same boxes

plus, size, Kapanen/Johnsson don't have that so there's always going to be that one. Personally I don't see either of those guys ever being the forward-zone possession machines that he is either, so I think it's going to be about finding synergies that make the lines with the best overall results given it's usage and if Leivo plays with a defensively responsible center and a winger with speed on the other side who can finish from within the home plate area I see that as a combo that will probably work really well. Leivo's stop-start footspeed is no worse than JVR's so if his possession game is fantastic, he's a good playmaker and still has that shot, I think thats hard to beat out of a roster spot if the selection is based on merit

I have concerns about Kapanen's brain processing fast enough to make him an offensive top 6 in a vacuum, I think he'll end up being Grabner offensively with Hagelin's defense. Johnsson I think has a shot to be a pretty good player, I haven't seen him be creative on his own but I think he'll be good all over the ice and can finish from in close. I could actually see a Johnsson-Kadri-Leivo line being pretty ideal - Leivo gets the puck to the other guys in the home plate area and both can score from there, the line is really hard to get the puck away from in the offensive zone and Kadri/Johnsson are both defensively adept enough to cover Leivo's transition speed

 

[Randy Randerson]

But even the weakness you mention, acceleration, will keep him off the team if there are 12 forwards that don't have that issue and still check other boxes.
I've always maintained it is his skating that keeps him off the team and though hes improved over the past couple years, there are still guys ahead of him in skating.

I think that will depend on the other guys checking the same boxes as him, and if he's the player that we've seen in the last couple of years when he's used right that's going to be very tough to accomplish for the other guys. The possession and production/60 numbers that he's put up are well into 1st liner territory, so it depends on whether those are a mirage or not, but if those are real I don't see a scenario where the guys he's competing with all check all the same boxes

plus, size, Kapanen/Johnsson don't have that so there's always going to be that one. Personally I don't see either of those guys ever being the forward-zone possession machines that he is either, so I think it's going to be about finding synergies that make the lines with the best overall results given it's usage and if Leivo plays with a defensively responsible center and a winger with speed on the other side who can finish from within the home plate area I see that as a combo that will probably work really well. Leivo's stop-start footspeed is no worse than JVR's so if his possession game is fantastic, he's a good playmaker and still has that shot, I think thats hard to beat out of a roster spot if the selection is based on merit

I have concerns about Kapanen's brain processing fast enough to make him an offensive top 6 in a vacuum, I think he'll end up being Grabner offensively with Hagelin's defense. Johnsson I think has a shot to be a pretty good player, I haven't seen him be creative on his own but I think he'll be good all over the ice and can finish from in close. I could actually see a Johnsson-Kadri-Leivo line being pretty ideal - Leivo gets the puck to the other guys in the home plate area and both can score from there, the line is really hard to get the puck away from in the offensive zone and Kadri/Johnsson are both defensively adept enough to cover Leivo's transition speed

Ennis really is a good player, which is what I said when we signed him. He's met and exceeded my expectations. It looks like, for now, his injuries are behind him, and he's playing high level hockey in the prime of his career. This guy has put up 22 points in 30 games against us as a Sabre, which is, of course, the team that he's done the most damage to over his career. I am very happy to see Ennis on the roster for a year.

Leivo plays a different game. What I really don't understand is how Mike Babcock salivates over players that are "heavy on the puck", and ignores the best player in the organisation in this regard -- Leivo.

I don't really see the two sharing the same role. Ennis is a top-6 guy. Leivo may be a middle-6 guy. The fact that Ennis can play with Matthews, and look great, means that we should probably not have him languishing on the 4th line. I'd rather see him displace Marleau.

What is pretty clear is that Joorish, who I thought was going to be much better, doesn't belong in the NHL. I'm also trying to figure out how Lindholm has caught Babcock's eye so. He looks awful.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but if Ennis was a top 6 player we wouldn't have gotten him on a league min contract for 1 year at 28 years old. Maybe you meant that's the role he can play, but if it's that he is a bonafide top 6 he's really never proved he can be that despite the tools

I didn't mind Lindholm last night, but we should keep looking for upgrades there. Brooks looked good

 

[saltming]

