Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin: To C Or Not to C

[Andrei79]

lol... you didnt watch Serge play, it's obvious. While Mete is a slightly better skater, Serge moves the puck just fine. He's a slightly better passer than Mete, but has far superior offensive IQ. Saying "every player has their strenght" is just you using a generalization to put them on even footing, which is just wrong. If you watched him instead of just checking the stats collumn, you would have realized that he clearly has all the tools and offensive upside to be a top pairing D. Mete, whom I like very much, has some really great qualities, but also some huge shortcomings that makes one wonder if he'll ever be able to be a top pairing D. Few have those doubts about Serge.



Stop using that excuse. Serge (o,50) had FOUR times the PPG ratio Mete had (0,14). That's not just because of their different teamates, especially since Serge finished SECOND among Tampa's Ds.

SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN. SECOND AMONG TAMPA DMEN.


Maybe if I repeat it often enough you'll get it. He finished ahead of Girardi by a whopping 22 points, ahead of Stralman, Coburn and any other D not named Hedman on the team. If it were so easy to get points on the TB squad, howcome Kunitz finished with 11 points less than Serge. Even Ryan McDonagh, who is usually a 0,50 ppg player, was unable to muster more than 3 points in 14 games, which is not even 0,25 ppg.

If your pet theory was right McD, even on the second PP line should've been able to rack up points, no? But McD's stint had him finish with not even half of Serge's ppg ratio.

What this shows is that Serge has really good offensive upside, and you'd see that if you actually watched him play. And don't give a lie about seeing play. The fact you equate him to Mete makes it clear as day that you didn't watch Serge.

And then you compare to Mete, who wasn't able to outscore a ragtag group of dmen. He finished 7th among dmen and 21st on the team. Mike Rielly was able to get a point more than Mete in 30 games less. If it was so bad in Montreal and Mete was as good as Serge, Mete would've been able to do better than at least half of the Ds on the team. You can see this, not by looking at his points, but where he finished. Despite playing 50 games, he finished 7th among Ds and 21st on the team





Yes, it's about needing a LHPMD more than we needed a winger. Funny how someone who supports a dumbass move by our dumbass GM has the same blindspot when it comes to the importance of filling that LHPMD spot.




Drouin isn't better at his position than Serge. Serge had 13 points less, as a rookie, than Drouin's best season with the same offensive powerhouse. Even worst for Drouin, two ROOKIES had better seasons than Drouin had on the same team, and not as a rookie for the latter (Gourde and Point both had more than 10 points than Drouin's best season).

Serge will be a top pairing D. Not sure Drouin will even be a top line winger. We've had two top line wingers on our team the season before, two wingers who are undeniably better than Drouin, and some people actually doubt they are top line wingers, so imagine where that puts Drouin compared to them. Drouin, for now, is NOT top line material.


You said we lack vision which is pretty ironic since it's clear as day you didn't watch Serge.

I agree with most of this. I brought up many of these points to show why I thought Sergachev had the trajectory you want to see for a future top pairing D.

Like you, I also think his offensive skill is that much greater than Mete. Where I'd add nuance is whether his stats were inflated or not. That's where, despite his fellow D's not doing very well, I tend to think they were. Tampa was on a tear the first 30 or so games and, during that time, he had a 60 point pace. Of those points, 50% were assisted/scored by either Stamkos or Kucherov. During the rest of the year, that number came down to 1 out 17 points in 47 games (6%). Mete had 55% O zone starts to Sergachev's 70%, both with similar ice time -> Mete with slightly more ES time, Sergachev slightly more PP time.

If we look strickly at team stats, Tampa Bay scored 83 more goals than Montreal, but what's interesting is both had similar pp% (23.9% vs 21.2%) and Mete scored more than half his points on the PP (Mete 57% Sergachev 40%). In terms of absolute goals (which is really what influences total points and not PP percentages) it was 66 TB to 52 MTL (27% more). In terms of ES situations where both could realistically be used (5 on 5, 4 on 4, 3 on 3, 6 on 5/4), Tampa scored 207 to Montreals pathetic 142 (2.52 vs 1.73 gpg).

