Player Discussion: Josh Ho-Sang Pt II

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periferal

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The question is around whether or not the IB rumor has merit and is the reason for his demotion. It very well may not be attitude and entirely related to performance, in which case it's #1 and I don't see a problem with that, in terms of hanging on and continuing to develop him.

From my own viewings of his on-ice performance, I think he is ready now, but more time won't hurt. If IB turns out to be correct, obviously it's time to go. The third option is not even realistic enough to consider.


Curious...

What do you think about Ho-Sang's mental game? Is he doing everything possible to become the "best player" from his draft class as he claimed he would be? Does he have good hockey sense? Is he a good teammate? Is he listening to coaches?
 

Doshell Propivo

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Curious...

What do you think about Ho-Sang's mental game? Is he doing everything possible to become the "best player" from his draft class as he claimed he would be? Does he have good hockey sense? Is he a good teammate? Is he listening to coaches?
How the f*** do you know any of these things? He was a talented but risky pick. He came with baggage and he's obviously had his issues. You don't know any more about his "mental" state than any other fan. Give it a rest.
 

Uncle Duke

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unreal if we are going to give up on him or dump him for next to nothing, still a skilled hockey player who has an upside and as I think as is is a consistent 40-50 point a year winger, just un-****ing real, this team is going to regret the way they handled him
Extremely doubtful that this current mgmt team will regret the way they are handling or have handled him. Far more likely that JHS will regret how he handled himself.

(And no, that is in no way a reference to unsubstantiated rumors floating around - I would have had the same take last week).
 

Uncle Duke

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I was be facetious. And half joking that Lou is a dinosaur who still thinks it is 1997.
Gotcha. I kind of thought so but couldn't find anything in the thread that led to the comment so wasn't 100% sure where you were going.........

Btw, I'm not sure that is true about LL at this stage of the game. Certainly the reports you hear from the likes of Staple, Gross etc. suggest that it is not. Yes, he brought in LK and VF but those were band-aids in a tough situation, and frankly, they are band-aids that have worked really well. Now that the structure and the culture are being cemented, what Lou's next moves are will start to tell us if he has left 1997 behind.
 
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SI

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The question is around whether or not the IB rumor has merit and is the reason for his demotion. It very well may not be attitude and entirely related to performance, in which case it's #1 and I don't see a problem with that, in terms of hanging on and continuing to develop him.

From my own viewings of his on-ice performance, I think he is ready now, but more time won't hurt. If IB turns out to be correct, obviously it's time to go. The third option is not even realistic enough to consider.

Konk,

What I noticed in his play was some old habits coming back -the floating, the coasting, the looping , the casual play away from the puck -

He has improved with making smarter plays, lessened the turnovers, and keeping the shifts from lingering too long, but these other habits began to creep back in -

he needs to be more aggressive with his play away from the puck. With his speed and skill I would love to see him hound the puck a bit more.

I hope the rumors are not true, but to be fair to the situation this maybe JHS 4th or 5th chance with organization, but this is only half a season with Trotz.
 

Isles Fan

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Sep 12, 2006
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Marginal player at best? Are you entirely sure about that? Don't you think that's a bit strong? He's 22 years old. Most player hit their prime in ages 26-30. Barry Trotz seems to think he can be more than a "marginal NHL player at best"

"“Since he’s come up he’s really playing the right way and you can see he’s got real good hockey sense and he’s got the speed and the skill,” Trotz said. “But if he’s playing the way he is — [it’s] going to be hard to send him anywhere if he continues to do that.
“I gotta give him credit, I thought he was one of our better players today.”"

Yea, maybe he still has a lot of work to do and needs to be more consistent and attended to detail, but capping his upside already is pretty crazy IMO. He's 22 years old folks. Prospect development isn't always linear and setbacks happen.

NYI have put all the work in on this kid and we've (including Trotz) have seen what he can bring to the team when he's playing right. Why give him away for peanuts so some other team can enjoy his best years after we did all the work developing him? You really want to get rid of him for a "bag of pucks?" All due respect, but I hope Lou doesn't agree with you.

