Player Discussion: Josh Ho-Sang Pt II

[Richie Daggers Crime]

True, without a doubt that's always been his problem. But he did not go back to his default position 100% and it was not costing the Isles goals against and losses, from the games I watched. I do think he needs to be up with Trotz and around Lou, etc. on a daily basis to truly break away from his old habits completely. Even if it means sacrificing some playing time and watching some games from the press box with Lou. He won't get that back in BPT.

Fair enough. When you boil it down, it's a recognition of an issue when it comes to Ho Sang, just a difference on how you go about correcting it. One on hand, you can sort of shelter and mollycoddle. That's a legitimate method, but it's a resource drain on the coaches, etc. It's like bringing your kid to work... you always have to be on top of what he or she is doing so they don't get into trouble. On the other hand, you have the tough love approach, which I think is what Trotz is employing. Also a legitimate method, but also has downsides, like not being able to personally correct details, etc.

It's nuanced with many moving parts (like, how much trust does Trotz/Lou have in the BPT coaches, what the actual interaction between Ho Sang and the coaches is, etc.) I'm confidant that it's been thought out and measured by Trotz and co. He doesn't seem the type to make moves arbitrarily or rashly.

 

[scottywiper]

Oops

 

[Rehabguy]

Cheating out of the zone, overextending shifts, etc, are mental errors. They manifest themselves as on-ice errors, but they're not a result of inexperience with the NHL game. These aren't a result of needing to catch up to NHL speed, physicality or skill (like Dal Colle needs to do). They're mental/maturity issues. That's kind of my point re: minors vs. NHL. It's not like you look at him and say "He's doing all the right things, he just needs to adjust to the NHL game. He can work it out on the ice." It's more like, "This guy has NHL skill, but keeps getting lax, breaking structure, and is generally unaware of it."

Exactly. Playing in the AHL is like using training wheels on a bike. Ho Sang will continue to make the same mistakes because he can get away from them at the AHL level- like cheating out of the zone or overextending shifts. The only way he is going to learn is if you take the training wheels off and he fails a few times. He needs to prove himself at the NHL level, but with all the young talent like MDC now up with the club his window of opportunity is closing fast. This is how Barzal is learning his game but as many have said before his upside makes up for mental mistakes he's bound to make from time to time so it would be completely stupid to keep him out of the line up. Barry Trotz told Ho Sang he wants him to use his talents and shoot more, go to the dirty areas, and score goals. Right now, Ho Sang hasn't been doing this so the mental mistakes he is making are not being compensated by his offensive output. It's sink or swim time for Ho Sang, either he is able to play at the NHL level or he's not. There's nothing more that the AHL is going to teach him.

 

[periferal]

Exactly. Playing in the AHL is like using training wheels on a bike. Ho Sang will continue to make the same mistakes because he can get away from them at the AHL level- like cheating out of the zone or overextending shifts. The only way he is going to learn is if you take the training wheels off and he fails a few times. He needs to prove himself at the NHL level, but with all the young talent like MDC now up with the club his window of opportunity is closing fast. This is how Barzal is learning his game but as many have said before his upside makes up for mental mistakes he's bound to make from time to time so it would be completely stupid to keep him out of the line up. Barry Trotz told Ho Sang he wants him to use his talents and shoot more, go to the dirty areas, and score goals. Right now, Ho Sang hasn't been doing this so the mental his mistakes he does make or not compensated by offensive output. It's sink or swim time for Ho Sang, either he is able to play at the NHL level or he's not. There's nothing more that the AHL is going to teach him.

If Ho-Sang isn't learning in the AHL then either...

1. The coaching staff has to go.
2. Ho-Sang doesn't want to learn.

A joke to think any player who's 22, is far from perfect, and hasn't played a full season in the NHL can't learn any more in the minor leagues.

 

[ekill08x]

Ho Sangs biggest problem is Ho Sang. That is it.

 

[Rehabguy]

If Ho-Sang isn't learning in the AHL then either...

1. The coaching staff has to go.
2. Ho-Sang doesn't want to learn.

A joke to think any player who's 22, is far from perfect, and hasn't played a full season in the NHL can't learn any more in the minor leagues.

