Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin: To C Or Not to C

[groovejuice]

Sure but we are talking about two different angles where you replied to my post with Bergevin hate. I was simply talking about Drouin's value and that I don't believe we could of acquired him if Sergachev was not on the table.

It's unreasonable to characterize criticism as hate. Give it a break FFS.

 

[Milhouse40]

Bergevin have made some really bad moves but the Radulov one.....

I mean...nobody wanted to sign Radulov 2 years ago.....nobody....

Who signed him ?

There was Bergevin and Patrick roy....and sakic did not wanted Radu....

The only reason why Habs fans enjoyed Radu for a year ...was because of....Bergevin.

No Bergevin..= no Radu at all.... and he chose money (tx) over Mtl at the end......

Bergevin is not good but he made some good moves and Radu is one of them.

As for Drouin...at least he is an exciting player on the wing.....and I think that this team really needs exciting players.....because the team is so boring..

I wanted Radulov 2 years ago, Bergevin really wanted Lucic. Radulov was only the back-up plan cause is 1st plan failed.
There's was ways to keep Radulov in MTL, but Bergevin prefer to keep that extra $1M or that extra years for very special players like Alzner.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's unreasonable to characterize criticism as hate. Give it a break FFS.

If you reply on a Drouin thread on a discussion about Drouin's value with Bergevin dislike, I call it Bergevin hate. This should be about Drouin, not about Bergevin. The trade happened and you don't have to like it. The actual discussion was about the idea we could of got Drouin without using Sergeachev. And you replied with several trades you didn't like that Bergevin made. So I guess you are saying you do think we could of gotten Drouin without using Sergachev because Bergevin sucks at trades? Or are you just wanting to throw Bergevin under the bus on the Drouin thread? Also, Can't wait till you call me a Bergevin lover now.

 

[crosbyshow]

I wanted Radulov 2 years ago, Bergevin really wanted Lucic. Radulov was only the back-up plan cause is 1st plan failed.
There's was ways to keep Radulov in MTL, but Bergevin prefer to keep that extra $1M or that extra years for very special players like Alzner.

Yeahhhh...that was the back-up plan....but who signed him ??? Who ??

in the entire NHL.....no one wanted Radu...no one....as good as we was...everybody thought of his bad attitude in Nashville etc.

Remember when Bergevin signed him...a lot of people in Mtl and around league said that it was a bad move


I still can't believe that nobody gives Bergevin's credit for the Radulov signature

 

[BaseballCoach]

If you reply on a Drouin thread on a discussion about Drouin's value with Bergevin dislike, I call it Bergevin hate. This should be about Drouin, not about Bergevin. The trade happened and you don't have to like it. The actual discussion was about the idea we could of got Drouin without using Sergeachev. And you replied with several trades you didn't like that Bergevin made. So I guess you are saying you do think we could of gotten Drouin without using Sergachev because Bergevin sucks at trades? Or are you just wanting to throw Bergevin under the bus on the Drouin thread? Also, Can't wait till you call me a Bergevin lover now.

I, for one, think we could probably have obtained Drouin for less or different than Sergachev. We had a need for a LD and should not have moved that guy.

Of course, I can't PROVE that it was possible, no one can. But a good clue is that Yzerman was not planning to protect Drouin in the draft. From that I conclude that options existed. I believe the Habs lowered their perceived value of Sergachev after his four-game trial at 18 yo turned out to be unimpressive. So they did not fear trading this piece. That was the same type of mistake they made with McDonagh in 2009, only it was worse becasuse Sergachev's upside was and is basically unlimited, even up to Norris candidate.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yeahhhh...that was the back-up plan....but who signed him ??? Who ??

in the entire NHL.....no one wanted Radu...no one....as good as we was...everybody thought of his bad attitude in Nashville etc.

Remember when Bergevin signed him...a lot of people in Mtl and around league said that it was a bad move


I still can't believe that nobody gives Bergevin's credit for the Radulov signature

Bergevin made the Subban trade. He is forever hated by a large % of our fan base. Weather he makes any good or bad moves moving forward, the focus will be all the negatives he does. Personally, I want a new GM but new President first. My support for Bergevin has diminshed since the Subban trade and it has a lot to do with the player for player trades. He had a decent off season this past year but his player for player trades worry me. The minute this team shows rebound and some promise, I think Bergevin dips his hands in the cookie jar too soon. I prefer a patient GM and he is clearly not a patient GM

As far as Radulov, I would of went after a 3 year term right from the get go. Everybody knew the talent was there. If he didn't work and bolted to Europe, the contract gets voided. Just like Shipachev with Vegas this past year.

