Recalled/Assigned: Leafs Loan Rasmus Sandin to Marlies | Re-Call Kevin Gravel

[hockeywiz542]

In an instant, the Sandin situation began testing the law of diminishing returns.

“I didn’t like it last game when he got hit in the head. I didn’t have much appreciation for that, to be honest with you,” said head coach Mike Babcock. “But I also say to myself: What am I doing? You want [him] to be ready for everything and I think that’s a big part of managing your assets."

“You’ve got to look after them the best way you can and sometimes you’ve got to be a prudent parent.”

That’s why the 2018 first-round pick found himself heading back to the American Hockey League on Thanksgiving Monday, with no guarantee of a return before next season.

It was the sensible thing to do.

Sandin averaged 12:13 across his first six NHL games, with absolutely no power-play time and very limited use on the penalty kill, and he wasn’t likely to see that change any time soon. Baked into all the promise the coach could see when he smoothly executed a controlled zone exit or jumped forward to halt a rushing opponent was a fear that his development might stall during the long stretches of inactivity a third-pairing defenceman often endures.

The question wasn’t so much is Sandin ready to be a NHLer right now — the eye test plus positive Corsi, scoring chance and expected goals numbers screamed “yes” — but might both the player and organization be better served by having him spend a second season with the Marlies?

The Leafs should be able to get by without him this season, now that Travis Dermott is approaching a return from off-season shoulder surgery and soon to become an option to jump into a top-four role if the Cody Ceci experiment or a further injury necessitate that kind of change.

Beyond that, the organization believes it has interchangeable depth with Justin Holl, Martin Marincin and Kevin Gravel currently battling for the sixth and seventh spots on the blue line, and Jordan Schmaltz and Ben Harpur among the candidates to be recalled from the Marlies should they need to dig deeper than that.

Barring a huge rash of injuries, the Leafs will likely resist using Sandin in more than three NHL games for the remainder of the regular season and playoffs, since keeping him under 10 for the year will see the start of his entry-level contract slide to 2020-21.

That would mean he carries a cap hit of $863,333 for the next three seasons — a not-insignificant bonus for a Leafs team trying to remain a top contender while filling in around the sizeable deals belonging to Auston Matthews, John Tavares, Mitch Marner and William Nylander.

They’ll also be looking to fill some significant holes on the blue line next fall with Jake Muzzin, Tyson Barrie and Ceci all set to become unrestricted free agents on July 1. There probably isn’t going to be enough money to keep more than one of those 22-plus-minute guys beyond this season.

 

[hector morrison]

He found out last year,so I'm sure this is the healthy he's felt at camp for awhile.

Perhaps he can make the most of this opportunity!

 

[biotk]

It's only laughable that you think you know what the result is of keeping him up with the big club as it just happened hours ago. Maybe wait and watch what Sandin does before making snap judgements and overreacting.

You have yet to provide any quote from anyone stating they wouldn't call up prospects?

You would think that someone who is named "Leafsman" would know the Leafs' development strategy that started more than 4 years and has been repeated by Shanahan, Dubas, Babcock, Keefe and Lou.

One of many examples:

Dubas: "I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time.

We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

Yup. This one is on you Dubas. And this one is more on management than previous failures because they had spent years developing the organization and acquiring the depth so they wouldn't be stuck doing what they think is the exact wrong thing to do with a prospect.

 

[Terrible GM]

This quote from Babs pretty much sums up the whole issue with Sandin this season. He was good enough to make the team but Babs views him not as a player he is coaching but as a child he needs to protect. Every player in the NHL gets hit like that, and it is no different in the AHL. Plenty of NHL players are smaller and weaker than Sandin. Doesn't matter. This quote also pretty much confirms that Sandin won't be back this season no matter what those in denial try to tell themselves. Maybe if Matt Martin was still on the team, as that is what Martin was really with the Leafs in 2016/17 for - to make Babs feel comfortable enough to let young players play.

Why not post ALL of Babcock's comments? Instead you quote only the part that drives your narrative. He also said Sandin needs a lot more PP and PK experience which he wasn't going to get. It makes perfect sense to send him down, specially after the last 2 games where he was out muscled rather easily along the boards.

I love watching him play, but let him develop during the season in the AHL and if the Leafs need him for the playoffs in a limited roll, call him up then.

 

[biotk]

Why not post ALL of Babcock's comments? Instead you quote only the part that drives your narrative. He also said Sandin needs a lot more PP and PK experience which he wasn't going to get. It makes perfect sense to send him down, specially after the last 2 games where he was out muscled rather easily along the boards.