So, it's not so surprising considering usage and circumstances how lopsided the point totals were. That doesn't mean Mete would have scored 40 in Tampa. He wouldn't have. But, I think he could've been Tampa's second highest scoring D too, just not at the level of separation Sergachev was. Because, as you said, he's just not as good offensively.

Anyways, carry on. I just wanted to add this since I thought it was interesting.

 

[montreal]

There's no way we won the trade, Sergachev at 19 had 7 less points then our 1st line center. That's f***ing embarrassing. The kid has his issues but he's still highly skilled and has the physical tools like a guy like Mete lacks outside of skating/speed.

Sergachev has the size, strength, great shot going for him while being able to move the puck. He just needs to get better in his own end. He put up 5 less points then Mete in their OHL careers but in 55 less games. He was near a ppg during his OHL career with 100 pts in 117 games, that's sick. To me you just don't trade talent like that but then again this is the same guy that traded Subban.

It's easy to hate Drouin given that Bergevin has worshipped him, it's a "teacher's pet" effect.

However, we should not. Drouin is on the Habs now and he did not choose his privileged status. He has enough talent to be a top-50 forward at the NHL level if everything goes right, so that's what we should hope for.

I don't hate him because of MB, at the time I thought the trade made sense cause I thought we were going to be much better then we were as I would never had thought Price would have a gaa over 3 and Pac would score just 17 goals. I thought Drouin would be a 60-70 pt player for us (on the wing)

But it was his play that was so disappointing, he was shit. So bad defensively, soft, lazy. To me it looked like he didn't give much of a shit and didn't want to get his nose dirty.

Plus I hated the contract he got, was very against that one, too much too soon. That said if he plays hard and produces I'll change my view on him.

 

[Andrei79]

There's no way we won the trade, Sergachev at 19 had 7 less points then our 1st line center. That's ****ing embarrassing. The kid has his issues but he's still highly skilled and has the physical tools like a guy like Mete lacks outside of skating/speed.

Sergachev has the size, strength, great shot going for him while being able to move the puck. He just needs to get better in his own end. He put up 5 less points then Mete in their OHL careers but in 55 less games. He was near a ppg during his OHL career with 100 pts in 117 games, that's sick. To me you just don't trade talent like that but then again this is the same guy that traded Subban.

And just to add a little bit more nuance, here though in Sergachev's favor, London was a powerhouse in their draft years. They had 3 100 point scorers and Mete had support from the likes of Juolevi on the backend. Even in their D+1, Londons fourth scorer (62 points) would've been Windsor's best. London had Bouchard, Juolevi and Mete on the back too. Likely Sergachev would have scored more if situations were reversed.

Anyways, I'd bet good money Bergevin doesn't look at numbers.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Do you even re read what you write before posting? How can anyone, who actually knows hockey, take you seriously when you contridict yourself?

I say: Sergachev wishes he could skate and move the puck like Mete.
You say: Mete is a better skater, and Serge moves the puck just fine.

Yes, that is exactly what i said about his skating. And "moves the puck just fine" doesnt mean he is at par, it means he doesnt suck at it, which i never said.

Playing on the better team has everything to do with it? Are you serious right now? Playing on the best offence in the league compared to the 3rd worst has nothing to do with Serge having more points? Yaaaaa ok. So laughable it hurts. Forget knowing hockey, that is just basic common sense. You play, work, surrounded by better people, you become better at what you re doing,along with the overall result.

Drouin isnt better at his poisiton? You re comparing a dman vs a forward, which is apples and oranges. Even then, you say, he scored 13 pts less, but somehow, in your own world. That equates to better. 13 points less = more in your mind. Ok lol

Serg scored the majority of his points pre all star game and wasnt nearly as much of a factor closing the season out. Im sure you knew that thought before throwing out your McD numbers though.

