Player Discussion John Moore

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

The way I try to look at guys coming from another team is how did they rank on their previous team. Different teams play different styles and for some guys a certain style just doesn't suit their game. Anyways a few stats and where Moore ranked among NJD d-man last year (min 40 games / 6 d-man qualified):

TOI - 2nd
Blocks - 2nd
Hits - 1st
oiSV% - 2nd
Goals - 2nd
Assist - 4th
Shots - 1st
Shot% - 3rd
Thru% - 1st

His zone starts were nearly 50/50 last season and it looks like he was one of NJD better d-man asked to play top pairing minutes. In Boston he'll bonce around (depending on the situation) between the 2nd and 3rd pairing and play more of a supporting role. I know I've said it a few times in this thread, but I think Moore will surprise people and be a really good signing.

saw an earlier poster here mention how the vegas example worked out last year... and now your showing the advanced stats drives the point home even further. if you get enough of these guys on reasonable contracts and they can move up and down the lineup from first pair to third pair depending how confident they are on any given night... and especially if they have good skating ability without being total smurfs… that just all screams a good thing

I knew almost nothing of moore the day of the signing. but every day since then ive liked more and more what ive been learning about moore. I REALLY want to see this guy play for us and I am very FULL OF ANTICIPATION now that this deal will be every bit as good a signing as you think too

 

[maxl7]

saw an earlier poster here mention how the vegas example worked out last year... and now your showing the advanced stats drives the point home even further. if you get enough of these guys on reasonable contracts and they can move up and down the lineup from first pair to third pair depending how confident they are on any given night... and especially if they have good skating ability without being total smurfs… that just all screams a good thing

I knew almost nothing of moore the day of the signing. but every day since then ive liked more and more what ive been learning about moore. I REALLY want to see this guy play for us and I am very FULL OF ANTICIPATION now that this deal will be every bit as good a signing as you think too

I know this is extremely pedantic, but almost none of these stats are "advanced" . No mention of corsi, expected goals, etc. The ones listed here all have varying degrees of usefulness and value, but none of them as much as the stats I mentioned. oiSV% is particularly misleading in terms of describing a player's impact, for example.

 

[ON3M4N]

I know this is extremely pedantic, but almost none of these stats are "advanced" . No mention of corsi, expected goals, etc. The ones listed here all have varying degrees of usefulness and value, but none of them as much as the stats I mentioned. oiSV% is particularly misleading in terms of describing a player's impact, for example.

Maybe they are in the different thread, but I haven't see you mention any stats.

 

[maxl7]

Maybe they are in the different thread, but I haven't see you mention any stats.

Nope, I haven't brought any up. I was mostly just pointing out the mislabeling of the ones you posted as being what is commonly accepted as part of the "advanced" stats package -- no slight intended.

However, I will say that virtually no one in the stats community would use these in any kind of serious analysis (aside from the obvious ones like goals and descriptive ones like TOI).

 

[Son of Donegal]

Maxl7, I appreciate your contributions here. I follow analytics from afar and listen to folks like Dim Filopovic. I enjoy the analytics side of the game but am not an analyst in the least. I understand analytics is 100% data driven and that is the whole point. So a question to you: do you ever see examples of advanced stats like corsi, fenwick, pdo changing based on how a player is utilized or in the case of Moore, when he is traded to a team with a stronger overall cast?

I look at a player like Torey Krug who has seen his minutes increase as well as his offensive zone starts...and his corsi has increased along with it. In fact, his Corsi is really really good. His PDO suggests he is actually a better player than his stats indicate.

In the case of John Moore, it remains to be seen how he is utilized, but in a new system and with a much stronger defensive partner (no offense to Damon Severson, but he isn't very good) could one expect a shift towards stronger possession and shot share #'s?

Or is John Moore who he is?

 

[ON3M4N]

Nope, I haven't brought any up. I was mostly just pointing out the mislabeling of the ones you posted as being what is commonly accepted as part of the "advanced" stats package -- no sleight intended.

