Prospect Info: LD Olli Juolevi - London Knights - 5th Overall 2016

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F A N

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Jimbo was quoted as saying they'd seen him a hundred times in London but it wasn't until they'd watched him in the WJC that they were convinced.

I don't think it was possible to have seen Juolevi 100 times in London unless each scout counts as one time and or each eye.

If Jimbo was so swayed by a seven-game sample size as to pull a 180* and draft him, that's scary.

Well VanJack did say "convinced." The fact is that the WJC is traditionally one of the few opportunities to watch prospects play against the best of their peers. Many scouts moved Juolevi ahead as the clearcut best Dman after the WJC and Pujujarvi and Laine firmly distanced themselves from Tkachuk.
 

Raistlin

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from what i see, the league right now has three elite D-men types:

the PP QB #1 guy like Karlsson, OEL
the 2-way guy with great first pass that helps transition game like Maata, ...Seabrook?
the elite defensive zone rock guy like Vlasic, Staal or ...Tanev?

maybe we should really stop with the OEL talk or the Vlasic comparisons,

a guy like Maata will be elite in a couple years, they are solid keys to a champion team, do you draft them 5 OA? well.... maybe its a bit high most years, but where else do you draft them? From what everyone is saying, his hockey sense is off the charts, and that is the most important thing for a D these days. Hes not the sexy pick, considering JP is taken directly ahead of him, but that's how the cookie crumbles and I don't think we will regret the pick.
 

Puck Ingrate

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I see a lot of T.J. Brodie in Juolevi's game and I'm surprised his name hasn't come up yet in stylistic comparisons.

Great hockey sense, excellent skating, and extremely quick transitional puck retrieval and distribution. Not necessarily the most offensively dynamic blueliner on his own, but his intelligence, quickness and two-way awareness allow him to generate chances.

This goal's a good example.

 

tantalum

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I hear a lot about his poise, positioning, ability to make the smart play, not flashy and not likely to put up upper end offensive numbers. And having never really watched him what it makes me think of is the guy the canucks just lost to free agency...Hamhuis. Never flashy but always steady and when in his prime a legit top pairing D-man.

If that's what they get for a top 5 pick there isn't anything wrong with that. If what they get ends up being more of a second pairing guy well then i think the hindsight will end up telling you it wasn't the right pick.
 

thepuckmonster

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I hear a lot about his poise, positioning, ability to make the smart play, not flashy and not likely to put up upper end offensive numbers. And having never really watched him what it makes me think of is the guy the canucks just lost to free agency...Hamhuis. Never flashy but always steady and when in his prime a legit top pairing D-man.

If that's what they get for a top 5 pick there isn't anything wrong with that. If what they get ends up being more of a second pairing guy well then i think the hindsight will end up telling you it wasn't the right pick.

I would comfortably say Hamhuis was a lower end #1 in his prime, so if Olli pans out like that I'm pretty tickled.
 

Just A Bit Outside

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Drafting at #5, Juolevi better turn into a #1 Dman or it's wasted opportunity IMO.

Personally, I wanted Tkachuk but if I were to have drafted a Dman it would have been Sergachev.

Time will tell.
 

WTG

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Olli was the best player on the ice during yesterday's scrimmage. I think that comparing him to brodie or lindholm is really fair.

If he is going to become a #1 I'd say that will be the mold of #1 he'll be.
 

Hit the post

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I would comfortably say Hamhuis was a lower end #1 in his prime, so if Olli pans out like that I'm pretty tickled.

Yeah I think some people here underate Hamhuis. We're not talking about Hamhuis as he is now (still a capable top 4 D IMHO). If Juolevi turns out to be something like Hamhuis of a few seasons ago - Benning will have hit a 'stand-up triple'.
 

CanaFan

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I don't think it was possible to have seen Juolevi 100 times in London unless each scout counts as one time and or each eye.



Well VanJack did say "convinced." The fact is that the WJC is traditionally one of the few opportunities to watch prospects play against the best of their peers. Many scouts moved Juolevi ahead as the clearcut best Dman after the WJC and Pujujarvi and Laine firmly distanced themselves from Tkachuk.


Bolded is a distortion of the truth. In reality there are countries in the tournament that it would be a stretch to call "peers" for a top ranked NHL prospect.

Finland played 6 teams in the 2015-16 tournament. 3 were of questionable quality (Belarus, Czech Rep, Slovakia) and 3 were what I would consider "peers" (Canada, Russia, Sweden).