I love watching him play, but let him develop during the season in the AHL and if the Leafs need him for the playoffs in a limited roll, call him up then.

So do exactly what I have been saying (and in the extreme minority in saying it) since the first period of the first game: send him to the AHL. It is not like Babcock didn't know exactly how much PP and PK Sandin was going to get on this roster prior to the first game of the season. Perhaps he should have brought that up sooner.

 

[Battle Lin]

rielly muzzin barrie dermott and ceci should be getting a lot of playing time, babs been mixing his top Ds in with his 3rd pair quite a bit so far...our number 6 D shouldnt be getting too much minutes, and should be a strong PKer, the team thought thats not a role for sandin and want him to get playing time i guess

 

[Canada4Gold]

I feel like Gravel is gonna get unnecessary hate just because he was the guy who got called up for Sandin.

Gravel was extremely solid in the pre-season and adds some much needed attitude in the back end.

I just wished it wasn’t for Sandin

Haha I read this as altitude as if you were saying we need big players, was gonna roll my eyes before I read it again

 

[Terrible GM]

So do exactly what I have been saying (and in the extreme minority in saying it) since the first period of the first game: send him to the AHL. It is not like Babcock didn't know exactly how much PP and PK Sandin was going to get on this roster prior to the first game of the season. Perhaps he should have brought that up sooner.

Ok I gotcha. I have to wonder if they had an agreement with the player to give him a taste. It's really hard to know whats being said with in management, but I would hope they knew he would be going back to the Marlies knowing next year there will be many spots to fill. Either way, I'm happy to see him go back down for his sake.

 

[OVO16]

Haha I read this as altitude as if you were saying we need big players, was gonna roll my eyes before I read it again

loll

 

[thewave]

I'd love to see some stability on the 3rd pair instead of this revolving door strategy. Stick with Holl and Gravel and see if they can develop into a decent pairing. The Marancin experiment was over a long time ago, time to pull the plug on this guy.

Marincin is the most frustrating thing about this team. He sucks, just get over it and move on. There are free players that can be had.

 

[hector morrison]

You would think that someone who is named "Leafsman" would know the Leafs' development strategy that started more than 4 years and has been repeated by Shanahan, Dubas, Babcock, Keefe and Lou.

One of many examples:

Dubas: "I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time.

We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

Yup. This one is on you Dubas. And this one is more on management than previous failures because they had spent years developing the organization and acquiring the depth so they wouldn't be stuck doing what they think is the exact wrong thing to do with a prospect.

Talk about not having the big picture! On Dubas? That's your take?

How about the other aspects that may have factored in the decision making process...not exactly secrets! Dermott being out provides an opportunity for others,yes? No clear cut job winners out of camp (save for Sandin) that threaten to establish themselves a permanent player(although I did like what Gravel brought) . Also,other considerations that I'm not gonna look closely at (but wouldn't doubt) are money and whether a player is Left/Right handed. Someone else mentioned that perhaps they are thinking ahead to the expansion draft.

I'm sure more goes into it than anything Blabcock has to say...but hey! You can continue to be wrong in your assessment as well...I will allow it!

 

[Canada4Gold]

Is it a loan or was he sent down? Does the terminology matter? I don't think he is going up.

Why is he "loaned" to the Marlies instead of "Assigned?"

Or 'sent down?'

It’s all the same thing. Loaning is just the proper way to say it because he’s under NHL contract not AHL contract. They loan him to their affiliated AHL team. People may say sent down, or assigned which is fine, it’s all the same thing.

 

[OVO16]

Marincin is the most frustrating thing about this team. He sucks, just get over it and move on. There are free players that can be had.

The love for Marincin is Mindboggling. I just cant stand him.

His constant poke checking a player to death is infuriating to watch

 

[biotk]

What evidence?

All the evidence. I have already posted on this board looking at every top-4 D in the NHL last year and showing their deployment during their debut season. It was overwhelmingly consistent. Young D who became top-4s either played a lot of minutes in their debut season (usually 20+) or they played few minutes and were sent down very quickly for the next year or two. For older Ds that was almost always the case as well, but there were a handful of cases where a D entered the NHL at age 23 or older, played low minutes (like 13 - 17 minutes a game) and unexpectedly eventually became a #4.

Plenty of top pairing D could have been brought up to the NHL a year or two earlier playing on the third pairing, but their organization wisely kept them down and then came up as 22+ minute, PP and PK, great D as rookies. That was good for the player and good for the team. This belief that the a high end rookie D should be protected on the third pairing and then will advance to the second pairing and so no has no basis to it beyond the myth that people built up in their minds because they felt that was what the Leafs were doing with Dermott.

