Joe Thornton all time leaders watch.

[Sideshow Raheem]

Gee that's like saying "I knew water was wet therefore I'm right"

Sure, if the majority of this board hadn't been united against me in saying water is not wet...

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. My record on everything from Stalock being an ECHL-caliber goalie to calling the Polak/Spaling trade being a disaster the day it was made to saying the Boedker signing was terrible has always proven me right in the end. When it comes to the Sharks, I am simply never wrong.

What exactly is the supporting evidence for Thornton looks done? You want to say you're never wrong but you're not exactly giving any real evidence for that claim.

 

[weastern bias]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. My record on everything from Stalock being an ECHL-caliber goalie to calling the Polak/Spaling trade being a disaster the day it was made to saying the Boedker signing was terrible has always proven me right in the end. When it comes to the Sharks, I am simply never wrong.

Everybody is wrong on these boards sometimes, including discussions about the Sharks, including you, no one here is infallible

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

What exactly is the supporting evidence for Thornton looks done? You want to say you're never wrong but you're not exactly giving any real evidence for that claim.

His 5v5 points per 60 rate is less than half what it was last year. His team-relative Fenwick For% is less than a quarter of what it was last year. He has quite literally been a fraction as good as he was last season at even strength.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. My record on everything from Stalock being an ECHL-caliber goalie to calling the Polak/Spaling trade being a disaster the day it was made to saying the Boedker signing was terrible has always proven me right in the end. When it comes to the Sharks, I am simply never wrong.

Stalock was playing like an ECHL caliber goaltender when you joined. Unless you have an alternate alias you aren't telling us about?

Also, lol at the last sentence. Everyone is wrong.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

When it comes to the Sharks, I am simply never wrong.

His team-relative Fenwick For% is less than a quarter of what it was last year.

2.1 is less than a quarter of 8.0?

 

[sjsharks92]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. My record on everything from Stalock being an ECHL-caliber goalie to calling the Polak/Spaling trade being a disaster the day it was made to saying the Boedker signing was terrible has always proven me right in the end. When it comes to the Sharks, I am simply never wrong.

You're clearly too far gone at this point. Used to think your posts were insightful at times when you'd play devil's advocate.

 

[Barrie22]

25 games into the season last year anybody want to guess how many points thornton had at that point?

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

2.1 is less than a quarter of 8.0?

According to his player page on stats.hockeyanalysis.com, Thornton has a 54.4% FF on the ice and the Sharks have a 52.4% FF with him off the ice this season (+2.0%). Last year, those numbers were 57.9% and 49.8% respectively (+8.1%). And, yes, 2.0 is less than a quarter of 8.1. Nice try though.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

His 5v5 points per 60 rate is less than half what it was last year. His team-relative Fenwick For% is less than a quarter of what it was last year. He has quite literally been a fraction as good as he was last season at even strength.

Given that Thornton relies on others to bury their opportunities for him to produce and that hasn't occurred, laying that at Thornton's feet is kind of weak. And when you say he's quite literally been a fraction as good as he was last season, that is quite literally true of everyone. Everyone is a fraction as good as they were last season in any situation. That's not a real point to make. People who are better than last year are still a fraction of what they were...it's just that that fraction is let's say 5/4th's of what they were. That is honestly a dumb statement to make especially with the word literally involved. lol

 

[Barrie22]

According to his player page on stats.hockeyanalysis.com, Thornton has a 54.4% FF on the ice and the Sharks have a 52.4% FF with him off the ice this season (+2.0%). Last year, those numbers were 57.9% and 49.8% respectively (+8.1%). And, yes, 2.0 is less than a quarter of 8.1. Nice try though.

Wait so that 8.0 or 2.1 whatever they are doesn't even really have anything to do with thornton. Considering thornton is just a slightly worse this year then he was last year when he is on the ice. But the other 17 players have gotten better without him on the ice so it means thornton is bad ? Lol

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Given that Thornton relies on others to bury their opportunities for him to produce and that hasn't occurred, laying that at Thornton's feet is kind of weak. And when you say he's quite literally been a fraction as good as he was last season, that is quite literally true of everyone. Everyone is a fraction as good as they were last season in any situation. That's not a real point to make. People who are better than last year are still a fraction of what they were...it's just that that fraction is let's say 5/4th's of what they were. That is honestly a dumb statement to make especially with the word literally involved. lol

If you want to rest on a silly semantic argument when everyone knows what the turn of phrase "a fraction of" generally refers to, be my guest. Blaming Thornton's linemates makes no sense. Pavelski has been mostly fine and is on pace for nearly as many points as he scored last season. Hertl and Marleau have been great on that line as well. Thornton's passes simply aren't clicking nearly as much as they were last year and he isn't nearly as dominant of a possession player.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If you want to rest on a silly semantic argument when everyone knows what the turn of phrase "a fraction of" generally refers to, be my guest. Blaming Thornton's linemates makes no sense. Pavelski has been mostly fine and is on pace for nearly as many points as he scored last season. Hertl and Marleau have been great on that line as well. Thornton's passes simply aren't clicking nearly as much as they were last year and he isn't nearly as dominant of a possession player.

