Joshua Leivo

[ottomaddox]

Leivo is not where the real problem is.

Marleau, Enis, Johnsson these guys are all playing like garbage. Marleau may be done as an nhler. He needs to be moved out of the top 6 asap. He does nothing on the ice but take up space. He does not forecheck, he does not backcheck, he does not score. He is filler at this stage.

That is a ****load of players to replace. Where are the Leafs going to get 4 guys (that includes Leivo) who are all better than them? What do we do with Ennis, Marleau, Johnsson, and Lenovo? Just take them out to the wood shed?

I don't disagree. These players are all falling short, but it is a big problem to handle.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Impressive but when I look at Leivo's numbers
I see 12 GP 1 G 2 A -4 7 PM S% 6.7. If this were a player on another team, we would say MEH.

yes, and people would have said that about Kapanen before he got a real opportunity. that doesn't make it smart

 

[Gary Nylund]

Impressive but when I look at Leivo's numbers
I see 12 GP 1 G 2 A -4 7 PM S% 6.7. If this were a player on another team, we would say MEH.

And I'd say that's nowhere close to enough information to make a judgement one way or the other.

Now in Leivo's case, I've seen him play myself and he's looked quite good (as has been the case for a couple of years now). I'm really glad he's getting some PP time, hopefully if others continue to suck he'll get a chance to play higher up in the lineup and get more than 10 minutes a game.

 

[ToneDog]

yes, and people would have said that about Kapanen before he got a real opportunity. that doesn't make it smart

Come on, Kappy was a 1st round pick and was considered to have a higher ceiling than Leivo. Kappy has taken the next step and Josh has not. I hope he does but how many more chances does he get before Babs is done with him ?

 

[thewave]

last year Babcock didn't give him a fair shake playing the likes of Martin and a fading fast Uncle Leo.

This year I think Babcock is utilizing him properly. One could argue he should be playing on the 3rd line, but he's doing well on the fourth line imo. Babcock using him on the second power play unit is surprising to me, but encouraging to see his dog house isn't a ticket out of town.

Unless they're show casing him for a trade, in which case all the Leivo haters will have to find another player to blame the Leaf's woes on.

I think he is a fine 4th liner so far. I have absolutely no problem with him as is, not a liability. The issue I am taking here is that there are players not being held accountable for awful play over many games with no shot being given to the player performing better.

 

[rumman]

I think he is a fine 4th liner so far. I have absolutely no problem with him as is, not a liability. The issue I am taking here is that there are players not being held accountable for awful play over many games with no shot being given to the player performing better.

True that.

 

[ToneDog]

I think he is a fine 4th liner so far. I have absolutely no problem with him as is, not a liability. The issue I am taking here is that there are players not being held accountable for awful play over many games with no shot being given to the player performing better.

We'll be in good shape with a 4th line of Par, Goat and Leivo.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Come on, Kappy was a 1st round pick and was considered to have a higher ceiling than Leivo. Kappy has taken the next step and Josh has not. I hope he does but how many more chances does he get before Babs is done with him ?

it seems like you're missing the point. Draft pedigree and ceiling have nothing to do with current performance. People were writing Kapanen off when he was struggling to produce on the 4th line, even though signs were pointing to a good performance slowed down by his linemates. Leivo is the same way

 

[Randy Randerson]

I'll preface by saying I'm a big Leivo fan. He hasn't finished like you would like to see so far, but other than that I don't know how anyone could expect more than you're getting from him, he's noticeably good on every shift - steals pucks, keeps pucks in the offensive zone, gets them to the dangerous areas for linemates. I think he has the James Neal/JVR type offensive upside, but he's not going to be a one man wrecking crew like you would get with a Marner/Matthews, he needs guys with talent around him. Look at the volume and balance of shots/shot attempts his line generates and he's playing with a guy who was notably less than a scoring line talent (and wasn't considered to be a likely NHL'er a month ago) in Gauthier and a scrap-heap pickup in Ennis. Put him with good players and he'll help those lines produce scoring, put him with the guys he's with now and he'll help you win by possession.

