Player Discussion John Moore

Discussion in 'Boston Bruins' started by 774EVER, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. bearcountry17

    bearcountry17 Registered User

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    I think the idea is to give him slightly harder usage than Grzelcyk, as to be able to hide Krug more and also kill some penalties to spell Chara a bit. He also seems to be a very good 3on3 player which this team could use badly. Two more 3 on 3 wins last year and the Bruins play the Devils and let Toronto and Tampa knock one of each other out.
     
  2. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    Why are you using goals against as a measure of defensive play? We're trying to isolate a player from teammates and on-ice impacts beyond his control as much as possible, so there's no reason to introduce the goaltending component into that. Use shot-based metrics. xGA is going to tell you a lot more about defensive acumen, for example.

    I'm not "ignoring" anything. Your problematic WOWY analysis don't really tell us a whole lot either except what we all already knew, that NJ was a dog**** team that relied on Taylor Hall and a PDO bender to make any waves.

    Yes. Moore is just another mediocre defenseman, essentially no different than a zillion other players in the league. And that's the point. There was ZERO reason to give *that* player 5-years of term. Taking up a contract spot and limiting cap flexibility for a guy who is essentially a wash is silly. If the Bruins felt they needed another body on the blue line for depth, there were plenty of other comparables who ended up signing one or two year deals. What about the guy that they traded assets for at the deadline only 6 months before?

    But the real crux of the problem is that if Moore is playing, that means someone -- a superior player -- is likely sitting too, unless they play Moore on his off side. Even then, I'm not sure I would buy the argument that Moore is better than Kevan Miller. We also know that playing on their off side hampers on-ice results of most defensemen. Moore shouldn't be playing more than Chara and certainly not more than Krug, so he's ideally playing a few minutes at 5-on-5 and mostly playing on the PK. But in order to get him in, you're taking Grz out of the lineup. Great. Or, if Grz beats out Moore for a spot, then you're paying $2.75 million for Moore and $2.75 million for McQuaid to sit in the pressbox and eat popcorn. So, barring some trade on the defense before the season starts, you've got three options for Moore's place in the lineup and none of them are an especially good use of resources.
     
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  3. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    Why not just continue to develop Grz? His gap and stick checking are basically his best assets. They would be great on the penalty kill. So he's not physical. So what? I'll take the guy who can deny a zone entry or strip the puck away from an opponent over the guy who can lay a crushing hit and never get the puck out of his own zone.

    And the Bruins don't really need another 3on3 defender. They typically run the smart deployment of one defenseman and two forwards. Krug and McAvoy are perfect for that. If you need another 3-on-3 unit, Gryz is also an effective puck distributor. Also, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Hall is the reason why NJ had so much success at 3-on-3 last year, no John Moore.
     
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  4. GloryDaze4877

    GloryDaze4877 Barely Irrelevant

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    Like Grizz a lot, but I don’t think he would be good on the PK at all, never mind “great”.

    He does possess a “good stick”, but that and his gap control were his best assets? Wow, I thought all along his hockey IQ and his skating were his two best assets? Moore is much larger and a very good skater as well. His wingspan and physical size will be a much better asset than a “good stick” on the PK and in defensive situations.

    The Bruins FO obviously saw something in the playoffs last season that led them to believe that they needed more size than Krug and Grizz on the left side. While both of them have good wheels and their defensive positioning is pretty good, they can both also be overwhelmed by bigger forwards simply because of size/strength differential.

    As far as his Cap hit being unmanageable and him “taking a spot” from a superior talent (your previous post). That will work itself out in the preseason and early regular season. If Moore is outperformed by Grizz and others, and proves to be the 8th D, he will be moved. Not sure if you have been paying attention to some of the recent D signings, but a 27 year old 3rd pair that can play roughly 20 min per game is a bargain at $2.75m.

    If the B’s decide that Moore isn’t a good fit, or that they have better options, they will have zero issues moving Moore at that money. He makes less than 3.5% of the Cap and doesn’t have any no trade or no movement clauses.
     