Anyways... watch this Bergevin side rail discussion blow up... in the Drouin thread.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I, for one, think we could probably have obtained Drouin for less or different than Sergachev. We had a need for a LD and should not have moved that guy.

Of course, I can't PROVE that it was possible, no one can. But a good clue is that Yzerman was not planning to protect Drouin in the draft. From that I conclude that options existed. I believe the Habs lowered their perceived value of Sergachev after his four-game trial at 18 yo turned out to be unimpressive. So they did not fear trading this piece. That was the same type of mistake they made with McDonagh in 2009, only it was worse becasuse Sergachev's upside was and is basically unlimited, even up to Norris candidate.

Not me. What is your wild attempt at a trade offer for Drouin and do you see other teams easily matching it? For me it comes down to assets like Mete, Scherbak, Hudon, DLR, McCarron, Juulsen. I do think Yzerman was looking for a D too so it comes down to Mete and Juulsen. One of them alone don't get it done. So we would of had to add our 1st on top of that at the very least. Imagine. We also need to consider that Mete and Juulsen don't have the value back when that they have today

The answer to this is to look at the gap in value between Sergachev and the next guy. At that time, we did not have Poehling, Brook, Ikonen, Primeau, Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, Romanov, etc. It was Sergachev, Scherbak, Mete, Juulsen, Hudon type prospects and they were very unproven assets where even many Habs fans called them "nothing special".

I do remember the Galchenyuk and a 1st for Drouin rumors a day or so before the trade was announced. Yzerman was clearly only considering trading Drouin cause of his cap space issue and expansion draft. I think he was not trading Drouin unless the return was right for him. If he didn't get the return he wanted, he would of tried to explore other options other than Drouin

 

[Milhouse40]

Yeahhhh...that was the back-up plan....but who signed him ??? Who ??

in the entire NHL.....no one wanted Radu...no one....as good as we was...everybody thought of his bad attitude in Nashville etc.

Remember when Bergevin signed him...a lot of people in Mtl and around league said that it was a bad move


I still can't believe that nobody gives Bergevin's credit for the Radulov signature

It was heavily reported that Radulov had better offers (From Detroit if my memory serves me well) but he left some on the table to come with Montreal cause he already knew the city since he did his junior here.

So if Bergevin was more high on Lucic than Radulov and didn't even made the best offer to get Radulov.....how much credits Bergevin should get for that.

Radulov was being courted by the Detroit Red Wings and several other teams but the Canadiens were his No. 1 choice and he signed a one-year deal worth $5.75 million.

 

[crosbyshow]

I, for one, think we could probably have obtained Drouin for less or different than Sergachev. We had a need for a LD and should not have moved that guy.

Of course, I can't PROVE that it was possible, no one can. But a good clue is that Yzerman was not planning to protect Drouin in the draft. From that I conclude that options existed. I believe the Habs lowered their perceived value of Sergachev after his four-game trial at 18 yo turned out to be unimpressive. So they did not fear trading this piece. That was the same type of mistake they made with McDonagh in 2009, only it was worse becasuse Sergachev's upside was and is basically unlimited, even up to Norris candidate.

Believe me or not but it happen that I know Julien Brisebois very well since at least 12-15 years.

In the Summer of 2016 I was in the South Shore (cage aux sports) to see a boxing fight. Then somebody told my name behind my back....It was Brisebois and he was with Guy Boucher..

I started to speak to him about everything.....then I asked him:

Hey Julien just for the fun of it..let's make a deal:

Your number 27 vs our number 27 (Galchenyuk vs Drouin)

I told him both are third overall pick (2012 - vs 2013) ...both have an attitude problem.....both played center and on the wing in the juniors etc.. so it is maybe a deal that make sens

Do you make the deal ? For the record Galchenyuk just scored 30 goals and Drouin after his strike had great playoffs with Tampa.

Brisebois said no...and i know him well and he was serious....