I think that will depend on the other guys checking the same boxes as him, and if he's the player that we've seen in the last couple of years when he's used right that's going to be very tough to accomplish for the other guys. The possession and production/60 numbers that he's put up are well into 1st liner territory, so it depends on whether those are a mirage or not, but if those are real I don't see a scenario where the guys he's competing with all check all the same boxes

plus, size, Kapanen/Johnsson don't have that so there's always going to be that one. Personally I don't see either of those guys ever being the forward-zone possession machines that he is either, so I think it's going to be about finding synergies that make the lines with the best overall results given it's usage and if Leivo plays with a defensively responsible center and a winger with speed on the other side who can finish from within the home plate area I see that as a combo that will probably work really well. Leivo's stop-start footspeed is no worse than JVR's so if his possession game is fantastic, he's a good playmaker and still has that shot, I think thats hard to beat out of a roster spot if the selection is based on merit

I have concerns about Kapanen's brain processing fast enough to make him an offensive top 6 in a vacuum, I think he'll end up being Grabner offensively with Hagelin's defense. Johnsson I think has a shot to be a pretty good player, I haven't seen him be creative on his own but I think he'll be good all over the ice and can finish from in close. I could actually see a Johnsson-Kadri-Leivo line being pretty ideal - Leivo gets the puck to the other guys in the home plate area and both can score from there, the line is really hard to get the puck away from in the offensive zone and Kadri/Johnsson are both defensively adept enough to cover Leivo's transition speed

Well I don't think they have to check the same boxes but if they have equal but different boxes checked, ie. PKing, but said player has better acceleration that Leivo, Leivo sits.
The one thing from your post that struck me and Babcock puts an emphasis on is getting the puck back, especially in the defensive zone and as you said Leivo struggles there. When he has the puck hes good, but babs wants to know you can get it back too.

 

[diceman934]

Ennis really is a good player, which is what I said when we signed him. He's met and exceeded my expectations. It looks like, for now, his injuries are behind him, and he's playing high level hockey in the prime of his career. This guy has put up 22 points in 30 games against us as a Sabre, which is, of course, the team that he's done the most damage to over his career. I am very happy to see Ennis on the roster for a year.

Leivo plays a different game. What I really don't understand is how Mike Babcock salivates over players that are "heavy on the puck", and ignores the best player in the organisation in this regard -- Leivo.

I don't really see the two sharing the same role. Ennis is a top-6 guy. Leivo may be a middle-6 guy. The fact that Ennis can play with Matthews, and look great, means that we should probably not have him languishing on the 4th line. I'd rather see him displace Marleau.

What is pretty clear is that Joorish, who I thought was going to be much better, doesn't belong in the NHL. I'm also trying to figure out how Lindholm has caught Babcock's eye so. He looks awful.

If you can not figure out why Lindholm has caught Babcock eye then maybe watch who he has played against. He was very good last night as he played head to head against Eichel and he out played him. He was easily the best player on his line. That will be our 4th line to start the season.

 

[Menzinger]

Lindholm has played well, which is good because there really isnt another viable option for that 4C.

Johnsson should and will be playing higher in the lineup than whomever wins out over Ennis vs Leivo.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Well I don't think they have to check the same boxes but if they have equal but different boxes checked, ie. PKing, but said player has better acceleration that Leivo, Leivo sits.
The one thing from your post that struck me and Babcock puts an emphasis on is getting the puck back, especially in the defensive zone and as you said Leivo struggles there. When he has the puck hes good, but babs wants to know you can get it back too.

I think Leivo needs an offensive role to be effective, so the boxes that he has checked will suit one of those roles and I don't see all the guys he's competing with checking enough to be equivalent, if Leivo's results in the last couple of years are real, we really need to see him more to know

I don't think that Babcock's comments have differentiated between offensive and defensive in getting the puck back, and don't agree that he struggles there defensively. He struggles in coverage in his own zone a bit with all the direction changes, but when he's near the puck he's one of the better possession players in the NHL - knows how to use his body, active stick with a brain that matches it's speed (ie not just swinging his stick around). He is absolutely excellent at stealing pucks, regularly goes into offensive corners against more than one opposing player and comes away with the puck under control and moves it somewhere useful. Owning the puck is a huge key to winning hockey games, I don't think there's any argument against Leivo being a huge positive affect on possession in general, so I'd like to see if that's real before we make any decisions

 

[crump]

I'm seeing the good plays Lindholm is making too. Last night on numerous occasions he fought for the puck and won the battle, behind our net, along the boards etc. He might not be a finished product yet, but for a guy coming in and playing for the first time in NA he's doing pretty good. He's better already than Moore was last year. He needs to clean up some special teams play and get used to the ice, but he's on his way. I agree that he's a smart player.