You're seeing the good Josh Leivo, a guy who even in a 4th line role will give your team a chance to score and keep the other team from having that same chance at a hugely favourable clip. I think this thread is a reaction to Leivo whiffing on a breakaway...that he created going 1 on 2 to come away with the puck and a clear lane to the net, you should count that as a positive.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Come on, Kappy was a 1st round pick and was considered to have a higher ceiling than Leivo. Kappy has taken the next step and Josh has not. I hope he does but how many more chances does he get before Babs is done with him ?

This makes no sense as Leivo has done quite well almost every time he's given a chance but no matter how well he plays he gets benched again.

 

[Buds17]

Consistent presence in the lineup so far this season. Looks to be on the way to the minimum of 80 NHL games too, meaning he'd only be an RFA. Seems to be doing well enough.

 

[GoonieFace]

So whats the real argument here? Are we expecting Leivo to be a top 6 forward? Essentially he is a bottom 6 forward, nothing really special, there are more than 100 Josh Leivo's in the NHL. So its expectations really. I expect him to be a borderline NHL'er, I really don't see anything more.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I am not a Leivo fan. But this year he was been a positive surprise to me. Certainly he is a middle of the pack forward on this team. His stats look good. The eye test shows he is working hard every shift. He deserves on merit to be a regular in this lineup. He is playing better than Brownie, Johnsson, Marleau and Ennis which none of us would have predicted at start of season. I would say Hyman is playing much better than Leivo but they just may be because he is faster and more dogged on the puck.

I do not know why the 4 guys i mentioned are having such a lousy start to the season. But our coach better figure it out soon. Personally I think Ennis was always an insurance signing. My guess is when Nylander signs then Ennis is cut much like he was in Minnesota. But Johnsson Marleau and Brownie I expected a hell of a lot more from each of them. When you are getting outplayed by Leivo it is concerning. My personal opinion is Marleau is done. Although he had a good start to last season he started to fade over last part of season. This season he is a total passenger. But we took a big risk with that signing and this was always a real possibility.

 

[frog]

If Leivo isn't an NHL player, then I wonder what Marleau, Brown, Ennis and Johnsson are, because Josh was better than them in almost every game this season so far.

He's about the same as Ennis and probably better than Johnsson.. Dont confuse bad with boring.. Marleau and Brown have played very boring literally nothing really happens but Brown at least still beats out a few icings a game, pkills, and had some forechecks that produced a few turnovers. If Leivo isnt scoring they are about the same except marleau and brown are twice as fast. imo

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I disagree Marleau has looked slow this year. And he is like tits on a bull in his own end absolutely 100% useless much like JVR was but at least he scored. And he never ever creates any kind of forecheck ever. His only useful plays now are taking a long pass from a D and then dumping it in for a change. or taking and giving a pass on a line rush. Thats it thats all he does.

 

[thewave]

He's about the same as Ennis and probably better than Johnsson.. Dont confuse bad with boring.. Marleau and Brown have played very boring literally nothing really happens but Brown at least still beats out a few icings a game, pkills, and had some forechecks that produced a few turnovers. If Leivo isnt scoring they are about the same except marleau and brown are twice as fast. imo

You should also mention here that most times that he beats out an icing he chips the puck back to the other team. Then you should also mention that when he produces a turnover he often ditches the puck again. He is FANTASTIC AT THE PK, actually his ES play is probably the same as his PK. Lets not even talk about him entering the zone or carrying the puck past 3 strides... last game did you see how the top of his body moved too far forward and he almost lost balance with the puck, he lost it of course, he wasn't touched either.

 

[Subway Schenn]

Filler. Same as Jeremy Williams et al.

 

[Menzinger]

Folks should realize with Kapaens recent spark in offence that some guys are really impacted by usage when it comes to numbers

Edit: silly autocorrect typo

 

[Lauro]

Leafs Report Cards: Game 12 vs. Calgary by Dom Luszczyszyn
Josh Leivo - 3 Stars (4th best winger, again) - 'not a fourth line forward'
I will forever stan for Leivo who is very clearly an NHL forward and very clearly a top-nine forward at that. Glad he’s getting an opportunity and he looked pretty good tonight with some solid forechecking, creating some good chances in limited minutes.