So you take a random quote from ONE game and that mean the coach is all in? Really? And based on the fact the Barry Trotz was the one who sent him down...……..

What exactly does he bring to the team when he's playing right? I'd like to know because all I've ever seen of him is a goal hanging one way minded player. Even Mike Bossy played some defense.

Like I said go to the games watch his entire game not just snippets on TV or youtube.
 

Uncle Duke

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Marginal player at best? Are you entirely sure about that? Don't you think that's a bit strong? He's 22 years old. Most player hit their prime in ages 26-30. Barry Trotz seems to think he can be more than a "marginal NHL player at best"

"“Since he’s come up he’s really playing the right way and you can see he’s got real good hockey sense and he’s got the speed and the skill,” Trotz said. “But if he’s playing the way he is — [it’s] going to be hard to send him anywhere if he continues to do that.
“I gotta give him credit, I thought he was one of our better players today.”"

Yea, maybe he still has a lot of work to do and needs to be more consistent and attended to detail, but capping his upside already is pretty crazy IMO. He's 22 years old folks. Prospect development isn't always linear and setbacks happen.

NYI have put all the work in on this kid and we've (including Trotz) have seen what he can bring to the team when he's playing right. Why give him away for peanuts so some other team can enjoy his best years after we did all the work developing him? You really want to get rid of him for a "bag of pucks?" All due respect, but I hope Lou doesn't agree with you.
Ok, so here is my question, since you don't want to see JHS go for "a bag of pucks": As he is about to become an RFA, what is the contract (dollars and term) you would be willing to offer him after this season?
 

SI

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Ok, so here is my question, since you don't want to see JHS go for "a bag of pucks": As he is about to become an RFA, what is the contract (dollars and term) you would be willing to offer him after this season?

The Minimum whatever that is - 8k one way deal for 1 year?
 

Konk

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Mar 11, 2008
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Curious...

What do you think about Ho-Sang's mental game? Is he doing everything possible to become the "best player" from his draft class as he claimed he would be? Does he have good hockey sense? Is he a good teammate? Is he listening to coaches?

From the outside looking in, some of those questions can't even be answered at this point. But as someone that has followed JHS since he was about 14-15 years old, I would say it appears he has recently started to work on being the best player he can be and is listening, because he is playing the type of game within the system that he has never really played before.
 
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Konk

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Konk,

What I noticed in his play was some old habits coming back -the floating, the coasting, the looping , the casual play away from the puck -

He has improved with making smarter plays, lessened the turnovers, and keeping the shifts from lingering too long, but these other habits began to creep back in -

he needs to be more aggressive with his play away from the puck. With his speed and skill I would love to see him hound the puck a bit more.

I hope the rumors are not true, but to be fair to the situation this maybe JHS 4th or 5th chance with organization, but this is only half a season with Trotz.
True, but the answer to fix these habits isn't always "go back to the minors, kid" some times it's about corrections at the NHL level. All young players are susceptible to falling back into old habits and it's up to coaches to fix them as they do. I think he was just sent back because he was eligible and we ran out of roster spots as players came off of IR. It's clear he made that third line better and added another dimension to the team that is lacking since he left.
 

doublechili

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Apr 11, 2006
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If JHS slips back into bad habits when he's NOT producing, what would happen in the future if he was producing? I think that's why Trotz/Lou are trying to burn in the message now. To make playing the right way a habit and not a requirement to get past.
 

Islanders4Cups

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True, but the answer to fix these habits isn't always "go back to the minors, kid" some times it's about corrections at the NHL level. All young players are susceptible to falling back into old habits and it's up to coaches to fix them as they do. I think he was just sent back because he was eligible and we ran out of roster spots as players came off of IR. It's clear he made that third line better and added another dimension to the team that is lacking since he left.