However, I will say that virtually no one in the stats community would use these in any kind of serious analysis (aside from the obvious ones like goals and descriptive ones like TOI).

Well I guess someone should inform the NHL to stop tracking some of these then. No point in wasting resources tracking stats that the "stats community" doesn't take seriously.

 

[maxl7]

Maxl7, I appreciate your contributions here. I follow analytics from afar and listen to folks like Dim Filopovic. I enjoy the analytics side of the game but am not an analyst in the least. I understand analytics is 100% data driven and that is the whole point. So a question to you: do you ever see examples of advanced stats like corsi, fenwick, pdo changing based on how a player is utilized or in the case of Moore, when he is traded to a team with a stronger overall cast?

I look at a player like Torey Krug who has seen his minutes increase as well as his offensive zone starts...and his corsi has increased along with it. In fact, his Corsi is really really good. His PDO suggests he is actually a better player than his stats indicate.

In the case of John Moore, it remains to be seen how he is utilized, but in a new system and with a much stronger defensive partner (no offense to Damon Severson, but he isn't very good) could one expect a shift towards stronger possession and shot share #'s?

Or is John Moore who he is?

Yes, you may see an increase in Moore's shot-based metrics if he is given a reduced role. One prominent example of that is Dan Girardi, who was an absolute disaster those last few years in New York but actually became useful when deployed in a much smaller, focused role. However, the degree to which those stats will improve is obviously not really predictable. There's still a question of what is causing those results. Is the guy facing tougher competition and doesn't have the ability to win the individual battles? Is he being played with worse teammates? Or is there something else structural with the player's game that is changing between teams/roles?

So, is it likely that John Moore gets better results paired with better players and playing against worse competition? It's possible! But is it likely that he fares better than say, Grz in that same role/minutes? That's where the risk outweighs the reward for me and why I think it made sense to go with a cheaper, shorter term option for depth purposes.

Also, as a side note, PDO shouldn't be used to measure a player's skill -- it's a a measure of how "lucky" a player was. Krug had a down year in sh% partially because his shoulder troubles, and after he successfully recovered from that it made sense why it "improved". This is an older article, but it's short and sweet and I feel it describes exactly what PDO is and what it should be used for pretty well: PDO: The one advanced stat you need to understand

 

[maxl7]

Well I guess someone should inform the NHL to stop tracking some of these then. No point in wasting resources tracking stats that the "stats community" doesn't take seriously.

Truly, I didn't mean to discourage you from posting those. I'm sorry if I insulted you in anyway. I just didn't wanted to clarify for people. Like I said, some of them are useful and descriptive, others not as much. That's all.

 

[bob27]

Throughout John Moore's career he's had bad-to-mediocre basic stats and bad-to-mediocre advanced stats and garnered pretty mediocre eye test reviews from Devils fans. Considering Sweeney's bad-to-mediocre history with UFA signings, I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict he'll be a bad-to-mediocre player for the Bruins. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

 

[Son of Donegal]

Yes, you may see an increase in Moore's shot-based metrics if he is given a reduced role. One prominent example of that is Dan Girardi, who was an absolute disaster those last few years in New York but actually became useful when deployed in a much smaller, focused role. However, the degree to which those stats will improve is obviously not really predictable. There's still a question of what is causing those results. Is the guy facing tougher competition and doesn't have the ability to win the individual battles? Is he being played with worse teammates? Or is there something else structural with the player's game that is changing between teams/roles?

So, is it likely that John Moore gets better results paired with better players and playing against worse competition? It's possible! But is it likely that he fares better than say, Grz in that same role/minutes? That's where the risk outweighs the reward for me and why I think it made sense to go with a cheaper, shorter term option for depth purposes.

Also, as a side note, PDO shouldn't be used to measure a player's skill -- it's a a measure of how "lucky" a player was. Krug had a down year in sh% partially because his shoulder troubles, and after he successfully recovered from that it made sense why it "improved". This is an older article, but it's short and sweet and I feel it describes exactly what PDO is and what it should be used for pretty well: PDO: The one advanced stat you need to understand

Thanks for sharing the PDO article and for your contributions on John Moore.