I'm not talking about any player, I'm talking about Ho Sang. The mistakes he's making are mental ones. It's a joke to think a player needs to be in the AHL to learn not to overextend his shifts or to over play the puck in the defensive zone. Like I said the AHL allows for this. This is how the kids play in the AHL. He's not going to learn from his mistakes if he doesn't get burnt from making these mistakes in the NHL much as a child won't learn to lean so much to one side if the training wheels are always on. Sometimes you need to fall. There's nothing the AHL can teach Ho Sang at this point, he may not be NHL material and it may not be due to physical abilities as much as mental or maturity issues.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I'm not talking about any player, I'm talking about Ho Sang. The mistakes he's making are mental ones. It's a joke to think a player needs to be in the AHL to learn not to overextend his shifts or to over play the puck in the defensive zone. Like I said the AHL allows for this. This is how the kids play in the AHL. He's not going to learn from his mistakes if he doesn't get burnt from making these mistakes in the NHL much as a child won't learn to lean so much to one side if the training wheels are always on. Sometimes you need to fall. There's nothing the AHL can teach Ho Sang at this point, he may not be NHL material and it may not be due to physical abilities as much as mental or maturity issues.

I strongly disagree with this post. Especially the bolded. You make it sound as if the AHL is where players go to learn bad habits. Obviously it is not. Plenty of players learn a ton down there. Even older, more experienced players than Ho-Sang. And that is precisely why he's there.

 

[periferal]

I'm not talking about any player, I'm talking about Ho Sang. The mistakes he's making are mental ones. It's a joke to think a player needs to be in the AHL to learn not to overextend his shifts or to over play the puck in the defensive zone. Like I said the AHL allows for this. This is how the kids play in the AHL. He's not going to learn from his mistakes if he doesn't get burnt from making these mistakes in the NHL much as a child won't learn to lean so much to one side if the training wheels are always on. Sometimes you need to fall. There's nothing the AHL can teach Ho Sang at this point, he may not be NHL material and it may not be due to physical abilities as much as mental or maturity issues.

Wow I could not disagree more. Here's a part I think you're missing - You don't reward a player for not earning a spot and/or playing a team game.

Look at quotes from Brent Thompson:


“He’s a baby,” Thompson said. “He’s a baby, he’s immature and he’s got a lot of growing to do.

“Inconsistency is probably one of the biggest negatives,” Thompson said. “There are times he can be the best player on the ice. There are times he can be the worst.”


Now if you think that Thompson is a bad coach and should be replaced then that's one thing. But if you think Thompson is being fair in his assessment of Ho-Sang, then you would be a fool to reward JHS by moving him up to the big club as it sends a bad message to the rest of the organization. All we've talked about in here for years is how this entire franchise needs a "culture change" - Especially when it comes to accountability. If you don't listen to your coaches and do the right things and the team rewards you for that it sends the worst kind of message.

Think about this...Sergei Bobrovsky the Blue Jackets had to suspend him for a game for an outburst that went against the team. This is an elite, veteran, all-star caliber player who's absence could absolutely affect them on ice, and yet the organization had to punish him for going against the team.

The #1 reason the Isles are having a successful season is because they've BOUGHT IN to Trotz's system and coaching. Now if Ho-Sang, or ANY player, is allowed to do what he wants on the ice and not adhere to that system and culture, that undermines everything we've said we wanted to change.

 

[Rehabguy]

I strongly disagree with this post. Especially the bolded. You make it sound as if the AHL is where players go to learn bad habits. Obviously it is not. Plenty of players learn a ton down there. Even older, more experienced players than Ho-Sang. And that is precisely why he's there.

Well, that's how you're interpreting it but that's not what I'm saying. How many games do you think it should take a player AHL or NHL to learn not to overextend their shifts, or not to retreat in the defensive zone when under pressure? The answer should be very few. If there is no real consequences to making these mistakes he's never going to learn. There are real consequences at the NHL level, because those kind of crappy decisions are not going to work at that level. In that sense, Trotz demotion of Ho Sang back to the AHL WAS a sound decision if he was not following instructions or buying into the coaches decision. Like I said there's nothing more the AHL can teach Ho Sang that he can't teach himself. The AHL itself is punishment for making bad decisions at this point for Ho Sang. In that sense, yeah it serves a purpose.

 

[Rehabguy]

Wow I could not disagree more. Here's a part I think you're missing - You don't reward a player for not earning a spot and/or playing a team game.

Look at quotes from Brent Thompson:


“He’s a baby,” Thompson said. “He’s a baby, he’s immature and he’s got a lot of growing to do.

“Inconsistency is probably one of the biggest negatives,” Thompson said. “There are times he can be the best player on the ice. There are times he can be the worst.”


Now if you think that Thompson is a bad coach and should be replaced then that's one thing. But if you think Thompson is being fair in his assessment of Ho-Sang, then you would be a fool to reward JHS by moving him up to the big club as it sends a bad message to the rest of the organization. All we've talked about in here for years is how this entire franchise needs a "culture change" - Especially when it comes to accountability. If you don't listen to your coaches and do the right things and the team rewards you for that it sends the worst kind of message.

