News Article: Joe Veleno
- Thread starter BinCookin
- Start date
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
- Jul 10, 2014
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I'm not accusing you specifically, but there's been a ton of micro analysis on Wings prospects this season. Somebody has a great 5-10 games, and they're the next Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr. Somebody has a rough stretch, and they're a bum.
Part of why I liked hearing Yzerman use the word patience so often is that it will take time to learn what each of these kids will become. Yes, the range of a top 5 pick is statistically much higher than a 3rd rounder, but each one still does have a range, and requires a certain amount of development.
(Again, not throwing this at your feet. Just using your post to bring up the topic.)
MintBerryCrunch
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BinCookin
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ricky0034
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- Jun 8, 2010
- 15,049
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I feel like a lot of that is just a natural result of people focusing on the prospects more because the team sucks
firestarter
Registered User
Veleno might play his last junior game today, so I'd like to put in my také for discussion and context.
Since he entered the league on a powerhouse Saint John team as the first player with exceptional status in the Q, he played his first season as a 15/16 y.o. guy in a league where most players are 18-20/21. The team was loaded with older talent, so he ended up playing mostly on the third line, scoring at a 0,7 p/g rate, while ranking 8th in team scoring, 10th in league rookie scoring and 3rd in league u17 scoring (behind only Comtois and Morand). Pretty impressive for the youngest player in the league.
In 2016/17 Saint John was the most dominant team in the Q (winning the regular season and sweeping 3 out of 4 playoff series, including the final series). Their roster was filled with older impact players, yet Veleno managed to put up a 0.89 p/g season at an age where most players just enter the league and get their feet wet. He ended up leading all u17 players in ppg and 4th among u18 players in ppg. He went into his draft season as the 4th highest ranked prospect.
We all know what went on during his draft season, playing on a team that lost all of its key players sans Joey V. It's interesting to compare his situation to that of Ty Dellandrea (who I hoped would be available for our second pick). One gets a ton of flack for not having enough points when playing on an offensively inept team, yet scoring at a ppg pace, the other is seen as a victim of playing on a bad team and a two-way force. Thankfully, this meant he could fall to our second pick (a player I was hoping we could draft with our first pick after his D-1 season).
To put things into perspective again, he ended his Q draft season ranked 2nd in ppg for draft eligible players with a 1.23 ppg ratio and 4th in u19 scoring.
Since moving to Drummondville, he played 117 games (RS+PO), scoring 179 points, for a 1.52 ppg pace in a large sample size, while also responding to questions about his goal scoring ability (although I still think his shot is not going to beat most NHL goaltenders without a lot of training).
After watching his shift-by-shift videos, I also don't understand the criticism about his low hockey IQ that was frequently thrown around. He looks like a great playmaker that can slow the pace of the game and find open lanes to set up his teammates. I think people get too hung up on the "low-ceiling/ high-floor","not gonna be more than a third liner in the NHL" and "safe pick" labels that also enabled us to snatch Larkin at 15.
As for his recent struggles, people that watch the games against Halifax mentioned that Veleno and Comtois are being hounded by Halifax players and it seems that it has worked for a few games.
TL;DR: Veleno has done what was expected of him at the junior level, but thankfully he fell to the Wings and now we can only hope that he can prove the naysayers wrong on his way to the NHL. I think we might have had a gem similar to the Larkin pick fall in our laps to counter the 3years of draft lottery misery.
Since he entered the league on a powerhouse Saint John team as the first player with exceptional status in the Q, he played his first season as a 15/16 y.o. guy in a league where most players are 18-20/21. The team was loaded with older talent, so he ended up playing mostly on the third line, scoring at a 0,7 p/g rate, while ranking 8th in team scoring, 10th in league rookie scoring and 3rd in league u17 scoring (behind only Comtois and Morand). Pretty impressive for the youngest player in the league.
In 2016/17 Saint John was the most dominant team in the Q (winning the regular season and sweeping 3 out of 4 playoff series, including the final series). Their roster was filled with older impact players, yet Veleno managed to put up a 0.89 p/g season at an age where most players just enter the league and get their feet wet. He ended up leading all u17 players in ppg and 4th among u18 players in ppg. He went into his draft season as the 4th highest ranked prospect.
We all know what went on during his draft season, playing on a team that lost all of its key players sans Joey V. It's interesting to compare his situation to that of Ty Dellandrea (who I hoped would be available for our second pick). One gets a ton of flack for not having enough points when playing on an offensively inept team, yet scoring at a ppg pace, the other is seen as a victim of playing on a bad team and a two-way force. Thankfully, this meant he could fall to our second pick (a player I was hoping we could draft with our first pick after his D-1 season).
To put things into perspective again, he ended his Q draft season ranked 2nd in ppg for draft eligible players with a 1.23 ppg ratio and 4th in u19 scoring.
Since moving to Drummondville, he played 117 games (RS+PO), scoring 179 points, for a 1.52 ppg pace in a large sample size, while also responding to questions about his goal scoring ability (although I still think his shot is not going to beat most NHL goaltenders without a lot of training).
After watching his shift-by-shift videos, I also don't understand the criticism about his low hockey IQ that was frequently thrown around. He looks like a great playmaker that can slow the pace of the game and find open lanes to set up his teammates. I think people get too hung up on the "low-ceiling/ high-floor","not gonna be more than a third liner in the NHL" and "safe pick" labels that also enabled us to snatch Larkin at 15.
As for his recent struggles, people that watch the games against Halifax mentioned that Veleno and Comtois are being hounded by Halifax players and it seems that it has worked for a few games.