I don’t necessarily agree. “Sometimes it is correction at the NHL level” works if you are out of contention. Right now every game means something until playoff positions are settled. What do the Islander gain and lose with a kid who needs time to shake out his game? Over the years, this was fine, but right now they are contention to catch the Division Leaders
 
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seafoam

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I don’t necessarily agree. “Sometimes it is correction at the NHL level” works if you are out of contention. Right now every game means something until playoff positions are settled. What do the Islander gain and lose with a kid who needs time to shake out his game? Over the years, this was fine, but right now they are contention to catch the Division Leaders

Well it would appear that they are allowing Dal Colle to develop in the NHL despite even less NHL production than Ho-Sang in more games played.

Keep in mind, the reports out of Bridgeport were that Dal Colle was the more complete player down there while Ho-Sang is still just excelling in the things that he’s always excelled at (skating, carrying and distributing the puck) but hasn’t built up other areas of his game yet.

Dal Colle’s offense may not be there yet at the NHL level, but compared to Ho-Sang, he wins more board battles, has a more active stick, and makes safer plays with the puck. I think that’s why Ho-Sang was sent down over Dal Colle.

Trotz demands that you play “the right way” before you can worry about scoring goals. That’s probably the biggest difference between him and Weight (not that I want to compare the two on any level).
 

Islanders4Cups

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Well it would appear that they are allowing Dal Colle to develop in the NHL despite even less NHL production than Ho-Sang in more games played.

Keep in mind, the reports out of Bridgeport were that Dal Colle was the more complete player down there while Ho-Sang is still just excelling in the things that he’s always excelled at (skating, carrying and distributing the puck) but hasn’t built up other areas of his game yet.

Dal Colle’s offense may not be there yet at the NHL level, but compared to Ho-Sang, he wins more board battles, has a more active stick, and makes safer plays with the puck. I think that’s why Ho-Sang was sent down over Dal Colle.

Trotz demands that you play “the right way” before you can worry about scoring goals. That’s probably the biggest difference between him and Weight (not that I want to compare the two on any level).

I agree.
LL (and maybe Trotz) decides who would I rather have playing

JHS or Filppula? Filps
JHS or MDC ? MDC
JHS or Eberle? Eberle
Etc. etc.

I would side with the those in charge in making those decisions.
 

Konk

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I don’t necessarily agree. “Sometimes it is correction at the NHL level” works if you are out of contention. Right now every game means something until playoff positions are settled. What do the Islander gain and lose with a kid who needs time to shake out his game? Over the years, this was fine, but right now they are contention to catch the Division Leaders
It has to happen at some point. It's happening right now with MDC as seafoam pointed out and it's happened/is happening with Barzal, Beauvillier, Pelech, Pulock, etc. etc. Barzal is obviously producing beyond his faults, which are becoming less and less. Same with Pulock, etc. and they've made a lot of progress since first being introduced to the NHL game. But they are all learning on the job rather than in the minors.

At a certain point, like with Beauvillier this season, sending the player back doesn't benefit them as much as keeping them up. Both for the player and the team. JHS was contributing in a positively meaningful way by being that skilled element that can skate the puck out of danger in the bottom six. Both Filppula and Komarov still can become pinned in their own zone because they lack that dimension and that's where JHS was a net positive influence, for that line and overall for the team.

I am not arguing that he should not have been sent down, as the more I look at the situation the more I believe it was strictly due to roster spots / players coming off of IR than anything else and he was the best candidate to send back. There's not much you can do about that... it is what it is.
 
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Islanders4Cups

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It has to happen at some point. It's happening right now with MDC as seafoam pointed out and it's happened/is happening with Barzal, Beauvillier, Pelech, Pulock, etc. etc. Barzal is obviously producing beyond his faults, which are becoming less and less. Same with Pulock, etc. and they've made a lot of progress since first being introduced to the NHL game. But they are all learning on the job rather than in the minors.

At a certain point, like with Beauvillier this season, sending the player back doesn't benefit them as much as keeping them up. Both for the player and the team. JHS was contributing in a positively meaningful way by being that skilled element that can skate the puck out of danger in the bottom six. Both Filppula and Komarov still can become pinned in their own zone because they lack that dimension and that's where JHS was a net positive influence, for that line and overall for the team.

