Waived: Kenny Agostino, Kevin Graval, Nic Petan, Garrett Wilson

[biotk]

They could have kept other players for that purpose as well. It’s not like Liljegren was their only option.

I ran the numbers - there was almost no way to do without keeping Liljegren, unless it meant waiving someone they probably didn't want to waive - Holl or Timashov). Days ago I said Liljegren would probably be on the pre-LTIR final roster for cap reasons.

 

[deletethis]

If cap space can't be banked when you're utilizing LTIR replacement space, why not just choose whatever cap compliant version makes the best roster? Is there something else going on? Like this makes Liljegren a bonus for being on the opening roster or something like that?

As I said yesterday, it would be a sign of growth from Dubas if he listened to his coach about the last roster spots. Waiving Petan and keeping an actual 4th line grunt in Nick Shore is an example of doing that.

 

[biotk]

If cap space can't be banked when you're utilizing LTIR replacement space, why not just choose whatever cap compliant version makes the best roster?

They have to worry about what is the best roster when Dermott and Hyman and if they can afford that lineup.

 

[RoadWarrior]

There’s this unfortunate tendency in leaf land to pit prospects against one another in some kind of Hunger games style competition but the reality is that Liljegren and Sandin are different types of players with different skill sets who play on opposite sides of the ice. They’re not in direct competition with one another. In fact they actually complement the other. Liljegren as a conservative stay at home guy who wins puck battles and Sandin as the smaller puck mover leading an attack.

We are allowed to like both players.

 

[biotk]

There’s this unfortunate tendency in leaf land to pit prospects against one another in some kind of Hunger games style competition but the reality is that Liljegren and Sandin are different types of players with different skill sets who play on opposite sides of the ice. They’re not in direct competition with one another. In fact they actually complement the other. Liljegren as a conservative stay at home guy who wins puck battles and Sandin as the smaller puck mover leading an attack.

We are allowed to like both players.

You are one of the people trying to turn a decision that is overwhelmingly likely to be about maximizing LTIR (something that the organization talked about being something they were going to need to do) into one that is about whether people like the player in question.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Was looking at CapFriendly LTIR FAQ.

I think this part here explains why they need to be as close as possible to the cap when the season starts:


"
When a team goes into LTIR, their effective salary cap, or upper limit, is changed. This adjusted upper limit is calculated as a function of the teams cap space and the player’s cap hit. This value is the “accruable cap space limit” (ACSL), and is the first value calculated. Second are the salary and performance bonus relief pools that are later explained below.

The accruable cap space limit is the teams new upper limit excluding their LTIR relief pools. If the team operates below the ACSL, they begin to accrue cap space. A team can operate up to the ACSL without using their LTIR relief pools, once they operate above the ACSL, they begin to use their LTIR relief pools. In the majority of cases, a team using LTIR will be using their relief pools. Only in uncommon circumstances does a team operate below their ACSL.

The ACSL is only calculated when a team first enters LTIR, if a player is placed on LTIR while another player is already on LTIR, the ACSL is not recalculated. In the event that a team stops using LTIR, their ACSL resets to the default upper limit of the active season, upon reentering LTIR, the ACSL is again recalculated.
"


When the season starts (and Leafs need to put players on LTIR, they want the ACSL to be set using as much of the LTIR as possible, because if they waited for Dermott or Hyman to come back the ACSL would be lower.

Another important note is that the Leafs this season will never have a point where they are using no LTIR, so they ACSL will never be recalculated.

 

[RoadWarrior]

While true that doesn't mean that Liljegren will be one of them. Makes more sense for him to be on the Marlies than being used as a practice D. Once the LTIR is placed, they can send Lilly down, bring up a cheaper D and then have some cap space (which could be used to replace one of the cheapest forwards with a more expensive one if they choose, or could be used to claim a goalie off waivers who is a little more expensive than Hutch, or whatever)

If they bring up another guy like Gravel they can only use him for 9 games before he has to clear waivers again. It would make more sense just to keep him up to start the year.

This idea that Liljegren is completely disposable as a prospect or should be disposed of because he was a Mark Hunter pick seems like new mythology.

Bottom line is that he was their best defensive shut down D man in the Calder cup playoffs. That counts for something.

 

[Leafsdude7]

It allows you to go over the cap by the amount you need to up to the value of the LTIR'd players. But if you don't need all the LTIR value on day 1 you don't get it and it's gone forever.

