Joe Thornton all time leaders watch.

do0glas

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Jan 26, 2012
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He's playing kinda Dumbo though. I wouldn't really say they're the best line in the NHL like they were last year but still pretty good.

The issue is that there is a clear difference in saying someone is done versus declining. He knows that. He baited his hook well. I'll give him that.
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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You still haven't shown anything that is evidence of him being done.

The fact that he's scoring at a 4th line level at 5v5 so far seems pretty compelling to me. Again, his 5v5 scoring rate is less than half what it was last season. It's the same rate as what David Jones, Emerson Etem, Jake Virtanen and Zack Kassian put up last year - three guys who are out of the NHL and a fourth liner. I expect that he'll rebound a bit but that's still extremely concerning and squares with what I've seen from him on the ice this year. Even when Jumbo was a point per game over the first five games or so he looked considerably worse than last season and that has continued while the production has dropped off entirely. Ultimately, even if Thornton rebounds, I'm fairly confident he's done being a legit #1 center and let's face it - no matter how good our depth is we're not gonna win the Cup without a #1 center. Sad, but true.
 

hohosaregood

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The issue is that there is a clear difference in saying someone is done versus declining. He knows that. He baited his hook well. I'll give him that.

Yea...this must be how PF felt when we(some people) were saying Marleau might be done last year.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
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The fact that he's scoring at a 4th line level at 5v5 so far seems pretty compelling to me. Again, his 5v5 scoring rate is less than half what it was last season. It's the same rate as what David Jones, Emerson Etem, Jake Virtanen and Zack Kassian put up last year - three guys who are out of the NHL and a fourth liner. I expect that he'll rebound a bit but that's still extremely concerning and squares with what I've seen from him on the ice this year. Even when Jumbo was a point per game over the first five games or so he looked considerably worse than last season and that has continued while the production has dropped off entirely. Ultimately, even if Thornton rebounds, I'm fairly confident he's done being a legit #1 center and let's face it - no matter how good our depth is we're not gonna win the Cup without a #1 center. Sad, but true.

Even strength production struggles is all you got to show that he's done. I mean, the kind of evidence that is ridiculous that shows otherwise in other areas don't exactly bring you to the conclusion that you're wrong? How is his possession numbers? How is his production in other situations? How is he doing when it comes to the defensive side of things? I mean, if all you got is 5v5 scoring rate after 25 games to come to the conclusion that he's done as a player or done as a #1 center, your claim is weak and your supporting evidence is also weak. And if guys like Pavelski is fine with just five more points at evens than Thornton, I'm confident that Thornton will find his way considering every other part to his game is fine for his level...much less done as a freaking NHL'er. The fact that you're actually trying to defend that ridiculously outlandish statement with just one little piece of evidence is just atrocious arguing. That's what is sad but true.
 

do0glas

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Even strength production struggles is all you got to show that he's done. I mean, the kind of evidence that is ridiculous that shows otherwise in other areas don't exactly bring you to the conclusion that you're wrong? How is his possession numbers? How is his production in other situations? How is he doing when it comes to the defensive side of things? I mean, if all you got is 5v5 scoring rate after 25 games to come to the conclusion that he's done as a player or done as a #1 center, your claim is weak and your supporting evidence is also weak. And if guys like Pavelski is fine with just five more points at evens than Thornton, I'm confident that Thornton will find his way considering every other part to his game is fine for his level...much less done as a freaking NHL'er. The fact that you're actually trying to defend that ridiculously outlandish statement with just one little piece of evidence is just atrocious arguing. That's what is sad but true.

Jumbo and toews aren't separated by more than .05 p/60 5v5. Toews is elite! But jumbo is done.

He uses names like jones and etem but leaves out giroux, Johansen, kopitar, toews, drouin etc.
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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Even strength production struggles is all you got to show that he's done. I mean, the kind of evidence that is ridiculous that shows otherwise in other areas don't exactly bring you to the conclusion that you're wrong? How is his possession numbers? How is his production in other situations? How is he doing when it comes to the defensive side of things? I mean, if all you got is 5v5 scoring rate after 25 games to come to the conclusion that he's done as a player or done as a #1 center, your claim is weak and your supporting evidence is also weak. And if guys like Pavelski is fine with just five more points at evens than Thornton, I'm confident that Thornton will find his way considering every other part to his game is fine for his level...much less done as a freaking NHL'er. The fact that you're actually trying to defend that ridiculously outlandish statement with just one little piece of evidence is just atrocious arguing. That's what is sad but true.