 

[thewave]

The love for Marincin is Mindboggling. I just cant stand him.

His constant poke checking a player to death is infuriating to watch

He missed his true calling... Fencing

 

[Stephen]

You would think that someone who is named "Leafsman" would know the Leafs' development strategy that started more than 4 years and has been repeated by Shanahan, Dubas, Babcock, Keefe and Lou.

One of many examples:

Dubas: "I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time.

We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

Yup. This one is on you Dubas. And this one is more on management than previous failures because they had spent years developing the organization and acquiring the depth so they wouldn't be stuck doing what they think is the exact wrong thing to do with a prospect.

And yet Nylander, Brown, Dermott, Gauthier, Kapanen, Sparks, Johnsson, Carrick, Borgman, Rosen, Marincin, Leivo all of whom have had different levels of success have all received promotions to the Leafs only to be sent back to the Marlies for more development.

 

[Leafsman]

You would think that someone who is named "Leafsman" would know the Leafs' development strategy that started more than 4 years and has been repeated by Shanahan, Dubas, Babcock, Keefe and Lou.

One of many examples:

Dubas: "I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time.

We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

Yup. This one is on you Dubas. And this one is more on management than previous failures because they had spent years developing the organization and acquiring the depth so they wouldn't be stuck doing what they think is the exact wrong thing to do with a prospect.

I appreciate the quote and the work you put into providing it.

I don't think that this scenario contradicts what Dubas has stated.

They have not shuttled Sandin up and down. I believe what Dubas said was he doesn't want players bouncing back and forth between the Leafs/Marlies and it is more than accurate to say that Sandin has not done so. You can hardly fault Leafs mgmt for making the call. He was too good to go down initially but not good enough to stay permanently.


Not sure why you're getting so bent out of shape over it??? He got some playing time in the big leagues, not sure how that is anything but beneficial. You worried his feelings got hurt and he's not a big enough boy to get over it? What's the difference if he got the bad news now or a couple weeks ago? Who cares, this is part of hockey.

 

[biotk]

Talk about not having the big picture! On Dubas? That's your take?

How about the other aspects that may have factored in the decision making process...not exactly secrets! Dermott being out provides an opportunity for others,yes? No clear cut job winners out of camp (save for Sandin) that threaten to establish themselves a permanent player(although I did like what Gravel brought) . Also,other considerations that I'm not gonna look closely at (but wouldn't doubt) are money and whether a player is Left/Right handed. Someone else mentioned that perhaps they are thinking ahead to the expansion draft.

I'm sure more goes into it than anything Blabcock has to say...but hey! You can continue to be wrong in your assessment as well...I will allow it!

It is amazing that people here are so deluded away from admitting the simple fact that the Leafs screwed up here and that has resulted in them going against their stated development strategy which includes: "We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time" that they instead believe that the team is overwhelmingly incompetent like believing that they need to send Sandin down after six games because they need to get other players like Gravel enough games in for expansion draft but apparently were too stupid and incompetent to know that 12 days ago when they could have both followed their development strategy by sending Sandin down and got their vet Ds even more days to qualify for the expansion draft.

The amount of pretzels you need to twist yourself into to deny the obvious is staggering and pointless.

 

[biotk]

And yet Nylander, Brown, Dermott, Gauthier, Kapanen, Sparks, Johnsson, Carrick, Borgman, Rosen, Marincin, Leivo all of whom have had different levels of success have all received promotions to the Leafs only to be sent back to the Marlies for more development.

People work shockingly hard to be incredibly stupid. Having a player play back with the Marlies because the Leafs either did not make the playoffs or were eliminated from the playoffs is not the same as sending a player down from the Leafs.

Nor is it the same thing if like Dermott you are brought up for a couple games and then told when you are sent down that this is just for a couple games while they sort out a roster spot for you.

Nor is it the same thing when the player is older or viewed as the exact same kind of depth player who is not viewed as having top-4 or top 2-line potential and who is brought in for those up and down roles as Dubas has made crystal clear.

Nor is it the same when this happened several years ago because the Leafs' had not had a chance to build up the kind of depth they have now with Marincin, Holl, Gravel, Schmidt etc specifically to avoid what happened.

"We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

All the time is not the same as for 6 games.