So, basically, by having a roster 10k short of the cap on Oct 2, that allows them to ice a team with a cap hit of that amount, but no higher, before LTIR, at any point during the season?

ie: if they didn't have Liljegren on the cap, they would not be able to go past $875k under the cap before LTIR during the season?

That doesn't seem to fit what I remember the last couple seasons being, since we were well-below the cap on day one before LTIR both years, but ended up picking up contracts putting us right up against the cap before the end of the year...

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Oh my God they cut Kenny!

 

[IBeL34f]

This is false, man.

LTIR is in addition to 81.5, no matter what our roster is set at on October 2nd.

This is not how LTIR works.

LTIR creates a relief pool that a team can use if they start to exceed their Accruable Cap Space Limit, which is determined based on the team's current cap space at the time the player is placed on LTIR - It is not just a black-and-white increase of the cap hit of the LTIR player to the $81.5M salary cap.

So Horton, for example, is a $5.3M cap hit on LTIR - If the Leafs are at $81.5M in active salary on opening day (when they place Horton on LTIR), then the Leafs can still operate at an $81.5M cap before needing to use their LTIR relief pool ($5.3M), because their ACSL is the same $81.5M. However, if the Leafs are only at $80.2M in active salary on opening day (when they place Horton on LTIR) then that becomes their ACSL and the Leafs now have to start using their LTIR relief pool ($5.3M) once their active salary exceeds $80.2M instead of $81.5M.

LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[4thline]

So, basically, by having a roster 10k short of the cap on Oct 2, that allows them to ice a team with a cap hit of that amount, but no higher, before LTIR, at any point during the season?

ie: if they didn't have Liljegren on the cap, they would not be able to go past $875k under the cap before LTIR during the season?

That doesn't seem to fit what I remember the last couple seasons being, since we were well-below the cap before LTIR both years, but ended up picking up contracts putting us right up against the cap before the end of the year...

The timing of when you place players on LTIR is very important. Having do it on day it on day 1 is very different than doing it mid year.

But essentially yes. If we sent Liljegren down and kept Gravel/Schmaltz we'd be essentially lighting the difference in their cap hits on fire.

 

[RoadWarrior]

You are one of the people trying to turn a decision that is overwhelmingly likely to be about maximizing LTIR (something that the organization talked about being something they were going to need to do) into one that is about whether people like the player in question.

I disagree.

There a sense that the leafs can only have one rookie D man in the lineup at a time and it must be Sandin so by default Liljegren gets the boot.

These are people who didn’t watch the Marlies last year.

 

[IBeL34f]

Oh my God they cut Kenny!

Those bastards!

 

[Leafsdude7]

This is not how LTIR works.

LTIR creates a relief pool that a team can use if they start to exceed their Accruable Cap Space Limit, which is determined based on the team's current cap space at the time the player is placed on LTIR - It is not just a black-and-white increase of the cap hit of the LTIR player to the $81.5M salary cap.

So Horton, for example, is a $5.3M cap hit on LTIR - If the Leafs are at $81.5M in active salary on opening day (when they place Horton on LTIR), then the Leafs can still operate at an $81.5M cap before needing to use their LTIR relief pool ($5.3M), because their ACSL is the same $81.5M. However, if the Leafs are only at $80.2M in active salary on opening day (when they place Horton on LTIR) then that becomes their ACSL and the Leafs now have to start using their LTIR relief pool ($5.3M) once their active salary exceeds $80.2M instead of $81.5M.

LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

So it's about using the LTIR pool, not about resetting a hard cap limit?

Well, then my question is, what's the negative in using the LTIR pool? Is there even one?

 

[IBeL34f]

So it's about using the LTIR pool, not about resetting a hard cap limit?

Well, then my question is, what's the negative in using the LTIR pool? Is there even one?

If you operate below your ACSL you can build up legitimate cap space throughout the year, so there's that. Dipping into your relief pool would mean that you can't do that, but (to my knowledge at least) that would be the only "negative".

But resetting the team's cap limit is a pretty big deal, because that determines when we have to use that relief pool, and has a direct impact on how much cap space we can build up if we operate below our ACSL.

 

[stickty111]

If they bring up another guy like Gravel they can only use him for 9 games before he has to clear waivers again. It would make more sense just to keep him up to start the year.