I will use that argument and it's not silly. If you want to make a point and not have your credibility questioned because you said the wrong things, you should probably avoid saying the wrong things especially when you want to try and say it with such definitive language. If you're smart enough to think your opinion is right all the time you should be smart enough to use the correct language to articulate that point otherwise your credibility is damaged. And saying that his passes aren't clicking nearly as much is arguably as much a fault of the receiver as it is the passer so you're not actually making the point you think you are. Thornton has been fine as a player to those who watch him. Not as good as last year is probably fair but saying that he's done is something completely different and not founded in any numbers that you've stated so far. Him not being as good as last year does not mean that he's done. That's just stupid.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

According to his player page on stats.hockeyanalysis.com, Thornton has a 54.4% FF on the ice and the Sharks have a 52.4% FF with him off the ice this season (+2.0%). Last year, those numbers were 57.9% and 49.8% respectively (+8.1%). And, yes, 2.0 is less than a quarter of 8.1. Nice try though.

According to the same site, Jumbo has a 2.1 FF%RelTM this year and an 8.0 FF%RelTM last year. And it explicitly states it here.

2016-2017: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...id=25&type=fenwick&sort=PCTRelTM&sortdir=DESC
2015-2016: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...id=25&type=fenwick&sort=PCTRelTM&sortdir=DESC

Nice try though.

 

[Jwec]

25 games into the season last year anybody want to guess how many points thornton had at that point?

What a coincidence. He had 15 points! Same amount what he has now! And yet Raheem say that he is done when he clearly isn't.

According to his player page on stats.hockeyanalysis.com, Thornton has a 54.4% FF on the ice and the Sharks have a 52.4% FF with him off the ice this season (+2.0%). Last year, those numbers were 57.9% and 49.8% respectively (+8.1%). And, yes, 2.0 is less than a quarter of 8.1. Nice try though.

So because our other players has been better at that stat than last year it makes Thornton who still has great stats bad?

 

[weastern bias]

Thornton has been fine as a player to those who watch him. Not as good as last year is probably fair but saying that he's done is something completely different and not founded in any numbers that you've stated so far. Him not being as good as last year does not mean that he's done.

I think this is a fair assessment of Jumbo

He's clearly been on a slow decline for the past few years, and he's probably a little worse worse off this year than last so far, but to call him "done" is just hyperbole

He's still a bona-fide #1C, and would be the best center on most teams in the league

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

According to the same site, Jumbo has a 2.1 FF%RelTM this year and an 8.0 FF%RelTM last year. And it explicitly states it here.

2016-2017: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...id=25&type=fenwick&sort=PCTRelTM&sortdir=DESC
2015-2016: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...id=25&type=fenwick&sort=PCTRelTM&sortdir=DESC

Nice try though.

And yet the actual, exact numbers are 2% and 8.1%.

What a coincidence. He had 15 points! Same amount what he has now! And yet Raheem say that he is done when he clearly isn't.



So because our other players has been better at that stat than last year it makes Thornton who still has great stats bad? He might not be as dominant than last year but he is far away from done.

Thornton played through a concussion for two months early last season. Pointing out that he has the same numbers now as he did when he was playing with the after-effects of a concussion isn't making the point you think it's making.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It also doesn't make the point that he's done either.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

And yet the actual, exact numbers are 2% and 8.1%.

You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true.

The truth is that the website seems to be making an error when supporting or displaying stats. This allows both of our numbers to be backed up by the site on different pages. I guess we'll never know which numbers are the real ones.

It all depends on the source really. corsica lists his FF%RelTM as 2.82% this year and 7.32% last year.

 

[Jwec]

And yet the actual, exact numbers are 2% and 8.1%.



Thornton played through a concussion for two months early last season. Pointing out that he has the same numbers now as he did when he was playing with the after-effects of a concussion isn't making the point you think it's making.

Yeah he probably was concussed but still it doesn't mean he can't improve like he did last year. He has played with players who doesn't fit on his line very well (Boedker, Ward) and he has had quite good possession stats. It is possible that he isn't as great as he was last season but still he is far from done.

Also is Kopitar done because he hasn't had good start? Is Bergeron done because he has had awful start? Is Toews done? No. Any player can have slow starts. Even Crosby had very slow start last season.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Yeah he probably was concussed but still it doesn't mean he can't improve like he did last year. He has played with players who doesn't fit on his line very well (Boedker, Ward) and he has had quite good possession stats. It is possible that he isn't as great as he was last season but still he is far from done.

Also is Kopitar done because he hasn't had good start? Is Bergeron done because he has had awful start? Is Toews done? No. Any player can have slow starts. Even Crosby had very slow start last season.

The difference is Thornton is 37 years old and it's reasonable for him to have finally started to decline. It's amazing he held up for as long as he did.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The difference is Thornton is 37 years old and it's reasonable for him to have finally started to decline. It's amazing he held up for as long as he did.

You still haven't shown anything that is evidence of him being done.

 

[Alwalys]

The eye and advanced metrics tests do not bear out a major decline. He is playing like ... jumbo. dominating the puck and setting up chances. His line has been less effective without Hertl on it, and more effective with Marleau on it.

The entire team is struggling to score, and looking leaguewide a lot of strong 2-way players are having down scoring years so far.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

You still haven't shown anything that is evidence of him being done.

He's never wrong. There's your evidence.

 

[hohosaregood]

The eye and advanced metrics tests do not bear out a major decline. He is playing like ... jumbo. dominating the puck and setting up chances. His line has been less effective without Hertl on it, and more effective with Marleau on it.

The entire team is struggling to score, and looking leaguewide a lot of strong 2-way players are having down scoring years so far.

He's playing kinda Dumbo though. I wouldn't really say they're the best line in the NHL like they were last year but still pretty good.