Truth is... Drouin is a top talent. Sergachev is a good dman, but he is currently NOT anywhere near a norris nomination. He isnt even a #1 dman at the moment.

Fun fact: I own a home in Florida. Ive been to more Lightning games, than you've watched on TV in your life. Ive also watched more of Sergachev in person, than youve watched videos of him on YouTube.

I'd suggest directing your "if you've actually watched" narrative in the mirror. Because judging by some of the statements you've made, you not only havent watch Sergachev, or the Lighting, i doubt you've watched the Habs either.

Yaddi yaddi yadda

I said you'd BS about watching him. Just the fact you even compare him to Mete tells me you either haven't watched Serge, or you don't have the analytics to even understand what you are watching

And before you make any comment about youtube, I have center ice and have watched more TB games than I watched Habs games last season.

Keep yappin, pretty sure you'll change your username by the time it's gonna be more than evident Serge is better.

I barely scrolled your text because you're a complete waste of time. It's like talking to a kid about hockey.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

There's no way we won the trade, Sergachev at 19 had 7 less points then our 1st line center. That's ****ing embarrassing. The kid has his issues but he's still highly skilled and has the physical tools like a guy like Mete lacks outside of skating/speed.

Sergachev has the size, strength, great shot going for him while being able to move the puck. He just needs to get better in his own end. He put up 5 less points then Mete in their OHL careers but in 55 less games. He was near a ppg during his OHL career with 100 pts in 117 games, that's sick. To me you just don't trade talent like that but then again this is the same guy that traded Subban.



I don't hate him because of MB, at the time I thought the trade made sense cause I thought we were going to be much better then we were as I would never had thought Price would have a gaa over 3 and Pac would score just 17 goals. I thought Drouin would be a 60-70 pt player for us (on the wing)

But it was his play that was so disappointing, he was ****. So bad defensively, soft, lazy. To me it looked like he didn't give much of a **** and didn't want to get his nose dirty.

Plus I hated the contract he got, was very against that one, too much too soon. That said if he plays hard and produces I'll change my view on him.

You lack vision

You build a championship team by focusing on getting wingers first.

 

[montreal]

You lack vision

You build a championship team by focusing on getting wingers first.

I do need new glasses. Just don't get how at this point we didn't get our ass handed to us in that trade and that's with us not having to pay that 2nd rounder, yikes would that have stung since that ended up being Ylonen. f*** that would have been terrible. A soft lazy creampuff for a 19 year old that put up 40 pts (only 4 Habs had more pts) and a high 2nd round pick on top of giving him a bad contract.

Now if Drouin comes in and works harder, puts up 60+ points, it will at least make the trade more level then it's been so far. Just that we so badly could use Sergachev in our pool but we'll see how both end up.

 

[cphabs]

You lack vision

You build a championship team by focusing on getting wingers first.

And then play them as centers!

 

[cphabs]

I agree with most of this. I brought up many of these points to show why I thought Sergachev had the trajectory you want to see for a future top pairing D.

Like you, I also think his offensive skill is that much greater than Mete. Where I'd add nuance is whether his stats were inflated or not. That's where, despite his fellow D's not doing very well, I tend to think they were. Tampa was on a tear the first 30 or so games and, during that time, he had a 60 point pace. Of those points, 50% were assisted/scored by either Stamkos or Kucherov. During the rest of the year, that number came down to 1 out 17 points in 47 games (6%). Mete had 55% O zone starts to Sergachev's 70%, both with similar ice time -> Mete with slightly more ES time, Sergachev slightly more PP time.