  5. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    I think physicality/strength on the PK is overrated. It's not without it's value, I'm just not sure that it's the most important factor. You're not doing a tremendous amount of board battles while PKing, most of the time you're trying to keep the puck in the perimeter if you can't get it out. You only really need strength for clearing the net, but that's certainly not the only way to shutdown the netfront guy. Being able to read the play, intercept or break-up passes, and skate quickly enough to close the gap is more important. All of those things Grz is good at. Yes, Moore is a fine skater and has the long reach. Is he gonna be bad on the PK? Probably not. I'm just saying that developing Grz as a PKer makes more sense in my eyes. The model for him should be a player like Jared Spurgeon. Small, quick, possesses good hockey sense and can play on the PK.

    I never said that Moore's cap hit is unmanageable. Yes, it's "only" $2.75 mil. But a "27 year old 3rd pair that can play roughly 20 min per game" is not exactly bargain, though. He's a third pairing guy, we agree. If he's playing 20 minutes a night, though, that means he's being deployed well above his abilities. And really, the only reason he got 20 minutes a night with the Devils is for a lack of better options, and as I pointed out in a previous post, he didn't have very good results relative to his team and teammates while doing so. Is his contract going to kill the Bruins? No. But that, combined with what McQuaid is making and Kevan Miller represents a weird allocation of cap space. The Bruins had the right idea when they signed Postma to a 1-year deal at 900k last year. They should have done something similar this year. The difference in ability between what Moore brings and what you can get for cheap doesn't really make it worthwhile.

    So, yes, maybe the Bruins can move Moore to some team, but let's be honest, if they felt he was deserving of 5 years of term, there's no chance they're gonna move him after camp barring some absolute disaster. He'll hang around and they likely won't move on from him until Zboril/Vaak/Lauzon force it, and even then they're probably far more likely to move Krug or Grz. Not to mention Sweeney's coveted playoff depth. Moore is gonna be here for a few years, at the very least.

    To sum up, is Moore going to kill the Bruins? No. He's an NHLer, obviously. I just don't think he represents any kind of upgrade over what they already have.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  6. Oates2Neely

    Oates2Neely Registered User

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    Worst case scenario he’s a trade deadline asset? NHL dmen who can skate and eat up minutes are valuable.
     
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  7. Jean_Jacket41

    Jean_Jacket41 Neely = HOF

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    Last year Sweeney gave a 3rd rounder and O'Gara for Holden at the deadline for depth.

    Signing Moore this offseason gives the Bruins 8 qualiber D not even counting on the progression of the AHL guys in Zboril-UV-Lauzon.

    No doubt Sweeney won't need to waste any asset to go for a depth D acquisition at the next deadline.

    That is also a plus to this signing.

    Bruins top-8 might be the best in the NHL.
     
  8. MetM

    MetM Registered User Sponsor

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    I think giving a contract (that type of contract) to Moore is last thing we should worry about.
    Decent player and cap hit is good, they could trade him easily at any moment.
    But my guess is they won't have to.
     
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  9. GloryDaze4877

    GloryDaze4877 Barely Irrelevant

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    Jared Spurgeon is a proven 24-25 minute NHL D-man that plays in all situations, and...is a significantly better player than Grzelcyk (particularly defensively). He is the exception to the rule, not the norm. He also makes nearly twice as much money as Moore and about four times as much as Grizz. Other than actual physical size, the two players have little in common.

    Last season, the Bruin's PK was 3rd in the NHL at 83.7% utilizing larger D like Chara, Carlo, Miller, McQuaid and Holden. The smallest of these guys was Miller at 6'2".

    The Wild PK was 13th in the NHL at 81.3% with guys like Spurgeon (among others) on the PK.

    The B's were obviously doing something right on the PK. So, if they want to add another bigger guy into the mix (Moore is also 6'2") to replace Holden or possibly McQ's PK minutes, who am I to argue?