Think about this...Sergei Bobrovsky the Blue Jackets had to suspend him for a game for an outburst that went against the team. This is an elite, veteran, all-star caliber player who's absence could absolutely affect them on ice, and yet the organization had to punish him for going against the team.

The #1 reason the Isles are having a successful season is because they've BOUGHT IN to Trotz's system and coaching. Now if Ho-Sang, or ANY player, is allowed to do what he wants on the ice and not adhere to that system and culture, that undermines everything we've said we wanted to change.

I'm not missing that. That's exactly what I'm saying in the post above. It's sink or swim time for Ho Sang. I don't think there is more the AHL can teach Ho Sang other than that you are going to remain there until you start making sound decisions. Skill wise he's ready. Maturity, mental approach to his game that's what has to change. It's up to him now. If the mistakes Ho Sang is making have not improved by now and you believe that it is something teachable, then yes, you should start looking at Thompson and what he is up to. But I don't think these issues Ho Sang is having has to do with being taught wrong as it has to do with Ho Sang making bad decisions.

I think the thing that some of you are missing as that you seem to imply that players need to enter the NHL completely ready to play. That's just doesn't happen. There is a learning curve there as well as they make that transition. My point has always been why waste the fantastic learning opportunity many of these young players have to learn under a master like Trotz. The results so far with all our young players is self evident and irrefutable. Are there things to learn in the AHL? Of course there are, but there comes a point of diminishing returns. For many, it becomes the final proving ground.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I'm not missing that. That's exactly what I'm saying in the post above. It's sink or swim time for Ho Sang. I don't think there is more the AHL can teach Ho Sang other than that you are going to remain there until you start making sound decisions. Skill wise he's ready. Maturity, mental approach to his game that's what has to change. It's up to him now. If the mistakes Ho Sang is making have not improved by now and you believe that it is something teachable, then yes, you should start looking at Thompson and what he is up to. But I don't think these issues Ho Sang is having has to do with being taught wrong as it has to do with Ho Sang making bad decisions.

I think the thing that some of you are missing as that you seem to imply that players need to enter the NHL completely ready to play. That's just doesn't happen. There is a learning curve there as well as they make that transition. My point has always been why waste the fantastic learning opportunity many of these young players have to learn under a master like Trotz. The results so far with all our young players is self evident and irrefutable. Are there things to learn in the AHL? Of course there are, but there comes a point of diminishing returns. For many, it becomes the final proving ground.

The NHL is not a developmental league. It's not realistic to think that a kid is 100% ready for the NHL but certain basic fundamentals have to be there. The Islanders don't believe Ho-Sang has them yet.

 

[Rehabguy]

The NHL is not a developmental league. It's not realistic to think that a kid is 100% ready for the NHL but certain basic fundamentals have to be there. The Islanders don't believe Ho-Sang has them yet.

The fundamental thing being not listening to your coach.

Notice the "mental" in fundamental. It may be that there are better players making an argument over Ho Sang at this point in the game. Like I said his window of opportunity is closing.

If you believe players like Barzal, Beau, Pullock, Pelech have nothing left to develop at the NHL level, then there's not much of conversation to be had. It might not be a developmental league, but players still need to develop.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

The fundamental thing being not listening to your coach.

Notice the "mental" in fundamental. It may be that there are better players making an argument over Ho Sang at this point in the game. Like I said his window of opportunity is closing.

If you believe players like Barzal, Beau, Pullock, Pelech have nothing left to develop at the NHL level, then there's not much of conversation to be had. It might not be a developmental league, but players still need to develop.

I agree. That is why I said its not realistic to think that a kid is 100% ready.

 

[Isles Fan]

If Ho-Sang isn't learning in the AHL then either...

1. The coaching staff has to go.
2. Ho-Sang doesn't want to learn.

A joke to think any player who's 22, is far from perfect, and hasn't played a full season in the NHL can't learn any more in the minor leagues.

Or he just sucks...……..

 

[Quickdraw2828]

Or he just sucks...……..

or a low IQ.

 

[Rehabguy]

I wouldn't read too much into these rumors though. I think give the kid one final chance in the NHL especially starts going in a tail spin. Too soon to be over confident with the team's recent success. For now I think Trotz is seeing how MDC continues to develop his game at the NHL level. If he proves to be a contributor the argument to bring up JHS over him will be pretty weak.

 

[Uncle Duke]

So glad the JHS talk is basically confined to this thread now. The team is moving forward without him. And that's not a knock on him, it's a knock on the JHS-obssessed fans here who spend all of their waking hours trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He may have a career somewhere in the NHL - Ottawa seems like a good fit - but it won't be on a BT coached team.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

[QUOTE="Capt Obvious, post: 155274653, member: 303265" He may have a career somewhere in the NHL - Ottawa seems like a good fit - but it won't be on a BT coached team.[/QUOTE]
Source of this nugget of future knowledge?

