Player Discussion Joel Armia

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montreal

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Mar 21, 2002
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There's a reason for that. When i talk about huge progress i'm not talking about going from a 20 points player to a 40 points players because your TOI increased. That could be seen as huge progress but in reality the player went from an average 3rd line player to a middle six forward. He's still not someone who should rely on to win.

By huge progress i talk about LeClair type of progress after leaving Montreal or Martin St Louis. It rarely happen.

BTW i like Armia and i believe he can become a big 2nd line winger. But i'm not seeing much more in him. Kind of player you want to have to win but you got to have the Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuneztsov and Oshie to let him do his things outside of the spotlight as the 5th or 6th forward at best.

true it's rare to have a LeClair type where he doubles his production at age 26. Could Armia go from 29 pts to say around 5 pts in 2 years, clearly a lot would need to go right for him in terms of linemates, usage, team playing better/scoring more, staying healthy for all 82 games, etc... I don't even know him that well to see if he can even score 30 pts with us just that I see a skilled player that did the usual 3 years in the AHL (to which I'm a big fan of) then would have had a full year in the NHL at 23 but missed a big chunk to injury. So now you have a guy that plays his first full season at 24 and it's only really a year later then expected unless you are either really good or rushed.

Look at Pleks, did his 3 years in the AHL, at 24 he plays his 2nd full season and puts up 47 pts then breaks out with 69 pts at 25. Not saying this will happen with Armia cause I'm not sure he will get 2nd line ice time and wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being saddled with Pleks as his center which is going to put a major damper on his production if that's the case imo.
 

Hockeyisl1fe

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Dec 8, 2016
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Like some others have said, he has plenty of hidden offensive upside. Not sure if he ever fully capitalizes on it, but you never know. The problem so far has been his inconsistency, he can be the most dominant player on the ice on one game and completely dissappear the next game. Great addition nevertheless. Here is a good compilation showing his offensive capabilities, mute the "music" though
 

1909

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Jul 6, 2016
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Like some others have said, he has plenty of hidden offensive upside. Not sure if he ever fully capitalizes on it, but you never know. The problem so far has been his inconsistency, he can be the most dominant player on the ice on one game and completely dissappear the next game. Great addition nevertheless. Here is a good compilation showing his offensive capabilities, mute the "music" though


Maybe Habs should try to get Perreault too ???? We need centermen.

Brassard and Perreault would fill some holes up front while we are waiting for Poehling and Kotka.
 

calder candidate

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Maybe Habs should try to get Perreault too ???? We need centermen.

Brassard and Perreault would fill some holes up front while we are waiting for Poehling and Kotka.
Both of these guys would cost to much to acquire... If you’re just plugging hole it has to be with UFA, they don’t cost anything and we might be able to flip them at trade deadline. we already have plenty of guys.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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Both of these guys would cost to much to acquire... If you’re just plugging hole it has to be with UFA, they don’t cost anything and we might be able to flip them at trade deadline. we already have plenty of guys.

Isn't Brassard a cap dump for the Pens?

What about Byron for Brassad? Habs retain 50%. Thats probably more than 4 million cap savings for the Pens. And they still get a guy who can get 20G and 35-40 pts. Try and get a pick added in as well to make the deal.
 

groovejuice

Without deviation progress is not possible
Jun 27, 2011
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Another Jets fan coming to say enjoy Armia. He flashes brilliance but disappears as well. I think his game is still evolving but his bread and butter is possession. He is soooo good at getting the puck off of guys and keeping it. A hard guy to play against. But probably better suited to stay in the bottom 6. A loss for the Jets for sure but we have the depth to be able to lose an Armia right now. A nice addition for your team though. Wishing Joel and the Habs well! Oh, and don't expect much from his interviews. He was the quietest guy on the team by far!

Excellent! We need another surly, few words type to replace Markov!
 
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calder candidate

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Isn't Brassard a cap dump for the Pens?

What about Byron for Brassad? Habs retain 50%. Thats probably more than 4 million cap savings for the Pens. And they still get a guy who can get 20G and 35-40 pts. Try and get a pick added in as well to make the deal.

PIT don’t have any cap issue right now and brassard entering the last year of is contract... I don’t see PIT trading Brassard for Byron and even less them adding
 

rafalesque

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Apr 9, 2017
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I will go more on the managing aspect of this trade. I think it was one of the bright trade Bergy has done. Wether we like it or not, We have to rebuild from the top to bottom. Bergy missed his opportunity!

However, the best and quickest way is to use our salary space to eat some salaries and get draft picks in return and focus on our needs. That is how I see it.

Price, Weber have to go. Alzner too. rebuild a good core on defence. We need to stop crying about what our defence would have been without the previous trades.
 