 

[saltming]

I think Leivo needs an offensive role to be effective, so the boxes that he has checked will suit one of those roles and I don't see all the guys he's competing with checking enough to be equivalent, if Leivo's results in the last couple of years are real, we really need to see him more to know

I don't think that Babcock's comments have differentiated between offensive and defensive in getting the puck back, and don't agree that he struggles there defensively. He struggles in coverage in his own zone a bit with all the direction changes, but when he's near the puck he's one of the better possession players in the NHL - knows how to use his body, active stick with a brain that matches it's speed (ie not just swinging his stick around). He is absolutely excellent at stealing pucks, regularly goes into offensive corners against more than one opposing player and comes away with the puck under control and moves it somewhere useful. Owning the puck is a huge key to winning hockey games, I don't think there's any argument against Leivo being a huge positive affect on possession in general, so I'd like to see if that's real before we make any decisions

I agree with what you say about Leivo but I recall Babcock saying many times how important it is to get the puck back to stop playing in the 'work' zone and get into the 'fun' zone.
One of the reasons he loves Zaistsev is because he considers him our best d man at breaking the cycle and moving the puck out. I think this though pattern, defense first, applies to our forwards to in the Babcock mind. So, Josh being a half step behind in that area puts him a full step behind a less offensively gifted player.
I would site Par Lindholm as an example. Babcock raves about him. When hes on the ice it's tough for the other teams to generate offense. On the flip side I don't think he will be an offensive force, yet coach loves him.

 

[Boutette]

If you can not figure out why Lindholm has caught Babcock eye then maybe watch who he has played against. He was very good last night as he played head to head against Eichel and he out played him. He was easily the best player on his line. That will be our 4th line to start the season.

And that line will just kill other team's 4th lines. We only need to be reminded what Kapanen was doing on his own last year. Other coaches were, here and there, matching their 3rd line against him and putting their 4th liners out against JvR and Bozak.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I agree with what you say about Leivo but I recall Babcock saying many times how important it is to get the puck back to stop playing in the 'work' zone and get into the 'fun' zone.
One of the reasons he loves Zaistsev is because he considers him our best d man at breaking the cycle and moving the puck out. I think this though pattern, defense first, applies to our forwards to in the Babcock mind. So, Josh being a half step behind in that area puts him a full step behind a less offensively gifted player.
I would site Par Lindholm as an example. Babcock raves about him. When hes on the ice it's tough for the other teams to generate offense. On the flip side I don't think he will be an offensive force, yet coach loves him.

If you keep the puck in the offensive zone you don't have to stop playing in the work zone, I'm sure that Babcock gets that

I'm going to try to find a tableau tool that I saw with the defensive zone clean entry/steals/suppression/clean exit percentages but I don't think that Zaitsev is actually that good at it, if I remember right Gardiner was quite a bit better. Zaitsev has a tendency to turn a clean zone exit into a lost possession by making "safe" off the glass plays that give the other team the puck back. He's no Polak but I think he would help his game quite a bit by having a little less propensity to make the safe play when there's no pressure

And I think Leivo's talent is being misconstrued a little bit here, he works best in the offensive zone role because his team is controlling where the puck goes or he's in close proximity to the puck carrier when they lose possession for him to get it back, but he's been a possession monster when he plays with other good players. He won't play the chase role well, but as long as he's playing as a winger he won't need to often because his assignment will be a defenseman. He's also quite good at getting the puck out of the zone in control once it gets moved up, so reducing the number of times that it needs to be retrieved in the defensive zone. Kapanen struggles on that front a bit, he doesn't feel pressure sometimes and gets stripped

 

[Sypher04]

Ennis thus far has outplayed Leivo

 

[TheProspector]

If you can not figure out why Lindholm has caught Babcock eye then maybe watch who he has played against. He was very good last night as he played head to head against Eichel and he out played him. He was easily the best player on his line. That will be our 4th line to start the season.

They got dominated by Eichel, Okposo and Skinner, who combined for 12 shots and 4 points.

On the first PK, where the Sabres scored, Lindholm is desperately out of position and trying to hook Eichel.