I am not arguing that he should not have been sent down, as the more I look at the situation the more I believe it was strictly due to roster spots / players coming off of IR than anything else and he was the best candidate to send back. There's not much you can do about that... it is what it is.

I agree in general but will add, keeping JHS up on the big team and not playing would be worse than having him playing a lot of minutes in the AHL. He will be back up if he continues to play well and something happens to a top line forward like Eberle.
 
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Richie Daggers Crime

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the more I look at the situation the more I believe it was strictly due to roster spots / players coming off of IR than anything else and he was the best candidate to send back.

If he was still playing like he did in the Toronto game, he'd still be up. Anyone paying attention could see he was cheating, overextending and letting other bad habits creep back into his game. His issues are mental/maturity based, not on the ice based. He can work on that in the minors.
 
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GrandmaSlices51631

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If he was still playing like he did in the Toronto game, he'd still be up. Anyone paying attention could see he was cheating, overextending and letting other bad habits creep back into his game. His issues are mental/maturity based, not on the ice based. He can work on that in the minors.

The two really go hand-in-hand. Everything you mentioned falls under on-ice performance. I don't think there is a soul on earth who would say his technical skill-set is not NHL ready, that's why this is super frustrating - his speed, creativity and passing is perfect for todays game.

I am not in recovery but have a friend who is and they use this phrase in 12-step programs...

“take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.”
Seems JHS has not figured this much out yet, Trotz is running a system every other player has bought into. Mayfield , who looked like a journeymen now looks like a top-4. Cizikas is having a career year, Boychuk bouncing back, Beau finding his swagger, Nelson beasting (still can't believe I'm saying this). If he could put the poor me card away and simply follow Trotz instructions - he'd be on the team.
 

Richie Daggers Crime

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Everything you mentioned falls under on-ice performance.

Cheating out of the zone, overextending shifts, etc, are mental errors. They manifest themselves as on-ice errors, but they're not a result of inexperience with the NHL game. These aren't a result of needing to catch up to NHL speed, physicality or skill (like Dal Colle needs to do). They're mental/maturity issues. That's kind of my point re: minors vs. NHL. It's not like you look at him and say "He's doing all the right things, he just needs to adjust to the NHL game. He can work it out on the ice." It's more like, "This guy has NHL skill, but keeps getting lax, breaking structure, and is generally unaware of it."
 

Konk

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If he was still playing like he did in the Toronto game, he'd still be up. Anyone paying attention could see he was cheating, overextending and letting other bad habits creep back into his game. His issues are mental/maturity based, not on the ice based. He can work on that in the minors.

As was Barzal, Beauvillier, etc. earlier in the year to those that were paying attention... It happens with all young players.

That said, which apparrently has to be said again, it's no coincidence he was sent down when Filppula was activated, not just when the bad habits crept back in. If there were enough roster spots, JHS would probably still be with the team.
 

Richie Daggers Crime

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As was Barzal, Beauvillier, etc. earlier in the year to those that were paying attention... It happens with all young players.

Absolutely. But, context matters. Those players have their default positions and have lapses within them. You're right. This is to be expected. But, Ho Sang seems to be the opposite. Ho Sang's default position seems to be problematic and requires a high amount of focus from him and the coaches to stay out of that default position.
 

Konk

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Absolutely. But, context matters. Those players have their default positions and have lapses within them. You're right. This is to be expected. But, Ho Sang seems to be the opposite. Ho Sang's default position seems to be problematic and requires a high amount of focus from him and the coaches to stay out of that default position.

True, without a doubt that's always been his problem. But he did not go back to his default position 100% and it was not costing the Isles goals against and losses, from the games I watched. I do think he needs to be up with Trotz and around Lou, etc. on a daily basis to truly break away from his old habits completely. Even if it means sacrificing some playing time and watching some games from the press box with Lou. He won't get that back in BPT.
 
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