Juolevi put up 6 of his 9 points in the games against Belarus, Czech, and Slovakia in games that Finland won by a combined score of 19-7. Now granted everyone gets their "stat padding" games like this so it evens out, however it is misleading to lump those into a pile with games against Canada, Sweden, and Russia and call them all "games against the best in the world".

Granted Juolevi played lights out against Canada, albeit a dysfunctional team but still a traditional hockey power. But interestingly he only put up 3 points in his 4 games against Canada (3), Russia (0), and Sweden (0). So for people who want to use the WJC as evidence of a prolific offensive game, I'd caution some restraint in using blowout games against second tier countries as evidence of that. Rather I'd suggest his 57 games against a more even mix of talent in the CHL is probably a better indicator of his offensive game circa 2015-16.

My takeaway from watching him so far is that his defensive game and ability to move the puck out of his zone is absolutely high end. But for those who harbor doubts about what his offensive ceiling is, I think those are legitimate questions that can't be washed away by looking at one game against Canada.
 

iloveloov*

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Getting the puck out of his zone *is* part of his offensive game. He can still be a fantastic driver of offense while not getting many points by setting up plays with smart breakout passes.
 

ijuka

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Juolevi put up 6 of his 9 points in the games against Belarus, Czech, and Slovakia in games that Finland won by a combined score of 19-7.

I don't understand why you just lump them together in a misleading manner like that.

Against Czech Republic, Juolevi assisted on the 4-4 equalizer and the 5-4 game winner. It was a tight game and he played a large part for Finland actually winning it 5-4. It was no "stat padding" game.
 

VanJack

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Drafting at #5, Juolevi better turn into a #1 Dman or it's wasted opportunity IMO.

Personally, I wanted Tkachuk but if I were to have drafted a Dman it would have been Sergachev.

Time will tell.

Canucks are heading into their 46th season and have never drafted a single d-man who was even in the conversation for a Norris Trophy....Ohlund and Jovanovski were about the best of the lot and they had to trade for Jovo.....this, despite the fact that the overwhelming evidence is you can't win a Cup without a Norris Trophy d-man ....Tkachuk may turn out to be the second-coming of Claude Lemieux, but you draft the impact d-man every time...and even if Juolevi is never in the conversation for a Norris, he's still a top-four d-man who'll play in the league for 15 years imo.
 

CanaFan

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Getting the puck out of his zone *is* part of his offensive game. He can still be a fantastic driver of offense while not getting many points by setting up plays with smart breakout passes.

Except that is much more dependent on your forwards offensive abilities then. Great when you're throwing passes up to Laine, Pulju, and Aho - the most dominant line in 20 years - but less so when it is going to Sven Baertschi, Bo Horvat, and Jake Virtanen.

And I'm not denying that part of his game (transitions) but it isn't what people are referring to when they use his bulk WJC totals (9 pts) to speak to a high end offensive game.
 
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CanaFan

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I don't understand why you just lump them together in a misleading manner like that.

Against Czech Republic, Juolevi assisted on the 4-4 equalizer and the 5-4 game winner. It was a tight game and he played a large part for Finland actually winning it 5-4. It was no "stat padding" game.

Fair, that game was close but the other two were blowouts. I was speaking to the "tiers" of talent at the WJC and disputing the notion that the entire tournament is a "best on best" quality. Half the teams he faced would be below a top CHL team in average talent given their hockey enrolment and league quality. To dismiss or de-value his CHL season in favour of 7 games against teams that include Belarus, Slovakia, and Czech Rep is a bad way of looking at things.
 

iloveloov*

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Except that is much more dependent on your forwards offensive abilities then. And I'm not denying that part of his game (transitions) but it isn't what people are referring to when they use his bulk WJC totals (9 pts) to speak to a high end offensive game.

That's how it's supposed to be. I'd much rather have a defender who thrives playing a synergistic team game with his forwards than an individualistic one that tries to do it all like Karlsson (who will never win a cup with that playstyle).
 

CanaFan

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That's how it's supposed to be. I'd much rather have a defender who thrives playing a synergistic team game with his forwards than an individualistic one that tries to do it all like Karlsson (who will never win a cup with that playstyle).

And that's fine if that's all you want/expect. I think there are some who are expecting more and (I predict) are going to be disappointed when he doesn't hit their OEL-production fantasies. But as a rock-solid, minute eating defensive defenseman who moves the puck out of his end quickly/effectively then I'm confident he'll deliver on that potential. I'm not sure it's the best use of a 5th OA pick but I guess we'll see how it goes.
 