Miller Time

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Sep 16, 2004
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he certainly is in a situation where he has a wide open door to establish himself as a top-6 player...

it sucks that we don't have any top-6 Centres for him to play with, but who knows, perhaps a line with Domi on the other side will do the trick.
 

beowulf

Not a nice guy.
Jan 29, 2005
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He played behind Wheeler& Laine in Winnipeg. He was in a defensive role.

Honestly people will complain about his offensive numbers around HF and keep ignoring everything else he does and brings to the table.
He's a depth guy quality teams should want.

I think that it has to do with where he was drafted, 16th overall in 2011, so people expect more offence right or wrong.
 

Laurentide

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Mar 24, 2018
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Another Jets fan coming to say enjoy Armia. He flashes brilliance but disappears as well. I think his game is still evolving but his bread and butter is possession. He is soooo good at getting the puck off of guys and keeping it. A hard guy to play against. But probably better suited to stay in the bottom 6. A loss for the Jets for sure but we have the depth to be able to lose an Armia right now. A nice addition for your team though. Wishing Joel and the Habs well! Oh, and don't expect much from his interviews. He was the quietest guy on the team by far!
That's what probably sealed the deal as far as Habs management was concerned. They loves them some quiet hockey players! If a deaf mute ever manages to somehow become a passably skilled hockey player the Habs will sign him to an 8 year contract sight unseen.
 

Andrei79

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Jan 25, 2013
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Just have to look at context, Armia played his first full season in the NHL at 24, had limited TOI, and is going to a crappy team where he should have a higher TOI and more opportunities while being only 25 so nothing says he can't get better.

He's a player who's playstyle fits fairly well with what Julien preaches. That's another reason why we could see some good things from him. Obviously, you never know, but since I watched about as many Jets games than Habs games last year (well, more including the POs), he's a guy I'm fairly happy to see we got for free.
 
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Andrei79

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true it's rare to have a LeClair type where he doubles his production at age 26. Could Armia go from 29 pts to say around 5 pts in 2 years, clearly a lot would need to go right for him in terms of linemates, usage, team playing better/scoring more, staying healthy for all 82 games, etc... I don't even know him that well to see if he can even score 30 pts with us just that I see a skilled player that did the usual 3 years in the AHL (to which I'm a big fan of) then would have had a full year in the NHL at 23 but missed a big chunk to injury. So now you have a guy that plays his first full season at 24 and it's only really a year later then expected unless you are either really good or rushed.

Look at Pleks, did his 3 years in the AHL, at 24 he plays his 2nd full season and puts up 47 pts then breaks out with 69 pts at 25. Not saying this will happen with Armia cause I'm not sure he will get 2nd line ice time and wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being saddled with Pleks as his center which is going to put a major damper on his production if that's the case imo.

I tend to agree with you here too.

Production v age studies are all nice and interesting, but the studies I've seen I couldn't find much in methodology or confounding variables.

As an example, we can for sure say that, from the data, forwards as a group peak between 22 and 25 and remain at 90% of their peak until their 30s.

Great... but what about those who don't ? Is age the only reason why ? I'm asking this because with time, injuries also take their toll. It's actually a pretty huge confounder: what impact do injuries have and which are most significant ? And if you control for the injuries, all included as well as only those with most impact, does the data remain the same ?

Then, you have different categories of players: 2nd rounders, late rounders, college players, european league players, 1st rounders, 1-2nd OA. We know the elite get better faster and remain so longer, but what of the other ones ? How do those who choose a different, longer path in the minors perform ? And does draft position affect it ?

We don't have much info there and we have less regarding if the changes in the last few years have skewed the numbers to the left since we keep saying the players are more ready younger... but what's the profile of those who aren't ?

That's why I tend not to take those numbers at face value on an individual basis, since we haven't tested their actual validity there. We still remain with our "clinical" opinion, meaning even with this data, I can't really say Armia's peaked. If anything, there's enough supporting (from advanced stats and usage, to european league production to improved yearly play) to reasonnably think that he hasn't as opposed to, say, an Andrew Shaw 2 years ago.
 

montreal

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Mar 21, 2002
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I tend to agree with you here too.

Production v age studies are all nice and interesting, but the studies I've seen I couldn't find much in methodology or confounding variables.

As an example, we can for sure say that, from the data, forwards as a group peak between 22 and 25 and remain at 90% of their peak until their 30s.

Great... but what about those who don't ? Is age the only reason why ? I'm asking this because with time, injuries also take their toll. It's actually a pretty huge confounder: what impact do injuries have and which are most significant ? And if you control for the injuries, all included as well as only those with most impact, does the data remain the same ?

Then, you have different categories of players: 2nd rounders, late rounders, college players, european league players, 1st rounders, 1-2nd OA. We know the elite get better faster and remain so longer, but what of the other ones ? How do those who choose a different, longer path in the minors perform ? And does draft position affect it ?

We don't have much info there and we have less regarding if the changes in the last few years have skewed the numbers to the left since we keep saying the players are more ready younger... but what's the profile of those who aren't ?