Obviously, it was just a conversation...it was not Bergevin in front of him with a serious offer but it gives you an idea. Tampa were very high on Drouin

 

[BaseballCoach]

Believe me or not but it happen that I know Julien Brisebois very well since at least 12-15 years.

In the Summer of 2016 I was in the South Shore (cage aux sports) to see a boxing fight. Then somebody told my name behind my back....It was Brisebois and he was with Guy Boucher..

I started to speak to him about everything.....then I asked him:

Hey Julien just for the fun of it..let's make a deal:

Your number 27 vs our number 27 (Galchenyuk vs Drouin)

I told him both are third overall pick (2012 - vs 2013) ...both have an attitude problem.....both played center and on the wing in the juniors etc.. so it is maybe a deal that make sens

Do you make the deal ? For the record Galchenyuk just scored 30 goals and Drouin after his strike had great playoffs with Tampa.

Brisebois said no...and i know him well and he was serious....

Obviously, it was just a conversation...it was not Bergevin in front of him with a serious offer but it gives you an idea. Tampa were very high on Drouin

What's the difference? As I said, I could not prove my idea. So, if it was impossible to make a fair deal for Drouin, you don't do it, that's all. Trading Sergachev was a mistake. The guy is a super-stud.

 

[groovejuice]

I'm not like you so I won't reply in kind. Bergevin is the "brains" behind the deals, so him being a part of the discussion is absolutely pertinent.

Feel free to limit yourself in the conversation, but please don't be instructing others what is germane. I'm perfectly capable of making that decision for myself.

 

[groovejuice]

I wanted Radulov 2 years ago, Bergevin really wanted Lucic. Radulov was only the back-up plan cause is 1st plan failed.
There's was ways to keep Radulov in MTL, but Bergevin prefer to keep that extra $1M or that extra years for very special players like Alzner.

Bergevin also tried to sign Perron before Radulov. He completely lucked into the right player, then ****** it up as usual. Disaster Artist.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

If you reply on a Drouin thread on a discussion about Drouin's value with Bergevin dislike, I call it Bergevin hate. This should be about Drouin, not about Bergevin. The trade happened and you don't have to like it. The actual discussion was about the idea we could of got Drouin without using Sergeachev. And you replied with several trades you didn't like that Bergevin made. So I guess you are saying you do think we could of gotten Drouin without using Sergachev because Bergevin sucks at trades? Or are you just wanting to throw Bergevin under the bus on the Drouin thread? Also, Can't wait till you call me a Bergevin lover now.

I still think you dismiss part of the logic so you can pretend you're sitting on the fence. Yzerman was about to be hogtied by the protection lists.

You still dismiss:
1- Bergevin being in a position of strenght, because Yzerman was about to be forced to make a decision on a core player

2- still try to just equate their talent value alone without considering the premium put on PMDs and the much greater availability of wingers on all markets.

And Drouin is NOT a gamebreaker

 

[Habs]

Yeahhhh...that was the back-up plan....but who signed him ??? Who ??

in the entire NHL.....no one wanted Radu...no one....as good as we was...everybody thought of his bad attitude in Nashville etc.

Remember when Bergevin signed him...a lot of people in Mtl and around league said that it was a bad move


I still can't believe that nobody gives Bergevin's credit for the Radulov signature

I think Rads played Bergevin pretty brilliantly. There wasn't many people lining up for him, so you sign in a high profile market knowing there will never be a year 2 in the same city. Drive up interest over a year, offers role in year 2.. smart stuff. There was never any intention of staying with old stupid for 2 years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I still think you dismiss part of the logic so you can pretend you're sitting on the fence. Yzerman was about to be hogtied by the protection lists.

You still dismiss:
1- Bergevin being in a position of strenght, because Yzerman was about to be forced to make a decision on a core player

2- still try to just equate their talent value alone without considering the premium put on PMDs and the much greater availability of wingers on all markets.

And Drouin is NOT a gamebreaker

1) So you think Bergevin should of been able to get Drouin for cheaper than Sergachev? By using parts like Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak, Hudon, and picks? Do you seriously think Juulsen and a 1st gets it done? Yzerman was only negotiating with the Habs right? No other team would of matched any other offer we could of packaged up without Sergachev being part of it? Sorry, I already said that if Yzerman did not get the return he wanted, he likely explores other options instead of Drouin to solve his cap and expansion draft issues. He was in desperation mode.