HankNDank

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Juolevi put up 6 of his 9 points in the games against Belarus, Czech, and Slovakia in games that Finland won by a combined score of 19-7. Now granted everyone gets their "stat padding" games like this so it evens out, however it is misleading to lump those into a pile with games against Canada, Sweden, and Russia and call them all "games against the best in the world".

So he was still a PPG defenceman vs the top hockey nations in the world? Cool.
 

CanaFan

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So he was still a PPG defenceman vs the top hockey nations in the world? Cool.

Well 3 in 4 games or .75ppg. Which matches up almost perfectly with his production in London over 57 games (.74ppg) and 18 OHL playoff games (.77ppg). Of course he did have 7 in 4 Mem Cup games but outside of that his production has been pretty consistently around the .75 mark. Not bad production, but not elite. We'll see how his D+1 season looks to give an indication of how much further upside there may be.
 

HankNDank

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Well 3 in 4 games or .75ppg. Which matches up almost perfectly with his production in London over 57 games (.74ppg) and 18 OHL playoff games (.77ppg). Of course he did have 7 in 4 Mem Cup games but outside of that his production has been pretty consistently around the .75 mark. Not bad production, but not elite. We'll see how his D+1 season looks to give an indication of how much further upside there may be.

Ahh, when you said he played 6 teams, I assumed that meant 6 games, I didn't go fact check obviously.
 

ahmon

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T.J. Brodie is one of the best puck rushing D in the game.

Juolevi simply doesn't have that mentality/assertiveness in his game. Maybe a skinnier Hampus Lindholm.

Juolevi certainly has many of the traits you see in top pairing dman, high hockey sense, mobile and he's 6'3. I wish he develops a more "take charge" mentality.But he plays too passive game imo.

Watched parts of the 2nd period of the scrimmage. Juolevi made a lot of good plays defensively and started the transition well. But there was instances where the best play would be to "carry" the puck out rather than his patented quick pass out.
 

Tikhonov

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i can see it now in five years. Mathew Tkachuk is current day Dustin Brown, and Juolevi is current day Roman Josi. dude's got talent and will live up to fifth overall
 

biturbo19

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T.J. Brodie is one of the best puck rushing D in the game.

Juolevi simply doesn't have that mentality/assertiveness in his game. Maybe a skinnier Hampus Lindholm.

Juolevi certainly has many of the traits you see in top pairing dman, high hockey sense, mobile and he's 6'3. I wish he develops a more "take charge" mentality.But he plays too passive game imo.

Watched parts of the 2nd period of the scrimmage. Juolevi made a lot of good plays defensively and started the transition well. But there was instances where the best play would be to "carry" the puck out rather than his patented quick pass out.

I'm not going to read anything into an actual training camp scrimmage over what i've seen from Juolevi at large. And while i do agree to an extent about hoping Juolevi continues to develop a bit more of a "take charge" mentality...i'm really not sure i agree with the bolded, conceptually.

There are times where there's no real pressure or easily eluded pressure and the defending team cedes a player tons of ice to skate up and then make a play from there, which can be worth taking. Sometimes as a wildcard "puck rushing" can be a useful trick to have in the bag. But for the most part...i think "skating the puck up" is one of the most overrated skills in a young defenceman, and often trying to lug the puck up singlehandedly is a suboptimal play.

Comes back to the old adage, "you're never going to skate faster than the puck can move".

If there's a solid pass to be made up ice...either a quick easy outlet that gets your forwards moving in the right direction with speed, or especially that homerun stretch pass...that's pretty much always the better option. The ability to skate oneself out of trouble if there isn't a solid pass available, and to lug the puck to a different point to open up different passing avenues is crucial...but that's pretty much where the strength of Juolevi's puckhandling skills fall.


The whole...end-to-end rush from deep in their own zone thing is great on a highlight reel, but it's also unnecessarily high-risk. It's the reason a guy like PK Subban isn't on Team Canada. If the pass is there, that's the optimal decision the vast majority of the time. It moves the puck in the right direction more quickly, keeps the team in sync, and puts the defence in a better position to assess the rush before jumping in as the extra man offensively. It's what every coach ever talks about in "moving as 5 man units". The whole affinity for aggressive puck-rushing is the sort of thing NHL coaches generally try to coach out of their defencemens' games.