If we look strickly at team stats, Tampa Bay scored 83 more goals than Montreal, but what's interesting is both had similar pp% (23.9% vs 21.2%) and Mete scored more than half his points on the PP (Mete 57% Sergachev 40%). In terms of absolute goals (which is really what influences total points and not PP percentages) it was 66 TB to 52 MTL (27% more). In terms of ES situations where both could realistically be used (5 on 5, 4 on 4, 3 on 3, 6 on 5/4), Tampa scored 207 to Montreals pathetic 142 (2.52 vs 1.73 gpg).

So, it's not so surprising considering usage and circumstances how lopsided the point totals were. That doesn't mean Mete would have scored 40 in Tampa. He wouldn't have. But, I think he could've been Tampa's second highest scoring D too, just not at the level of separation Sergachev was. Because, as you said, he's just not as good offensively.

Anyways, carry on. I just wanted to add this since I thought it was interesting.

Don’t forget about those GWGs...

 

[BLONG7]

Leave him on the wing!! I think he will create alot more offense!

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I agree with most of this. I brought up many of these points to show why I thought Sergachev had the trajectory you want to see for a future top pairing D.

Like you, I also think his offensive skill is that much greater than Mete. Where I'd add nuance is whether his stats were inflated or not. That's where, despite his fellow D's not doing very well, I tend to think they were. Tampa was on a tear the first 30 or so games and, during that time, he had a 60 point pace. Of those points, 50% were assisted/scored by either Stamkos or Kucherov. During the rest of the year, that number came down to 1 out 17 points in 47 games (6%). Mete had 55% O zone starts to Sergachev's 70%, both with similar ice time -> Mete with slightly more ES time, Sergachev slightly more PP time.

If we look strickly at team stats, Tampa Bay scored 83 more goals than Montreal, but what's interesting is both had similar pp% (23.9% vs 21.2%) and Mete scored more than half his points on the PP (Mete 57% Sergachev 40%). In terms of absolute goals (which is really what influences total points and not PP percentages) it was 66 TB to 52 MTL (27% more). In terms of ES situations where both could realistically be used (5 on 5, 4 on 4, 3 on 3, 6 on 5/4), Tampa scored 207 to Montreals pathetic 142 (2.52 vs 1.73 gpg).

So, it's not so surprising considering usage and circumstances how lopsided the point totals were. That doesn't mean Mete would have scored 40 in Tampa. He wouldn't have. But, I think he could've been Tampa's second highest scoring D too, just not at the level of separation Sergachev was. Because, as you said, he's just not as good offensively.

Good read.

I never doubted or argued that Serge's stats aren't inflated, but to what measure. Considering the lack of mobility on our backend and Serge's offensive abilities, I'm pretty sure his baseline in a rookie season in Montreal would've been a minimum of 25 points, but I'd expect north of 30.

 

[Andrei79]

Good read.

I never doubted or argued that Serge's stats aren't inflated, but to what measure. Considering the lack of mobility on our backend and Serge's offensive abilities, I'm pretty sure his baseline in a rookie season in Montreal would've been a minimum of 25 points, but I'd expect north of 30.

I think so too, something around 25 to 30 points. With his skillset, I think he'd have been a good QB alongside Petry on the PP. The only limiting factor would have been Julien.

 

[cphabs]

I will drop the gauntlet and propose a challenge. If Drouin can break 70 points and have. +/- of 0 this year? I will buy an official jersey tackled with his name and number. I will also wear it in absolute pride and humility! Let’s go Johnny! You are 23 now and have all of the ability to meet this challenge. I hope he f***ing does it. Seriously!

 

[DAChampion]

I will drop the gauntlet and propose a challenge. If Drouin can break 70 points and have. +/- of 0 this year? I will buy an official jersey tackled with his name and number. I will also wear it in absolute pride and humility! Let’s go Johnny! You are 23 now and have all of the ability to meet this challenge. I hope he ****ing does it. Seriously!

I challenged the Bergevin defenders to the simpler:

Will either of Domi or Drouin outproduce Galchenyuk this year if they're all healthy?