    And as far as bang for the buck goes, here are some of the comparable contracts to Moore's from CapFriendly:


    CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps


    Notice McQ at $2.75m and Miller at $2.5m, both of whom play less minutes than Moore, and signed their deals a few years ago. For what Moore gives you, $2.75m is very good value in this day and age.
     
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  10. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    I brought up Spurgeon as an example of a "small" defenseman who can still be successful on the PK, not as a direct one-to-one comparable to Grz.

    Again, the problem with adding a "bigger guy" is that he has to replace someone in the lineup. If you're taking out Grz's excellent results at 5-on-5 to get Moore on the second PK unit...is that really worth the tradeoff? Maybe it is! I truly don't know. It just seems risky to do that all based on the presumption that size = better defense.

    And once more, I truly don't care how much TOI Moore got on the Devils. It's not a reliable measure of skill or ability, it's just a measure of how much the coach liked the player over other available options and given the weakness of the Devils' defense, it's not surprising. Remember when Adam McQuaid and Kevan Miller got regular minutes on the top pairing a few seasons ago? That doesn't mean they belonged there.
     
  11. ODAAT

    ODAAT Registered User

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    I`m wondering how many here commenting with a bit less than enthusiastic feedback about Moore have actually seen him with some sample size? I have not, I don`t know much about him myself, based on what I have read, sounds like he`s mobile, has some decent puck skills, has a bit of size which will enable him to absorb contact from opponents.

    Hardly signed to a cap killer contract, looking forward to reading about the internal competition as camp rolls around and seeing how the season plays out long before I declare this guy a waste of cap space or a Norris candidate
     
  12. wintersej

    wintersej HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    xGA had the Julien Bruins as a Cup contender his last two seasons. xGA has Colin Miller as an elite defensive defenseman. I think much like QoC being "noise" in the past in the analytics community, xGA has a lot of things to work on as a predictor of future success. Mostly the fact that people play as a unit and styles and roles can change effectiveness. Carlo, for instance had a very different season playing Julien collapse and protect D system with Chara than being asked to attack and confront with Krug as his partner. Most agree his rookie season was better... yet guess which season he had a better xGA?

    Yes, Moore playing with dog****. Not sure what we are disagreeing on here. He won't in Boston.

    Clearly they think more highly of Moore than you do. They must like that you can throw him our there on either side in any circumstance and he won't be a liability. Is 5 years a long time? Sure. But his AAV is perfectly fine for a #5 d-man. Especially with McQuaid this offseason and Miller next offseason coming off the books. They found a guy the like to replace those guys $ slots a year early. Don't see the freak out here.

    If Krug has taught us anything its that who you are playing against matters. Every year he has seen harder comp, and every year he has seen his GA/60 go up. Even as he has become a better player in that time. This assumption you have that Moore must suck because he was mediocre with no help against top competition isn't based on much. Heck, we see what happens to Kevin Miller against better competition, too. This is why scouting exists. Bruins identified a player that can skate and defend and doesn't need to be sheltered. They clearly think that he is better than his on ice numbers in Jersey indicate.

    Who cares about McQuaid? He is gone end of year. Miller the year after. Moore is a nice #5 that you can play up in the lineup if you have to. On a team that has seen 2 of their top 4D go down during or before the playoffs two years running.
     
  13. GloryDaze4877

    GloryDaze4877 Barely Irrelevant

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    As I said, Grizz was impressive last year, but part of that, if we are being honest, was because he got a lot of favorable matchups during the regular season 5v5.

    NJ was a playoff team last year with a pretty good D corps, so let’s not act like Moore played 20 minutes a night on the Kansas City Scouts or California Seals. If he can handle 2nd line and PK duties in Boston (which remains to be seen) that means you could slide Krug down to 3rd pair 5v5 and PP duties. As much as I like Grizz, Krug is more of a mismatch in that role than he is, which strengthens the team overall.

    I don’t think anyone here is advocating giving Moore time over someone better just because he’s bigger. I also don’t want think Moore is a 7/8 D, which is basically what you have been saying.
     