2) Sergachev was a grade A prospect and unproven. He played 4 NHL games with 0 pts and showed a bit of potential. He is not this undisputed top pairing Defenseman

3) Drouin does have game breaking skills. We disagree on this one

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Not me. What is your wild attempt at a trade offer for Drouin and do you see other teams easily matching it? For me it comes down to assets like Mete, Scherbak, Hudon, DLR, McCarron, Juulsen. I do think Yzerman was looking for a D too so it comes down to Mete and Juulsen. One of them alone don't get it done. So we would of had to add our 1st on top of that at the very least. Imagine. We also need to consider that Mete and Juulsen don't have the value back when that they have today

Good god you just don't get it. You just don't make that deal. Drouin WASNT a need. Sergachev was a need as much for us as it was for them.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Good god you just don't get it. You just don't make that deal. Drouin WASNT a need. Sergachev was a need as much for us as it was for them.

How so? I actually think the trade was fair? You can have your own opinion. Without Drouin, we have no game breaking talent but we have a 20 year old LD who looks promising. There are several things we don't agree on here but you think your opinions are facts. Come on man.

So you think you offer a package of what (no Sergachev) or no deal? But you still have not engaged in the conversation and what package you thinks gets the deal done? You did say I didn't realize that Yzerman was in a position of weakness? So surely, you have an idea on what it takes to get the deal done?

You are not afraid to tell me what I don't get so I will return the favor. You don't get this. Sergachev was an unproven talent and Drouin was. But wait, you are too busy pumping Sergachev's tires and deflating Drouin's cause you think Yzerman is going to trade us Drouin cause he is in a position of weakness and he had no other options.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

1) So you think Bergevin should of been able to get Drouin for cheaper than Sergachev? By using parts like Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak, Hudon, and picks? Do you seriously think Juulsen and a 1st gets it done? Yzerman was only negotiating with the Habs right? No other team would of matched any other offer we could of packaged up without Sergachev being part of it? Sorry, I already said that if Yzerman did not get the return he wanted, he likely explores other options instead of Drouin to solve his cap and expansion draft issues. He was in desperation mode.

You just don't do it. It's a mistake. You will realize it soon enough.

2) Sergachev was a grade A prospect and unproven. He played 4 NHL games with 0 pts and showed a bit of potential. He is not this undisputed top pairing Defenseman

That's not the point. With Markov going out soon, our left side was depleted of skill. It is a much greater need. Both for us AND TB.

3) Drouin does have game breaking skills. We disagree on this one

Being shifty isn't game breaking. Having skills isn't game breaking. Hustling and battling and getting over the opponent when it matters the most is what game breakers do.

Drouin has shown very limited (last playoffs he played) game breaking ability.

 

[Andrei79]

Good god you just don't get it. You just don't make that deal. Drouin WASNT a need. Sergachev was a need as much for us as it was for them.

It was bad on so many levels:

Yzerman had to make a deal or he was losing Killorn and was stuck paying for a player who would hinder a high salary acquisition (which ended up being McDonagh).

MB had all the negociating powers: he had a skilled playmaking winger in Radulov who would've resigned for 7M, not that far off from what Drouin signed. He had the space, picks, prospects, everything was in his favor.

He, instead, traded his top prospect, who Markov could've groomed during his last year, for that player. Not only was it a need for us and a need for them, he traded him to our direct competition.

As bad as Jim Nill is, he never even contemplated trading Heiskanen for the best defenseman in the last 10 years, nevermind an unproven winger. Neither did Vegas contemplate trading Glass, despite an already strong team that added another top 6 center.

Only Bergevin would make that trade and add a 2nd to it. We should have at least worked a deal out to get a center on top of Drouin, even if it was Tyler Johnson.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

How so? I actually think the trade was fair? You can have your own opinion. Without Drouin, we have no game breaking talent but we have a 20 year old LD who looks promising. There are several things we don't agree on here but you think your opinions are facts. Come on man.

So you think you offer a package of what (no Sergachev) or no deal? But you still have not engaged in the conversation and what package you thinks gets the deal done? You did say I didn't realize that Yzerman was in a position of weakness? So surely, you have an idea on what it takes to get the deal done?