 

[Son of Donegal]

Throughout John Moore's career he's had bad-to-mediocre basic stats and bad-to-mediocre advanced stats and garnered pretty mediocre eye test reviews from Devils fans. Considering Sweeney's bad-to-mediocre history with UFA signings, I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict he'll be a bad-to-mediocre player for the Bruins. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Hoping that Cassidy is able to shellac and polish the turd a bit here. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

 

[Son of Donegal]

Oh and also, he is expansion draft eligible...so there is that!

 

[ON3M4N]

Truly, I didn't mean to discourage you from posting those. I'm sorry if I insulted you in anyway. I just didn't wanted to clarify for people. Like I said, some of them are useful and descriptive, others not as much. That's all.

Didn't insult me at all. Stats are just another tool in looking at a player. There is no one stat that is the end all be all, if there was it would be the only stat used. The big thing with stats (as I'm sure you know) is taking them in the right context.

 

[BruinDust]

just wondering if height/weight is an important part of your job? ive been an author... a car wash attendant... a taxi driver... a 7-11 manager... honestly height/weight don't play any factor at all in any of my jobs and I would never ever see myself in a coworker based on attributes that don't matter.

but ive worked alongside a few guys I thought were very honest... saw some of myself in them... wrote some stuff with a partner who was very creative... saw some of myself in her... worked with a few 'nice guys' and believe it or not im pretty nice and saw some of myself in them too.

I think you sort of mocked the op with your post. but I don't think its worth mocking. I have no proof that Sweeney is a huge fan of grzy or if he does identify with smaller dmen… but I don't think its ridiculous to suggest he might have more of an open mind then say a rob blake or a bob boughner might.

ultimately though its the coach that hands out the game starts and the icetime. I haven't heard of more than a handful of cases where a gm will try to override a coachs decesions with who plays. at worst maybe a gm will trade away a coaches binky and try to take away options... but ultimately gryz playing time is more up to Cassidy then it is to sweeney

I wasn't sort of, I was.

Because it's ridiculous to think that because Sweeney was 5'10 ish a buck 85, that he "sees himself" or is going to give Gryz more of a chance than he has gotten. Gryz earned his opportunity last season, on his own merit, not because of some deep down feelings of closeness because of a relatively similar height or weight. This is a performance based business and if Gryz wasn't performing, he wouldn't of been there, regardless of how tall his GM was.

 

[DKH]

So Moore is not good according to the last 5 posters

I liked the signing so good to see how bad I missed in this

I’m open-minded on this so looking forward to seeing if you guys are right

I appreciate no waffling and taking a stand - bruins followers don’t seem to do that enough

 

[hoss75]

Didn't insult me at all. Stats are just another tool in looking at a player. There is no one stat that is the end all be all, if there was it would be the only stat used. The big thing with stats (as I'm sure you know) is taking them in the right context.

I imagine people that say stats aren't useful have a toolbox at home containing only a hammer, some duct tape, a few allen wrenches from assemble-yourself-furniture, and maybe an old can of WD-40.

 

[LouJersey]

I’ve seen a lot of Moore and I think he does very well here.

Second pair along side Carlo. 2nd pk abs spot 2pp duty. 18-20 minutes.

Bruins are a far deeper team forward wise.

Carlo a better partner than anyone on the Devils.

Bruins defense as a whole far better than the Devils. He will be going up against 2nd lines, not first

 

[TCB]

I’ve seen a lot of Moore and I think he does very well here.

Second pair along side Carlo. 2nd pk abs spot 2pp duty. 18-20 minutes.

Bruins are a far deeper team forward wise.

Carlo a better partner than anyone on the Devils.

Bruins defense as a whole far better than the Devils. He will be going up against 2nd lines, not first[/QUOTE]

Moore was 4th on the Devils in TOI among their D-man. He averaged 22 sec. a game on the PP which placed him 4th and 1.49 on the PK which placed him 5th on the devils. His ice time in the playoffs actually dropped in all situations.