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  14. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    I think Moore is likely a solid bottom-pairing guy and would be on most teams. He's a 7th D on this team because I think Grz is a better option in a variety of ways given the prospects they have in the pipeline who should be pushing for NHL time and the type of guys they have on the right side. I think his signing is an overreaction from playoffs. Just my two cents.
     
  15. BruinDust

    BruinDust Chairman of Par Lindholm Fan Club

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    But those prospects aren't pushing for NHL time. That's the point, that's the problem. If Sweeney thought that any of Urho, Zboril, or Lauzon were about to push for an NHL job, I don't think they sign Moore.

    But each of these guys have legit concerns for different reasons. Doesn't make them bad prospects.

    And your looking at this in a bubble. Fact is Moore was a quality player/asset they acquired for nothing. Teams supposedly have called the Bruins about Gryz, because he's a good D-man. So if Sweeney wants to move him later, he won't have any issue doing so. Same with Miller or McQuaid on the right-side. Just because they have the 8 guys now doesn't mean they will have the same 8 come December. Sweeney CAN make changes, you are allowed to make trades in the NHL. Oh and now you have more flexibility to make a move if you need help at forward, you can trade from your depth on D.
     
  16. GloryDaze4877

    GloryDaze4877 Barely Irrelevant

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    If the Bruin’s FO thought Grizz was a better option and they had prospects “pushing for NHL time”, they don’t sign Moore (as BD just said).

    These things work themselves out on the ice, not on message boards.
     
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  17. GoBs

    GoBs Registered User

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    Because it was obvious in the playoffs him and Krug were getting pushed off the puck far too easy and they needed to upgrade in size. The Lightening picked right up on it and pushed everything to that corner. Moore did a good job on the Devils, name anther D-man from NJ? Devils made the playoffs last year and this guy played a bunch. Give the guy a chance.
     
  18. BMC

    BMC Per Johan Axelsson Sponsor

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    Damn good thing too.
     
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  19. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    This is either one hell of a strawman or one hell of a misunderstanding of the applications of xGA.

    xGA is NOT perfect, but it's both more descriptive AND predictive of future goal suppression than just using raw goals against, which is riddled with noise and variance. I realize I'm on HFBoards so I'm kind of shouting into the abyss here, but still.

    The point is that he wasn't really a driver of play in NJ, so why is there any reason to give a guy like that 5 years of term? What he brings is essentially no different than the dozens of other good-skating bottom-pair defenseman that are available for cheaper and shorter.

    So can Kevan Miller. Even then, we know that playing on their off hand hampers results for defensemen, so it's not an ideal situation.

    Agree to disagree there regarding giving term to bottom-pairing players. And I'm certainly not freaking out, I'm expressing doubt that this was a deal that needed to be made given the surplus of similar defenders available every year.

    Who you play with matters more, since quality of competition tends to wash out over an entire season.

    It's not an assumption. I'm looking at his on-ice results over a large sample and relative to his teammates he is not someone who drives play. Is he going to be terrible in a smaller role? Probably not. He might even be good! But again, why limit yourself contractually and cap-wise for marginal talent? And why push out a guy who you already know can play well in that spot in Grz unless you're REALLY going to see huge improvements (like if Krug got Grz's minutes and a superior defender took Krug's)?

    So the Bruins front office who keep making the mistake of giving Krug more icetime and playing him against tougher competition despite his GA/60 increasing (!!!!) are now also to be trusted 100% in player evaluation? After all, we know they have a perfect record when it comes to scouting and player acquisition. They've certainly never given a regrettable contract to any players they thought could come in and make a difference.

    I know you don't actually believe that. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of appealing to authority when it comes to Hockey Men decision-making.

    Again, this isn't going to kill the Bruins' cap. But it's about the opportunity cost of having that much money tied up in these kind of players. Money that can be used to see actual improvements in the roster. I'm not opposed to getting depth players for injury insurance, I'm opposed to giving depth players money and term like what happened during Chia's tenure.

    I think that's all I've got to say about John Moore. Hope I'm completely and utterly wrong about him. Appreciate the dialog.
     