You are not afraid to tell me what I don't get so I will return the favor. You don't get this. Sergachev was an unproven talent and Drouin was. But wait, you are too busy pumping Sergachev's tires and deflating Drouin's cause you think Yzerman is going to trade us Drouin cause he is in a position of weakness and he had no other options.

Your opinion means sweet **** all when you dismiss reality and facts.

Go argue with someone who cares about your fantasy world where Drouin is a game breaker and Yzerman wasnt tied up and Serge wasnt a bigger need.

You also contradicted yourself because you previously said you were on the fence (i also said you were pretending to be on the fence) and you then prove me right by showing your true colors by saying you think the trade was fair. That's not being on the fence.

T, people dislike arguing with you because you can't redefine your opinion by including new facts. You constantly dismiss what others see as reality, and it's not just opinion, but a capacity to gather all facts, not just the ones that fit your narrative.

 

[crosbyshow]

You just don't do it. It's a mistake. You will realize it soon enough.


That's not the point. With Markov going out soon, our left side was depleted of skill. It is a much greater need. Both for us AND TB.


Being shifty isn't game breaking. Having skills isn't game breaking. Hustling and battling and getting over the opponent when it matters the most is what game breakers do.

Drouin has shown very limited (last playoffs he played) game breaking ability.

i am not ag

You just don't do it. It's a mistake. You will realize it soon enough.


That's not the point. With Markov going out soon, our left side was depleted of skill. It is a much greater need. Both for us AND TB.


Being shifty isn't game breaking. Having skills isn't game breaking. Hustling and battling and getting over the opponent when it matters the most is what game breakers do.

Drouin has shown very limited (last playoffs he played) game breaking ability.

Not agree at all with your last sentance. I watched all his playoff's games in 2016 with Tampa and he was lethal. The Pens are my second favorite team and i was so scared of Drouin when Tampa played against the pens in the third round. The last game, he scored the first goal of the game and the review said that there was off side but it was so close. Drouin did 14 points in 17 games that year...something that Galcheyuk can only dream of..

 

[Habs Halifax]

You just don't do it. It's a mistake. You will realize it soon enough.


That's not the point. With Markov going out soon, our left side was depleted of skill. It is a much greater need. Both for us AND TB.


Being shifty isn't game breaking. Having skills isn't game breaking. Hustling and battling and getting over the opponent when it matters the most is what game breakers do.

Drouin has shown very limited (last playoffs he played) game breaking ability.

It's premature evaluation to say anything for sure at this stage. You should realize this. The measure of that trade (AT THAT TIME) was to acquire a young game breaking talent and a possible center. We had no choice but to give up our best prospect or Yzerman said no deal (with had nothing else to offer). What's funny is most like the deal if we re-sign Markov and Radulov but don't like the deal cause they both were not re-signed? Was Markov like age 30 or 35 and around for several years? Were we a cup contender with Drouin, Markov, Radulov? Is that why some think it only made sense to make that trade?

It was one hole for another. A game breaking talent up front (center or winger) for a unproven grade A prospect and a conditional pick. Just like Drouin is not a center and might not ever be a center, Sergachev is not a top pairing D yet. To say anything for sure at this point is premature. Just like if Kotkaniemi can be a top 2 center vs Zadina can score 40+

 

[crosbyshow]

Drouin - playoffs 2016.....he was very ...very good ...and without Stamkos

14 points in 17 games
**

 

[Habs Halifax]

Drouin - playoffs 2016.....he was very ...very good ...and without Stamkos

14 points in 17 games
**

But wait, he is not game breaking talent. He is barely a top 6 forward for us. What a joke! The goals this kid scored in that playoff run were huge for Tampa! Drouin's problem on the Habs is lack of talent around him. Something Sergachev benefits from in Tampa. Sergachev would barely get 15-20 pts on our roster last year and the same Habs fans who hate this trade would of been all over Sergachev and how he is "nothing special"

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

i am not ag



Not agree at all with your last sentance. I watched all his playoff's games in 2016 with Tampa and he was lethal. The Pens are my second favorite team and i was so scared of Drouin when Tampa played against the pens in the third round. The last game, he scored the first goal of the game and the review said that there was off side but it was so close. Drouin did 14 points in 17 games that year...something that Galcheyuk can only dream of..

One playoff doesnt a game breaker make.

At this rate, Eller is a bigger game breaker and he was added for two 2nd round picks.

Dont know why you mention AG?