I'm not knocking Moore and I stand by it being a good signing for the price an term in Today's NHL cap world. But those who are expecting Moore to play top 4 minutes on a healthy Bruins team, I feel are expecting way to much from him.

Not saying he couldn't fill in because he will get time there but I dont see him being better than Miller or Grizz and clearly Chara,Krug,McAvoy and Carlo are ahead of him.

 

[ORR2Sanderson2ORR]

Moore was 4th on the Devils in TOI among their D-man. He averaged 22 sec. a game on the PP which placed him 4th and 1.49 on the PK which placed him 5th on the devils. His ice time in the playoffs actually dropped in all situations.

I'm not knocking Moore and I stand by it being a good signing for the price an term in Today's NHL cap world. But those who are expecting Moore to play top 4 minutes on a healthy Bruins team, I feel are expecting way to much from him.

Not saying he couldn't fill in because he will get time there but I dont see him being better than Miller or Grizz and clearly Chara,Krug,McAvoy and Carlo are ahead of him.

With the Bruins not having a first round pick or making no-deals this Summer, Moore has become that present under the Christmas tree for some. You can't wait to open it but you'll quickly move on once you do.

 

[JOKER 192]

Well I guess someone should inform the NHL to stop tracking some of these then. No point in wasting resources tracking stats that the "stats community" doesn't take seriously.

Context is everything, one must consider many variables when looking at stats.

The NHL will always keep stats. Some read them and assume all stats are created equally and they are just not. What team you play for, who you play with, the quality of your goalie, injuries, misused players, players playing out of position just to name a few will influence stats for the better or worse. So stats are just one metric one can use to evaluate a player but it is not the be all end all of player evaluation IMO.

 

[ON3M4N]

Context is everything, one must consider many variables when looking at stats.

The NHL will always keep stats. Some read them and assume all stats are created equally and they are just not. What team you play for, who you play with, the quality of your goalie, injuries, misused players, players playing out of position just to name a few will influence stats for the better or worse. So stats are just one metric one can use to evaluate a player but it is not the be all end all of player evaluation IMO.

You know I was being sarcastic right? I even went in later to post that the key to stats is the context lol

 

[JOKER 192]

You know I was being sarcastic right? I even went in later to post that the key to stats is the context lol

No I didn't. I only read until the post I answered, had to pick up my son. Anyways, clearly we agree we even used the same terms. For sarcasm we usually add one of these

 

[LouJersey]

Moore was 4th on the Devils in TOI among their D-man. He averaged 22 sec. a game on the PP which placed him 4th and 1.49 on the PK which placed him 5th on the devils. His ice time in the playoffs actually dropped in all situations.

I'm not knocking Moore and I stand by it being a good signing for the price an term in Today's NHL cap world. But those who are expecting Moore to play top 4 minutes on a healthy Bruins team, I feel are expecting way to much from him.

Not saying he couldn't fill in because he will get time there but I dont see him being better than Miller or Grizz and clearly Chara,Krug,McAvoy and Carlo are ahead of him.

He’s a better player than Gryz, Kevan and McQuaid. By the end of the season he may even be better than Carlo.

I don’t base players solely on what they did or where they played on their prior teams. Under Cassidy/Dean I believe he will flourish and see a lot of ice time and do extremely well. His skill set translates to this system very well imo.

I bump Krug down to 3rd pair 5v5 in a heartbeat and scratch Gryz for now.

 

[DrJustice]

Lets just say the Bruins wanted to reunite Chara and Carlo as a true shutdown pairing. Carlo was much more productive with Chara than he was covering for Krug last season.

Chara-Carlo
Moore-McAvoy
Krug-Kevan

Alliteration all around

 

[JCRO]

Lets just say the Bruins wanted to reunite Chara and Carlo as a true shutdown pairing. Carlo was much more productive with Chara than he was covering for Krug last season.

Chara-Carlo
Moore-McAvoy
Krug-Kevan

Alliteration all around

I like this a lot.

Although I cant say Ive seen enough of Moore to comment on his top 4 play. But I definitely like Krug in that third pairing with Miller.