 

[Uncle Duke]

[QUOTE="Capt Obvious, post: 155274653, member: 303265" He may have a career somewhere in the NHL - Ottawa seems like a good fit - but it won't be on a BT coached team.

Source of this nugget of future knowledge?[/QUOTE]
There is no source, it just seems like a good fit to me. They suck, they gave away their (very high) first round draft pick, they have building and revenue problems and need to put fannies in the seats. Bring in a slick skating, whirling dervish with a cool name and at least according to some, a lot of upside, and let him loose. Probably won't win many but might be fun to watch.

 

[periferal]

I think the thing that some of you are missing as that you seem to imply that players need to enter the NHL completely ready to play. That's just doesn't happen. There is a learning curve there as well as they make that transition. My point has always been why waste the fantastic learning opportunity many of these young players have to learn under a master like Trotz. The results so far with all our young players is self evident and irrefutable. Are there things to learn in the AHL? Of course there are, but there comes a point of diminishing returns. For many, it becomes the final proving ground.

Again...Not what I'm saying. Needing to fully acclimate to the NHL is completely different than not being willing to do the little things to make yourself the best player and teammate possible.

And if you're not willing to do those things...Then you should not have an NHL roster spot over someone else who does.

And once again again...Not sure how to disagree with you more that a 22-year old player cannot learn more in the AHL. That's truly insanity. If he can't learn any more than the coach needs to be fired or the player doesn't want to learn.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

How many games do you think it should take a player AHL or NHL to learn not to overextend their shifts, or not to retreat in the defensive zone when under pressure? The answer should be very few. If there is no real consequences to making these mistakes he's never going to learn.

He's in the AHL not to learn those on ice things, because he already knows how to do it. He's in the AHL to learn humility and dutifulness. He doesn't need training, he needs a shift in his outlook. Those aren't just mental errors, they're manifestations of his overall problematic lack of maturity and discipline.

The consequences you speak of is playing in the NHL vs the AHL.

 

[CREW99AW]

Wow I could not disagree more. Here's a part I think you're missing - You don't reward a player for not earning a spot and/or playing a team game.

Look at quotes from Brent Thompson:


“He’s a baby,” Thompson said. “He’s a baby, he’s immature and he’s got a lot of growing to do.

“Inconsistency is probably one of the biggest negatives,” Thompson said. “There are times he can be the best player on the ice. There are times he can be the worst.”


Now if you think that Thompson is a bad coach and should be replaced then that's one thing. But if you think Thompson is being fair in his assessment of Ho-Sang, then you would be a fool to reward JHS by moving him up to the big club as it sends a bad message to the rest of the organization. All we've talked about in here for years is how this entire franchise needs a "culture change" - Especially when it comes to accountability. If you don't listen to your coaches and do the right things and the team rewards you for that it sends the worst kind of message.

Think about this...Sergei Bobrovsky the Blue Jackets had to suspend him for a game for an outburst that went against the team. This is an elite, veteran, all-star caliber player who's absence could absolutely affect them on ice, and yet the organization had to punish him for going against the team.

The #1 reason the Isles are having a successful season is because they've BOUGHT IN to Trotz's system and coaching. Now if Ho-Sang, or ANY player, is allowed to do what he wants on the ice and not adhere to that system and culture, that undermines everything we've said we wanted to change.

Please post a link to that entire Thompson quote , where he calls JHS a baby because you left of the comment right after the baby comment where it is clear that baby meant very young.

 

[periferal]

Please post a link to that entire Thompson quote , where he calls JHS a baby because you left of the comment right after the baby comment where it is clear that baby meant very young.

Yes - That's literally what I mean. Not trying to spin anything at all. The point is we have a poster here who thinks that "very young baby" cannot learn anything else in the AHL, which is truly insane taking everything into account.

 

[DalGoal4Cups]

Bottom line is ho sang isn't playing a team first game when he takes 2 minute shifts and low % play turnovers. There is no need for a guy like that on the current roster. Especially with only 2 points in 10 games. Until he learns his roll, he will be in the AHL.

 

[SI]

Bottom line is ho sang isn't playing a team first game when he takes 2 minute shifts and low % play turnovers. There is no need for a guy like that on the current roster. Especially with only 2 points in 10 games. Until he learns his roll, he will be in the AHL.

Those are not the issues this season - it's not extended shifts or overhandling the puck.
It's his play away from the puck - he needs better focus and commitment to the system.

Let's move on