And they declined to meet it. Though some of them present such arguments in the thread, they don't actually believe them.

 

[DangerDave]

I challenged the Bergevin defenders to the simpler:

Will either of Domi or Drouin outproduce Galchenyuk this year if they're all healthy?

And they declined to meet it. Though some of them present such arguments in the thread, they don't actually believe them.

I think both do actually. Though I'm not an MB defender at all, I just don't like Chuck's style and prefer the speed and intensity these two bring.

 

[DAChampion]

I think both do actually. Though I'm not an MB defender at all, I just don't like Chuck's style and prefer the speed and intensity these two bring.

OK, are you willing to take the bet then?

Will either of Domi or Drouin, outproduce Galchenyuk this year in points/per/game, assuming that both Galchenyuk and at least one of Domi or Drouin play 60+ games?

Loser has to write a ~500-word essay discussing and exploring why he was wrong.

 

[DangerDave]

OK, are you willing to take the bet then?

Will either of Domi or Drouin, outproduce Galchenyuk this year in points/per/game, assuming that both Galchenyuk and at least one of Domi or Drouin play 60+ games?

Loser has to write a ~500-word essay discussing and exploring why he was wrong.

Haha alright.

 

[DAChampion]

Haha alright.

OK good, I took a screenshot, hopefully at least one of us remembers lol.

 

[Price4Prez]

Yaddi yaddi yadda

I said you'd BS about watching him. Just the fact you even compare him to Mete tells me you either haven't watched Serge, or you don't have the analytics to even understand what you are watching

And before you make any comment about youtube, I have center ice and have watched more TB games than I watched Habs games last season.

Keep yappin, pretty sure you'll change your username by the time it's gonna be more than evident Serge is better.

I barely scrolled your text because you're a complete waste of time. It's like talking to a kid about hockey.

That's usually what happens when you realize you're wrong and have nothing left to say. Been nice chatting bud. Enjoy center ice. I'll enjoy the beach, chicks and TBL tickets 7 rows from ice for a few months while in florida haha.

 

[cphabs]

I challenged the Bergevin defenders to the simpler:

Will either of Domi or Drouin outproduce Galchenyuk this year if they're all healthy?

And they declined to meet it. Though some of them present such arguments in the thread, they don't actually believe them.

This challenge is for that little bastard on our team that has a skill set most NHL players would kill for, while intermittently using it.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

That's usually what happens when you realize you're wrong and have nothing left to say. Been nice chatting bud. Enjoy center ice. I'll enjoy the beach, chicks and TBL tickets 7 rows from ice for a few months while in florida haha.

No that's what usually happens when some chump paints knowledgeable posters as lacking vision and then drones on and on without realizing that his arguments are just assinine, but he just keeps believing in them no matter how well founded the counter-arguments are. It becomes pointless.

Also, your comment at the end fits really well with the rest of your vapid thoughts and also proves what I was saying about talking to a kid.

Let's see if you're still around when there will be no doubt left that we lost that trade.

 

[montreal]

If Drouin is on the top line LW and 1st PP unit, I could see him being around what Galchenyuk puts up points wise or ppg if both play most of the year. Domi if he's the #1 center I think he won't be too far behind. Both teams sucked balls at scoring goals last year so it will be interesting.

 

[Kriss E]

Who said anything about getting a spot? We are talking about being productive. Serge would have made the team, sure. He wouldnt have produced nearly as much. Not even the most clueless fan, can argue that.

Also, in general, any player will produce more playing with better quality players. Thats a fact. Example. Did Kotkaniemi look better in rookie camp playing with Waked, Alain and co? Or with Hudon and co last game? Did DLR, yes DLR produce more last year when he was playing with Galchy or when he played on the 4th with DLo and Froese? Full of sarcasm, yet these are facts.