Even-strength scoring is the single most important measure of a scoring forward's effectiveness. But like I said earlier his team-relative possession numbers are incredibly worse than they were last year and even his raw possession numbers are 3.5 percentage points worse, which is one of the greatest year-over-year drop offs of any NHL forward this season. His power play production is also nearly 2 points per 60 minutes worse than it was last year. To put his overall production into perspective - Thornton's scoring rate on the power play this year is barely better than his scoring rate at even strength was last year. That is just a shocking decline in effectiveness on the PP, which has always been his bread and butter.

So to sum everything up, Thornton is scoring at even-strength like a fourth liner, he's scoring on the power play at the same rate a good player would score at even-strength and he is far less dominant in puck possession (especially relative to this teammates but even in terms of raw performance) than he was last year. I don't know what else there is to evaluate a hockey player by, especially as it pertains to Thornton's role on the team.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Even-strength scoring is the single most important measure of a scoring forward's effectiveness. But like I said earlier his team-relative possession numbers are incredibly worse than they were last year and even his raw possession numbers are 3.5 percentage points worse, which is one of the greatest year-over-year drop offs of any NHL forward this season. His power play production is also nearly 2 points per 60 minutes worse than it was last year. To put his overall production into perspective - Thornton's scoring rate on the power play this year is barely better than his scoring rate at even strength was last year. That is just a shocking decline in effectiveness on the PP, which has always been his bread and butter.

So to sum everything up, Thornton is scoring at even-strength like a fourth liner, he's scoring on the power play at the same rate a good player would score at even-strength and he is far less dominant in puck possession (especially relative to this teammates but even in terms of raw performance) than he was last year. I don't know what else there is to evaluate a hockey player by, especially as it pertains to Thornton's role on the team.

Yet it's still just 25 games. It's still just 5 points off from what you deem as fine with Pavs. Your argument possession wise is weak because it's not being compared to the league. Your comparison is his relative to the team side when the team improved possession-wise at the depth levels. His drop-off in possession as an individual relative to the league is still pretty high up there so even if it's not as dominant relative to his team, it's still at a high level much less above the level you would deem appropriate for someone done as an NHL'er. Same for his power play numbers. Same for his defensive side. Same for his faceoffs. The entire team's offense is down and some of that is definitely Jumbo but a lot more of it is the team in general as well. When the team picks it up, he'll be fine when it comes to production.

But all you've brought up is fine to criticize Thornton as being worse than last year. None of this...repeat...none of this is good enough to say that he's done as a player. So you're still wrong to say he's done as a player.
 

Barrie22

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Aug 11, 2009
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Yet it's still just 25 games. It's still just 5 points off from what you deem as fine with Pavs. Your argument possession wise is weak because it's not being compared to the league. Your comparison is his relative to the team side when the team improved possession-wise at the depth levels. His drop-off in possession as an individual relative to the league is still pretty high up there so even if it's not as dominant relative to his team, it's still at a high level much less above the level you would deem appropriate for someone done as an NHL'er. Same for his power play numbers. Same for his defensive side. Same for his faceoffs. The entire team's offense is down and some of that is definitely Jumbo but a lot more of it is the team in general as well. When the team picks it up, he'll be fine when it comes to production.

But all you've brought up is fine to criticize Thornton as being worse than last year. None of this...repeat...none of this is good enough to say that he's done as a player. So you're still wrong to say he's done as a player.

And his possession numbers are 1.49% off what he posted last season.
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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Yet it's still just 25 games. It's still just 5 points off from what you deem as fine with Pavs. Your argument possession wise is weak because it's not being compared to the league. Your comparison is his relative to the team side when the team improved possession-wise at the depth levels. His drop-off in possession as an individual relative to the league is still pretty high up there so even if it's not as dominant relative to his team, it's still at a high level much less above the level you would deem appropriate for someone done as an NHL'er. Same for his power play numbers. Same for his defensive side. Same for his faceoffs. The entire team's offense is down and some of that is definitely Jumbo but a lot more of it is the team in general as well. When the team picks it up, he'll be fine when it comes to production.

But all you've brought up is fine to criticize Thornton as being worse than last year. None of this...repeat...none of this is good enough to say that he's done as a player. So you're still wrong to say he's done as a player.

You realize that when I say he's "done" I don't mean he's AHL-caliber or something, right? He's done as being the player we know and can rely upon as Joe Thornton, one of the best centers in the league. And he's likely done as a legit 1C, period. Which is a very bad thing as it pertains to our prospects of going far in the playoffs!