This idea that Liljegren is completely disposable as a prospect or should be disposed of because he was a Mark Hunter pick seems like new mythology.

Bottom line is that he was their best defensive shut down D man in the Calder cup playoffs. That counts for something.

I have been called being biased towards Dubas from the Hunter surpporters. Yes I prefer Dubas but if I was biased against Hunter, why do I like Lilly over Sandin. Lilly was a Hunter pick. I also am a fan of Bracco, Lindgren, Woll, Marner, Dermott, among others. These were all Hunter picks.

 

[deletethis]

1 week on an NHL roster is about 30 grand for Liljegren compared to 2500 per week in the A. It may be as simple as that: "Don't be discouraged, we've seen the hard work you've put in. We believe in you."

 

[Leafsdude7]

If you operate below your ACSL you can build up legitimate cap space throughout the year, so there's that. Dipping into your relief pool would mean that you can't do that, but (to my knowledge at least) that would be the only "negative".

But resetting the team's cap limit is a pretty big deal, because that determines when we have to use that relief pool, and has a direct impact on how much cap space we can build up if we operate below our ACSL.

I guess the simplest question to get the answer I'm looking for is to ask, what happens if, on October 4th, we're at 81.45 on the cap, considering we'll be at 81.39 on October 2nd? Are we over the cap and therefore not cap compliant, or does it just cause LTIR to kick in for that added $60k and something something, I don't know happens?

 

[Once]

Happy to see Tima get the nod. Been a fan since his Rempart days. I think he fits the ideal Dubas/Babcock 4th line. Fast, tenacious, cycle, some skill, sometimes needs to choose the simpler play. The only problem is the other wing (Spezza) is more suited for the centre position on that 4th line (GOAT). You'd have to imagine, and this rests on Tima performing, that when Hyman is back you slot both Tima and Moore on either side of GOAT/Spezza.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I have been called being biased towards Dubas from the Hunter surpporters. Yes I prefer Dubas but if I was biased against Hunter, why do I like Lilly over Sandin. Lilly was a Hunter pick. I also am a fan of Bracco, Lindgren, Woll, Marner, Dermott, among others. These were all Hunter picks.

There is a trend in management across all sports to favour their own hirings over the previous management personnel. That’s just human nature. However I wouldn’t make that assumption with Dubas. Analytics is a process of removing bias from player assessment. I think he can be more objective than people are giving him credit for.

Liljegren was really good in the playoffs last season and Dubas follows the Marlies closely.

 

[IBeL34f]

I guess the simplest question to get the answer I'm looking for is to ask, what happens if, on October 4th, we're at 81.45 on the cap, considering we'll be at 81.39 on October 2nd? Are we over the cap and therefore not cap compliant, or does it just cause LTIR to kick in for that added $60k and something something, I don't know happens?

We would start dipping into our LTIR relief pool at that point. I'm not 100% sure how the daily cap and LTIR calculations are made, though, so someone smarter than I am would have to explain that aspect of the process.

 

[Leafsdude7]

We would start dipping into our LTIR relief pool at that point. I'm not 100% sure how the daily cap and LTIR calculations are made, though, so someone smarter than I am would have to explain that aspect of the process.

Which I guess kind of takes me back to my original question before: what's the negative to dipping into our LTIR relief pool? Is there one?

 

[biotk]

I disagree.

There a sense that the leafs can only have one rookie D man in the lineup at a time and it must be Sandin so by default Liljegren gets the boot.

These are people who didn’t watch the Marlies last year.

No one cares if there are two rookies on D. People care if a player, who is clearly not ready for the NHL, sits on the sidelines instead of actually getting better on the Marlies.

 

[IBeL34f]

Which I guess kind of takes me back to my original question before: what's the negative to dipping into our LTIR relief pool? Is there one?

Only that it's finite, and that we can't accumulate any additional cap space while operating at or above our ACSL.

 

[Leafsdude7]

Only that it's finite, and that we can't accumulate any additional cap space while operating at or above our ACSL.

I'll put my ETA here in response to this:

ETA: Oh, you did say:

If you operate below your ACSL you can build up legitimate cap space throughout the year, so there's that.

That "buil[t] up cap space" would go towards taking care of things like player bonuses, right? 'Cause, of course, there's not really a benefit of building cap space when you're already basically at the hard limit for AAV.