Oppoisition they faced? Sure. Mete when playing with Weber on the top pairing, faced the best forwards on the other team. Similarly, when Weber went down, he played with Petry, which also faced the best forwards. Serg? Who did he play against? He was sheltered. Played 2nd and 3rd pairing against middle to bottom 6 opposition. Yet, another fact.

It's fine if you dont agree with me, i wont lose sleep. At least get the facts straight before you come guns blazing, pretending you're going to teach me something here.

Nobody disagree that Sergachev wouldn't have produced as much. That's very possible. He'd still have put up some good numbers though, just like Petry managed to have a career year crushing his previous high of 28pts with 42. Jeff is not a rookie, but he's also not a #1D and he struggled in Edmonton before being used like that.

What I challenged wasn't that, so I have no clue what you're babbling on about. What was laughable is the idea that Mete would have played/produced as Sergachev did in TB if he were there instead.
That's what people disagreed on, this notion that Mete=Sergachev. That's why people said you haven't watched both players.
Whether a guy will produce more with Stamkos vs Danault....well...duh. That was never the issue.
Trying to paint Serg's success as only being a by-product of playing on a better team, not acknowledging the fact it's harder to even make it on a better team, let alone keep up with the rest of the roster and actually do very well, is very different than just saying "Serg benefitted from playing with top guys". Those two things are completely different.
So maybe you should express yourself clearer.
If you are saying good players make it easier for you to produce. Well, yes, agreed.
If you are saying Mete would produce as much as Serg did. Well, no, he wouldn't have.
If you are saying Serg would have produced less than he did in TB if were he here instead. Well, ya that's possible.

 

[Price4Prez]

No that's what usually happens when some chump paints knowledgeable posters as lacking vision and then drones on and on without realizing that his arguments are just assinine, but he just keeps believing in them no matter how well founded the counter-arguments are. It becomes pointless.

Also, your comment at the end fits really well with the rest of your vapid thoughts and also proves what I was saying about talking to a kid.

Let's see if you're still around when there will be no doubt left that we lost that trade.

Let me guess...you consider yourself one of those knowledgeable posters? lol. The irony of it all. All that bla bla you just spewed, can be said about you and just about anyone else on any topic. You have no argument. You never did.

You are right about one thing though-debating this with you is pointless.

Sooooo ,I'll be here at the end of the year to mock you again when Drouin has a good season.

Until then,do me a favor mr. center ice-actually turn on the channel.

 

[admiralcadillac]

No that's what usually happens when some chump paints knowledgeable posters as lacking vision and then drones on and on without realizing that his arguments are just assinine, but he just keeps believing in them no matter how well founded the counter-arguments are. It becomes pointless.

Also, your comment at the end fits really well with the rest of your vapid thoughts and also proves what I was saying about talking to a kid.

Let's see if you're still around when there will be no doubt left that we lost that trade.

I am not sure what a "knowledgeable poster" is ? Any posters here have insider insight or something? Played in the show? What's the point to painting posters as more or less knowledgeable? Because post count and how familiar you are with the person doesn't cut it.

I'm guilty of being an ass from time to time as well but I don't pretend to be more knowledgeable than other posters. That condescending attitude gets pretty annoying.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I am not sure what a "knowledgeable poster" is ? Any posters here have insider insight or something? Played in the show? What's the point to painting posters as more or less knowledgeable? Because post count and how familiar you are with the person doesn't cut it.

I'm guilty of being an ass from time to time as well but I don't pretend to be more knowledgeable than other posters. That condescending attitude gets pretty annoying.

Maybe you shouldn't be butting into a conversation without going back to its starting point.

If you actually did so, you'd realize that I was responding to price4prez who was making a blanket statement about all the users who don't like the trade, painting everyone who doesn't see it his way as "lacking vision".



Aaaand while we're at it, I don't see how having insider info is mutually exclusive with having hockey knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. You apply yourself in understanding something or you don't. And yes, in my opinion and experience, this forum has more hockey knowledge than I've seen anywhere else on the net.