 

[ottomaddox]

I'm admittedly not a big stats guy so perhaps someone can help me out here. I had a quick peek at Leivo's numbers and I see this:

His CF% is at 58.6, highest on the team.

His FF% is at 57.8, also highest on the team.

When I factor in that his DZone Start% is at 64.4, 2nd highest on the team, those numbers look downright spectacular.

Now I imagine that the formula that takes these stats and ends up with "not an NHL player" is a complicated one, perhaps someone can lay it out for me? At least I don't think it's based on the famously fallible eye test because by that also, Leivo has looked quite good, at least to me.

It's hard to disagree with those numbers but do they equate to results?

Results are goals, assists, points and wins.

Leivo might be doing a lot of good things, but if he's getting 1 goal in 22 games then we have to set aside the analytics.

Don't we?

 

[LeafingTheWay]

And I'd say that's nowhere close to enough information to make a judgement one way or the other.

Now in Leivo's case, I've seen him play myself and he's looked quite good (as has been the case for a couple of years now). I'm really glad he's getting some PP time, hopefully if others continue to suck he'll get a chance to play higher up in the lineup and get more than 10 minutes a game.

Totally agreed. I've really liked Leivo's game, even if the point totals haven't shown it yet.

The two main things he needs to work on is shooting more and work on his first couple of strides (The same improvement Kadri made in 2015-2016).

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's hard to disagree with those numbers but do they equate to results?

Results are goals, assists, points and wins.

Leivo might be doing a lot of good things, but if he's getting 1 goal in 22 games then we have to set aside the analytics.

Don't we?

Why 22 games? Seems like an arbitrary number, perhaps we should see how many minutes he plays in those games etc.?

I see no need to "set aside" anything, why would we do that? Gather all the information, watch every game and as the sample size grows all evaluations become more meaningful. I for example watch every game and i don't need numbers to tell me that he's doing pretty good. The stats do seem to back that up though.

 

[frog]

You should also mention here that most times that he beats out an icing he chips the puck back to the other team. Then you should also mention that when he produces a turnover he often ditches the puck again. He is FANTASTIC AT THE PK, actually his ES play is probably the same as his PK. Lets not even talk about him entering the zone or carrying the puck past 3 strides... last game did you see how the top of his body moved too far forward and he almost lost balance with the puck, he lost it of course, he wasn't touched either.

Even so, the little things still shifts momentum.. Even if you cause a turnover and dont have the skill to do anything with it, it stills messes up the transition of the other team, keeps the puck in the zone a few seconds more, frustrates them and whatever. When a teams smooth transition is stunted it should slow the momentum of their team. Thats why Brown still is a decent NHL player. Disappointing his goal scoring insticts seem to be a bit of a fluke last year but he still does enough to slow the other team down to be a solid 3rd line player. Nothing wrong with a few boring 3rd line players to disrupt the other teams breakout

 

[ottomaddox]

Why 22 games? Seems like an arbitrary number, perhaps we should see how many minutes he plays in those games etc.?

I see no need to "set aside" anything, why would we do that? Gather all the information, watch every game and as the sample size grows all evaluations become more meaningful. I for example watch every game and i don't need numbers to tell me that he's doing pretty good. The stats do seem to back that up though.

1 goal in 22 is just an example of a cold goal scoring / point streak. It's not a formula for good or bad.

 

[ottomaddox]

Why 22 games? Seems like an arbitrary number, perhaps we should see how many minutes he plays in those games etc.?

I see no need to "set aside" anything, why would we do that? Gather all the information, watch every game and as the sample size grows all evaluations become more meaningful. I for example watch every game and i don't need numbers to tell me that he's doing pretty good. The stats do seem to back that up though.

It just comes from the debate: good players get opportunities, they score, they play big in big games, etc. As a result they tend to score, get assists, points, etc. Most of the time they tend to have good analytics too.