 

[hector morrison]

All the evidence. I have already posted on this board looking at every top-4 D in the NHL last year and showing their deployment during their debut season. It was overwhelmingly consistent. Young D who became top-4s either played a lot of minutes in their debut season (usually 20+) or they played few minutes and were sent down very quickly for the next year or two. For older Ds that was almost always the case as well, but there were a handful of cases where a D entered the NHL at age 23 or older, played low minutes (like 13 - 17 minutes a game) and unexpectedly eventually became a #4.

Plenty of top pairing D could have been brought up to the NHL a year or two earlier playing on the third pairing, but their organization wisely kept them down and then came up as 22+ minute, PP and PK, great D as rookies. That was good for the player and good for the team. This belief that the a high end rookie D should be protected on the third pairing and then will advance to the second pairing and so no has no basis to it beyond the myth that people built up in their minds because they felt that was what the Leafs were doing with Dermott.

I am sure they like to bring most, in a walk before you run method. I am also sure that it depends on the situation . If the young player is needed because there just isn't anyone better available,then the team may decide that the gamble of 'ruining ' a young D is worth the risk.

For the record,I don't believe Sandin is suited for a bottom pairing role.I've always viewed that as a more 'rough and tumble' type position. I think that he would improve in a top 4 roll,with more minutes playing with a competent partner instead of the likes of a Holl,Marincin,etc.Obviously that would take moving someone out and since that isn't likely to happen,this is what we get!

The 6 game stint is a surprise to me,I thought 9 for sure. I really don't care what the Leaf brass/coach has to say about it...as they will say anything! I don't think the big minutes in the AHL will hurt Sandin at all,but I just think he is in a 'been there ,done that' situation. I would be willing to let him play alongside Dermott all season in a 3rd pairing because I feel they are the future and because I think he can handle it. Maybe the Leafs feel they need a more physical option now,hence the Gravel call up. I hope he does well!

 

[biotk]

I appreciate the quote and the work you put into providing it.

I don't think that this scenario contradicts what Dubas has stated.

They have not shuttled Sandin up and down. I believe what Dubas said was he doesn't want players bouncing back and forth between the Leafs/Marlies and it is more than accurate to say that Sandin has not done so. You can hardly fault Leafs mgmt for making the call. He was too good to go down initially but not good enough to stay permanently.


Not sure why you're getting so bent out of shape over it??? He got some playing time in the big leagues, not sure how that is anything but beneficial. You worried his feelings got hurt and he's not a big enough boy to get over it? What's the difference if he got the bad news now or a couple weeks ago? Who cares, this is part of hockey.

"We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

What has happened with Sandin doesn't contradict Dubas' statement?

 

[hector morrison]

It is amazing that people here are so deluded away from admitting the simple fact that the Leafs screwed up here and that has resulted in them going against their stated development strategy which includes: "We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time" that they instead believe that the team is overwhelmingly incompetent like believing that they need to send Sandin down after six games because they need to get other players like Gravel enough games in for expansion draft but apparently were too stupid and incompetent to know that 12 days ago when they could have both followed their development strategy by sending Sandin down and got their vet Ds even more days to qualify for the expansion draft.

The amount of pretzels you need to twist yourself into to deny the obvious is staggering and pointless.

Do you not see this as a unique situation? I mean really? They have a regular that is hurt. They have a budding star Dman able to play 9 games without affecting his status. They have contract/cap restrictions. They have waiver eligible players to consider. they have a coach that 's full of shyte. Sandins ability as a hockey player isn't negatively affected by any of this.

 

[biotk]

If the young player is needed because there just isn't anyone better available,then the team may decide that the gamble of 'ruining ' a young D is worth the risk.

There was no one available 12 days ago but now there is Gravel to go along with Holl and Marincin?

They simple screwed up here. It happens. But it should be admitted.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

"We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

What has happened with Sandin doesn't contradict Dubas' statement?

I think Sandin did show he deserves to be on the leafs. It's not anybody else's fault that Babcock thinks he's a delicate flower who can't handle even playing 3rd pairing minutes or taking a hit. It was a bad stretch of games for his development but Sandin will be fine. It really does look like Dubas expected more opportunity for Sandin and Babcock is unwilling to treat him like a professional athlete as opposed to a child who needs parenting

 

[hector morrison]

There was no one available 12 days ago but now there is Gravel to go along with Holl and Marincin?

They simple screwed up here. It happens. But it should be admitted.

I'm not seeing a 'screw up'...it is what it is! You really feel there is harm done here? I mean I don't think this qualifies as a yo-yo type situation. Everyone takes away whatever they learned and move on is all. It was cool to see the lad play,but as mentioned I think Gravel provides a more traditional set of values for a 3rd pairing. that said I've only seen him in camp,so I hope he can be an asset.