There are exceptions who are special players and get a longer leash to freelance. But for the most part, moving the puck quick and easy is king. Maybe not to racking up maximum points for a defenceman, but for keeping the team moving in the right direction - which can come with tons of points.

That's how it's supposed to be. I'd much rather have a defender who thrives playing a synergistic team game with his forwards than an individualistic one that tries to do it all like Karlsson (who will never win a cup with that playstyle).

Exactly. I don't know that i'd say you can't win a cup with a guy like Karlsson or a guy playing that way...Letang does verge on that type of play at times.

But as a whole, absolutely...it's about how quick efficient puck movement allows a team to play in "synergistic" units. It's what Babcock (best coach in the world apparently?) Team Canadas are built on.

Except that is much more dependent on your forwards offensive abilities then. Great when you're throwing passes up to Laine, Pulju, and Aho - the most dominant line in 20 years - but less so when it is going to Sven Baertschi, Bo Horvat, and Jake Virtanen.

And I'm not denying that part of his game (transitions) but it isn't what people are referring to when they use his bulk WJC totals (9 pts) to speak to a high end offensive game.

This is absolutely true. If you build a defence that excels in moving the puck up to skilled forwards who can do good work with that puck...you're completely at the mercy of what your forwards can actually do with the puck in terms of point production and team scoring. And that's where Juolevi fits. He'll be better and more productive, the more talented the forward group ahead of him is.

But imo, when you're assembling a team in a rebuilding project, you have to build on the assumption that you are going to assemble a highly talented group of forwards to put the puck in the net. Cup winning teams have good forwards who can take pucks fed to them in transition and put them in the net. So if you're not building a team around the idea of eventually having that quality forward corps...you're just building a loser. What's the point?


I'd even tack on the addendum that future forwards like Bae-Bo and especially Virtanen are all guys who thrive maybe even more than most in playing off the rush. Which is what quick transition puck-movement from the back-end a la Juolevi (seen in the U20s with that dominant attacking line) can set up.
 

F A N

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And that's fine if that's all you want/expect. I think there are some who are expecting more and (I predict) are going to be disappointed when he doesn't hit their OEL-production fantasies. But as a rock-solid, minute eating defensive defenseman who moves the puck out of his end quickly/effectively then I'm confident he'll deliver on that potential. I'm not sure it's the best use of a 5th OA pick but I guess we'll see how it goes.

There's quite a gap between OEL production and defensive defenseman. And since you talked about WJC production and competition, let's take the game against Canada. Juolevi logged heavy minutes, was on both the PP and PK, and was one of the best players in that game and picked up 3 assists at crucial points in the game.

While Juolevi doesn't have a big shot, he does positions himself very well to receive a pass and create openings for his pass and shot to get through. He moves more like Ehrhoff in the offensive zone than he does Tanev. His calmness and smoothness extends to the offensive end. He can handle the puck under pressure along the blueline and he can find the open man. There's obviously room for improvement, but when you have good forwards you need Dmen who can get them the puck. Juolevi is capable of being that Dman.
 

F A N

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This is absolutely true. If you build a defence that excels in moving the puck up to skilled forwards who can do good work with that puck...you're completely at the mercy of what your forwards can actually do with the puck in terms of point production and team scoring. And that's where Juolevi fits. He'll be better and more productive, the more talented the forward group ahead of him is.

But imo, when you're assembling a team in a rebuilding project, you have to build on the assumption that you are going to assemble a highly talented group of forwards to put the puck in the net. Cup winning teams have good forwards who can take pucks fed to them in transition and put them in the net. So if you're not building a team around the idea of eventually having that quality forward corps...you're just building a loser. What's the point?

I'd even tack on the addendum that future forwards like Bae-Bo and especially Virtanen are all guys who thrive maybe even more than most in playing off the rush. Which is what quick transition puck-movement from the back-end a la Juolevi (seen in the U20s with that dominant attacking line) can set up.

Yep. And plenty of forwards can benefit from having a Dman who can hit them in stride or pass to them tape to tape etc.

Teams try to build from the net out for a reason. Many successful rebuilding teams actually tried to shore up their goaltending right from the start. The reason is that when you have good goaltendiing, you can better evaluate the guys in front of them. The same principles apply here. I'm not saying D is more important than forwards. It certainly appears that when it comes to winning the Cup, forward depth is more important than depth on D. But you need a minute munching offensive Dman.
 
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