  20. maxl7

    maxl7 Registered User

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    That may well be. I'm not even talking about this year, though. By all reports, the org is very high on Vaakinainen. He *will* be pushing for a job soon. Whether that's this year or next or whenever. He already has a ton of pro games under his belt despite his age.

    Cap space isn't nothing. Contract spots aren't nothing. I've said this a million times but I know that this contract isn't a cap killer (now, at least). But how many times did we all rightfully **** on Chia for giving term and money to depth guys unnecessarily? Moore is fine, but he's a dime-a-dozen.

    Right, and what are the chances he's going to play now that Big McLargeHuge is on the roster?

    Not sure if you mean Sweeney moving on from Grz or Moore here.

    Everyone here is on a different page. "We need 8 defenseman for injury insurance!" "We can trade some defensemen for help!" Two completely mutually exclusive justifications for signing Moore.
     
  21. wintersej

    wintersej HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    Yes who you play with matters more because there is more control. But who you play against matters, too. When we talk about Moore being a non-driver with his 49% Corsi, we are talking about one extra shot allowed every two games vs a 50% guy. ALL these difference are marginal and they all add up to mean something meaningful. You think him playing against better competition can't explain 1 shot every two games?

    Ditto.
     
  22. BruinDust

    BruinDust Chairman of Par Lindholm Fan Club

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    Bruins have plenty of contract spots. Once again, you got an asset for zero assets (players or picks) going back. Don't believe this bunk on HF Boards that cap space is an asset. It's not. That's the sort of HF Boards capologist crap you see around this place.

    You don't like the player, it's clear by your "Dime-a-dozen" comment. But he's not a "Dime-a-dozen", because if he was, he'd be getting "Dime-a-dozen" pay and term. The rules of how a labour market operates in terms of supply and demand still apply. You make it sound like Sweeney was the only GM making him this type of offer, and everyone else was offering 1-2 years at south of a million per.

    Mutally exclusive justifications? Both can be used as reasons to make this move. You keep looking at this in a bubble when there are plenty of ways this can play out in terms of what the roster looks like in the months and years moving forward.
     
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  23. Jean_Jacket41

    Jean_Jacket41 Neely = HOF

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    That's not how I see it.

    McQuaid is on his last contract year and likely gone after the season. Miller has two year and has some value so he can be traded if UV, Zboril, Lauzon, any other ELC, show they belong.

    To me, Moore is taking the McQuaid/Miller roster spot. Not the UV/Zboril/Lauzon/etc one. If they show they belong this training camp/season/next year, Sweeney will find them a spot.

    But for this year, no need to rush anyone. Let these kids get another year of experience in the AHL and go with the best top-8 in the NHL rotating in and out Miller/McQuaid/Gryz/Moore with Chara/McAvoy/Krug/Carlo playing every night.
     
  24. BruinDust

    BruinDust Chairman of Par Lindholm Fan Club

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    No doubt, he will.

    Cassidy said it himself today. Those guys got a tough road to make this roster out of camp this season.

    But the management of the Bruins clearly aren't EXPECTING either of them to push for a job right now. Given that Urho is a 1st year NA pro, and Zboril and Lauzon both had just OK seasons as 1st year AHLers, not surprising. If either of them looked on the cusp the way McAvoy did a year prior, I don't think they sign Moore, or at least, if they sign him, someone else is already gone.

    But after this season, it will play out likely as you stated. And gives the 3 young guys plenty of time to develop and maybe someday be ready for an NHL job. But let's be honest here, the odds that Zboril, Lauzon, and Urho are all on the Boston Bruin main roster all at the same time are very remote.
     
  25. LouJersey

    LouJersey Al<3xxx

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    Moore’s signing means a few things to me.

    The kids aren’t close or even reliable enough yet to trust as a 7.

    Bruins don’t like the 5v5 defensive play of Krug

    The Bruins feel there is no way they get past round two with two 5-9 defensemen. Tampa bludgeoned those smaller guys.
     
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