TL;DR: Veleno has done what was expected of him at the junior level, but thankfully he fell to the Wings and now we can only hope that he can prove the naysayers wrong on his way to the NHL. I think we might have had a gem similar to the Larkin pick fall in our laps to counter the 3years of draft lottery misery.
firestarter
Registered User
Also found this on qmjhl french boards, courtesy of Google translate:
"No you are not alone. I heard about it at the arena and there are some rumors that he's playing hurt. Will probably be one of the players who will have rest this week."
This was posted before the first round against Gatineau
Edit for more info:
Veleno is clearly injured on the foot or leg. He came out when he was 2min and he grimaced and kicked his foot. He left with the therapist then. Ditto for Baker. Why bother to play them?
"No you are not alone. I heard about it at the arena and there are some rumors that he's playing hurt. Will probably be one of the players who will have rest this week."
This was posted before the first round against Gatineau
Edit for more info:
Veleno is clearly injured on the foot or leg. He came out when he was 2min and he grimaced and kicked his foot. He left with the therapist then. Ditto for Baker. Why bother to play them?
Last edited:
Christien
Registered User
- May 1, 2010
- 5,131
- 3,530
Not much time w/ the puck in the 1st for Veleno. Almost looks like he's playing wing?
McIsaac with some savvy plays.
McIsaac with some savvy plays.
I was going to say, we have done a great job collectively of driving the hype train on Veleno, but McIsaac has been absolutely phenomenal this year compared to what I was expecting. He deserves some love.
lhsgolf19
Registered User
Veleno's Junior Career comes to end... Heck of a season to finish it
Regular Season: 59 GP 42 G 62 A 104 PTS
Playoffs: 16 GP 8 G 9 A 17 PTS
Onto GR or the Wings!
Regular Season: 59 GP 42 G 62 A 104 PTS
Playoffs: 16 GP 8 G 9 A 17 PTS
Onto GR or the Wings!
Henkka
Registered User
I usually like to merge that playoff scoring with regular season.
75 games, 50 goals + 71 assists = 121 points (1.61 points per game)
Mantha at same age:
76 games, 55 goals + 46 assists = 101 points (1.33 ppg)
Sadly you've got the wrong year - you've looked at his draft year.
Mantha D+1 = 81 games, 81 goals + 77 assists = 158 points = 1.95 ppg
Mantha's D+1 year was ridiculously dominant.
ChadS
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2009
- 4,865
- 1,476
He was also a WJC all-star and lead team Canada in points. Just an awesome season overall for Mantha.
Henkka
Registered User
Mantha did all those as an older player.
I don't compare players with D+1 style, I count real aged. Mantha was most overaged player can be and had an advantage of it. Born 1 day after the draft cutting day (september 15th).
I don't compare players with D+1 style, I count real aged. Mantha was most overaged player can be and had an advantage of it. Born 1 day after the draft cutting day (september 15th).
Last edited:
You can call it the main point of your comparison, but it might not be the best comparison to make. The only difference between the two is the timing of their birthdays. Mantha was born in September, which makes him and early birthday for his draft year and he turned 17, 18, 19 prior to his season beginning, whereas Veleno is a January birthday, meaning he turned 17, 18, 19 in the middle of his season. Realistically, Mantha was only like 4 months older than Veleno in each respective year, which is closer to being the same age than it is being a year apart.
Mantha's Q career spanned:
D-1: 2011-12 @ 17 years old (0.82 ppg)
D: 2012-13 @ 18 years old (1.33 ppg)
D+1: 2013-14 @ 19 years old (1.95 ppg)
Veleno's Q career spanned:
D-2: 2015-16 @ 15-16 years old (0.63 ppg)
D-1: 2016-17 @ 16-17 years old (0.81 ppg)
D: 2017-18 @ 17-18 years old (1.22 ppg)
D+1: 2018-19 @ 18-19 years old (1.61 ppg)
Considering the age difference is negligible, the two players' careers are actually pretty comparable in the Q. D-1 both were just over 0.80 ppg, their draft years were separated by 0.10 point per game (keep in mind Veleno had half a year spent on a miserable team that likely suppressed his numbers), and then their is a bit of disparity in the D+1 seasons. I think the big point of conversation coming from comparing their D+1 year is that Mantha was labeled from the beginning as an all offense type of prospect with the potential to be an elite goal scoring power winger, but with some questions about the drive and completeness of his game. Veleno doesn't have those questions; we know now that he takes a great deal of pride in being a complete player. He is very driven to be a 200 foot player aware of his responsibilities as a center, and that is where he has talked about a majority of his focus having been placed this year. The fact that he also put up 121 points in 75 games (including playoffs) should be taken as a major win for him first and foremost, but the Wings as well.
That season was absolutely ridiculous by Mantha. 81 in 81... are you kidding me??
newfy
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2010
- 14,771
- 8,327
Context is pretty important for people looking at numbers too. Veleno still led an absolutely stacked Q team in playoff scoring. Yes his points per game went down but he still led a team with some very good hockey players on it. I think he gets a long look in camp next year for a roster spot but is sent down in the end.
Too many other guys that should make the team hopefully like Svechnikov, Zadina, Rasmussen and even a guy like Givani Smith if we're talking a winger spot in the bottom 6. I tihnk of that group, Zadina and Svechnikov ultimately make it with Rasmussen getting about 50 nhl games/30AHL games as a first call up. A fourth liner goes down dont be surprised to see Smith get the call before Veleno either
Too many other guys that should make the team hopefully like Svechnikov, Zadina, Rasmussen and even a guy like Givani Smith if we're talking a winger spot in the bottom 6. I tihnk of that group, Zadina and Svechnikov ultimately make it with Rasmussen getting about 50 nhl games/30AHL games as a first call up. A fourth liner goes down dont be surprised to see Smith get the call before Veleno either
obey86
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- Jun 9, 2009
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Larkin2AA
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