On the second goal against, Lindholm fails to cover the passer on a cross-crease play.

Lindholm bears partial direct responsibility for both GA. Yes, he played against good players. He didn't do well against them.

 

[saltming]

If you keep the puck in the offensive zone you don't have to stop playing in the work zone, I'm sure that Babcock gets that

I'm going to try to find a tableau tool that I saw with the defensive zone clean entry/steals/suppression/clean exit percentages but I don't think that Zaitsev is actually that good at it, if I remember right Gardiner was quite a bit better. Zaitsev has a tendency to turn a clean zone exit into a lost possession by making "safe" off the glass plays that give the other team the puck back. He's no Polak but I think he would help his game quite a bit by having a little less propensity to make the safe play when there's no pressure

And I think Leivo's talent is being misconstrued a little bit here, he works best in the offensive zone role because his team is controlling where the puck goes or he's in close proximity to the puck carrier when they lose possession for him to get it back, but he's been a possession monster when he plays with other good players. He won't play the chase role well, but as long as he's playing as a winger he won't need to often because his assignment will be a defenseman. He's also quite good at getting the puck out of the zone in control once it gets moved up, so reducing the number of times that it needs to be retrieved in the defensive zone. Kapanen struggles on that front a bit, he doesn't feel pressure sometimes and gets stripped

Babs was specific about breaking the cycle not the zone exits and I get the playing in the fun zone all the time ideal, but reality is that you will sometimes be in your own end without the puck during a game and when that happens Babcock wants players that will be good in the work zone too.

 

[OVO16]

How about both? Johnsson can take a seat in the pressbox

 

[Slyfox]

Both send Kapanen down

 

[Randy Randerson]

Babs was specific about breaking the cycle not the zone exits and I get the playing in the fun zone all the time ideal, but reality is that you will sometimes be in your own end without the puck during a game and when that happens Babcock wants players that will be good in the work zone too.

possession is a balancing act, it's not realistic that you'll be in the offensive zone all the time but maintaining forward zone possession is just as important as regaining possession in the defensive zone for the purposes of winning the possession game, which correlates strongly to winning games. Keeping possession or getting it back in the offensive zone really isn't different than getting it back in the defensive zone for the purposes of winning games

again though, I think Leivo's being painted as an abysmal player in his own end which hasn't been the case in his career so far. He looked less than stellar last year there when he was playing in heavy defensive zone start usage with Matt Martin and Dominic Moore because Leivo ended up being having to cover more than his share of defensive zone, but in high-point coverage like he gets with good players he's really not bad. Nothing wrong with putting guys in positions to succeed, last year Babcock really put him in the least complimentary usage

I'm fine with however it ends up as long as we're icing the best team, I think there's a lot of evidence that Leivo should be part of that (probably in more than a 4th line role) but if that ends up not being the case, that's fine by me as long as someone pans out. I really don't want us to overlook a James Neal level player that we could have on a 3-5 year team friendly contract when we could really use that though, especially for a 28yo failed top-6-or-bust UFA prove-it contract signing that will probably not stick in any significant capacity, I think that's a worst case scenario for us

 

[1specter]

At this point it's looking like Johnsson might be the one on in the box to start.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

How about both? Johnsson can take a seat in the pressbox

Both send Kapanen down

Unless Ennis can PK I don’t see this happening.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Leivo, Ennis is not head and shoulders above Leivo in any part of the sport besides maybe skating but Leivo checks off many more needs than Ennis does

 

[SoVi3t]

Overall, out of the two, I've enjoyed watching Ennis a little more.

 

[Buds17]

Unless Ennis can PK I don’t see this happening.

Though Marleau and perhaps Lindholm (maybe Tavares, or Marner) could assume those PK roles, I agree with you. Kapanen was good enough to make the team as a regular during the season, and Johnsson played in some of last season's most high profile games. Can't imagine preseason hockey will undo that just yet.

 

[GodEmperor]

Just go both until Willie signs and actually hold out as until 40 games if he is unwilling to sign, we don't need him right away or until late in the season anyways, the savings in cap space for the future would be nice too.

 

[ironrhcp]

I honestly think Ennis is on another level than Levio. Ennis has so much damn skill. If he was a little taller he would be such a beast. Babcock isnt dumb he put Ennis on AM34's wing for a reason. And theres a reason Levio after all these years still isnt an NHL'er