That's why I tend not to take those numbers at face value on an individual basis, since we haven't tested their actual validity there. We still remain with our "clinical" opinion, meaning even with this data, I can't really say Armia's peaked. If anything, there's enough supporting (from advanced stats and usage, to european league production to improved yearly play) to reasonnably think that he hasn't as opposed to, say, an Andrew Shaw 2 years ago.

i've never been a big stats guy, to me it's very hard to compare kids that were developed in the USHS/USHL then 2-3-4 years in the NCAA vs kids developed in the CHL to AHL for 2-3 years. The leagues in the US vary wildly depending on location so you get kids that are the big fish in a little pond vs kids that were say late bloomers physically so that they were overmatched at a younger age but now that they are more physically developed they show more. Of course it goes the opposite way with kids that were more physically developed and now that they face older players where they lose that advantage you see them struggle. There are just so many variables would be my point.
 

Fixxer

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Jul 28, 2016
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We already have Gallagher, Domi, Drouin, Lehkonen, Hudon, Scherbak, Byron, and Pacioretty on the wings. That's 8 wingers for 6 top 9 spots. With Armia it's 9. Three of them have to get traded. I suppose Drouin could still be at center and Pacioetty and Byron could be moved.
I've seen Hudon, Drouin (as usual) and even Byron play center, ... Andrew Shaw did it too although I can't comment because I have not seen him play there when he did. -- But honestly, I'm happy with Montreal ending up with Armia as Mason was bought out. There was cap space and a buyout it seems. Seems like a solid.. top 9 guy. We'll see how he develops, even though he is what 25... but he'll be fine!
And, someone may as well be moved as it was stated. Pacioretty with the rumors, the aborted trade, agent switch... whoa!!
 
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HOPE

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worst case scenario this guy is signed for cheap and ends up being a trade chip. wich we basicly got for free.
 

Catanddogguitarrr

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Jul 3, 2016
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I saw the video montage of his goals and I said wow ! But I have to remind this is his goals and is it 2 years montage or one year montage? Based on 82 games and average 16 minutes of ice time, it's not that impressive. I like his energy, his flair to go to the net, his size and how he celebrates after a goal. He seems to be a non natural skater, it's not fluid like elite players. He seems to almost lose puck when he dekes. So this is a 3rd or 4th line player kind of player. As long as he works hard, do some physical plays, good attitude and show up every game it's perfect for me. Maybe he's an hidden diamond, a much better player than Jets was thinking. MB did get some good players in the past like Weize, Danault and Byron but didn't in the last 2 years. I hope he did get a good one this time.
 

Et le But

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Armia reminds me of Kostitsyn a little, especially on the offensive end. Obviously a lot more engaged defensively though, so this isn't a bad thing.

At this point in his careers it's unlikely he will ever show the ability to put together what he sometimes capable of, but I'd rather have this kind of depth than some of the plugs we have previously played in the top 9.
 
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jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
Nov 18, 2007
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Like some others have said, he has plenty of hidden offensive upside. Not sure if he ever fully capitalizes on it, but you never know. The problem so far has been his inconsistency, he can be the most dominant player on the ice on one game and completely dissappear the next game. Great addition nevertheless. Here is a good compilation showing his offensive capabilities, mute the "music" though

Interesting song.....:laugh:

Man, he looks like a 40 goal scorer in that video....can dominate the boards.....this is a good pick up.

Armia
Lehkonen
Ikonen
Ylönen
Kotkaniemi

Soon we’ll be littered with Finns at forward......I actually like this :)
 

26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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Interesting song.....:laugh:

Man, he looks like a 40 goal scorer in that video....can dominate the boards.....this is a good pick up.

Armia
Lehkonen
Ikonen
Ylönen
Kotkaniemi

Soon we’ll be littered with Finns at forward......I actually like this :)

We hope. We can't count our chickens before they hatch.

So far, Lehkonen hasn't proven he can be more than a 3rd liner and Armia hasn't proved he can be a 4th liner. Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, and Ikonen haven't proven they can be NHLers.
 

Adam Michaels

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Jun 12, 2016
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We hope. We can't count our chickens before they hatch.

So far, Lehkonen hasn't proven he can be more than a 3rd liner and Armia hasn't proved he can be a 4th liner. Kotkaniemi, Ylonen, and Ikonen haven't proven they can be NHLers.

Lehkonen has proven to be a Top-6 player. He had 18 goals in his rookie season and had 4 points in 6 playoff games. And even though he was held back by injury last year, the rate he was scoring towards the end of the year, he was Top-6.

Armia last year was a 3rd line player in Winnipeg. So he has proven to be more than a 4th liner.

They both still have more to prove, for sure. But I think Lehkonen's done enough to prove he's more than a 3rd liner and Armia more than a 4th liner.
 
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