As for Pavelski, on a per 60 minutes basis at 5v5 he has dropped from 2.07 to 1.74 which is perfectly reasonable considering Thornton's massive drop off and how much Pavelski relies on Thornton for offense. I honestly don't expect much out of Pavelski if Thornton isn't at the top of his game: he's entirely a product of Jumbo and has never been (and never will be) nearly as good of a player. I am absolutely not hating on Thornton, he's always been my favorite player and it saddens me to see him on the downswing.
 

Pinkfloyd

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You realize that when I say he's "done" I don't mean he's AHL-caliber or something, right? He's done as being the player we know and can rely upon as Joe Thornton, one of the best centers in the league. And he's likely done as a legit 1C, period. Which is a very bad thing as it pertains to our prospects of going far in the playoffs!

As for Pavelski, on a per 60 minutes basis at 5v5 he has dropped from 2.07 to 1.74 which is perfectly reasonable considering Thornton's massive drop off and how much Pavelski relies on Thornton for offense. I honestly don't expect much out of Pavelski if Thornton isn't at the top of his game: he's entirely a product of Jumbo and has never been (and never will be) nearly as good of a player. I am absolutely not hating on Thornton, he's always been my favorite player and it saddens me to see him on the downswing.

Yeah, that's hogwash. When you brought up names of 4th liners and those out of the league when using the whole even strength production angle, I have a hard time believing that you honestly thought that the whole time. It's only now when your arguments were shown to be the embarrassment they were that you're saying it like that.

However, even with that new goal post being made, those numbers don't exactly show that entirely. Even strength production is certainly down but his possession numbers are still at a high level and everything else in his game is still at a pretty damn good level to make me believe that it could just very well be a prolonged slump which does happen on occasion.

And really, you don't give a crap in this context about Thornton or anyone really on the team. You only care about trying to prove yourself correct when you make even the dumbest of claims.
 

weastern bias

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Feb 3, 2012
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Couture is also a serviceable 1C, Center is probably the last position the Sharks need to worry about right now
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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Yeah, that's hogwash. When you brought up names of 4th liners and those out of the league when using the whole even strength production angle, I have a hard time believing that you honestly thought that the whole time. It's only now when your arguments were shown to be the embarrassment they were that you're saying it like that.

However, even with that new goal post being made, those numbers don't exactly show that entirely. Even strength production is certainly down but his possession numbers are still at a high level and everything else in his game is still at a pretty damn good level to make me believe that it could just very well be a prolonged slump which does happen on occasion.

And really, you don't give a crap in this context about Thornton or anyone really on the team. You only care about trying to prove yourself correct when you make even the dumbest of claims.

If I seriously believed Thornton was "done" as in no longer NHL-caliber I would probably be advocating for him to be moved down to the fourth line or something. I've never once even suggested he should be playing any lower than the 1st. This has always been about him no longer being able to hack it in that specific role (and to a lesser extent the Sharks not having anyone else who can do a better job as the 1C).

I do care about Thornton and the team. Being proven right is just something that comes naturally to me, along the way. Say, how's Alex Stalock doing these days?
 

CrypTic

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Oct 2, 2013
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I interpreted SR's original comment as "Thornton is done as an elite 1C". I was surprised by "this proves you're a hater" type responses and thought that they were failures to read in context. But then SR said that he's never wrong so his side went off the rails for me. Everyone's wrong sometimes. Only total narcissists think that they're never wrong and it's not worth arguing with them (whether to support or oppose them).
 

Pinkfloyd

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If I seriously believed Thornton was "done" as in no longer NHL-caliber I would probably be advocating for him to be moved down to the fourth line or something. I've never once even suggested he should be playing any lower than the 1st. This has always been about him no longer being able to hack it in that specific role (and to a lesser extent the Sharks not having anyone else who can do a better job as the 1C).

I do care about Thornton and the team. Being proven right is just something that comes naturally to me, along the way. Say, how's Alex Stalock doing these days?

You still made the implication either way. It doesn't even matter anyway which argument you want to make, you're not right either way. haha The fact that you're so willing to make such claims, serious or half-jokingly or not, after 25 games and some even strength production struggles doesn't suggest that he's no longer able to hack it in the role.

But it's whatever...you've already proven wrong on this either way so that nonsense about being proven right is meh. You wanting to bring up Stalock is hilarious. Do you even know what it is I was saying with regards to Stalock? I sincerely doubt that you do. lol
 

Sideshow Raheem

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Dec 22, 2015
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You still made the implication either way. It doesn't even matter anyway which argument you want to make, you're not right either way. haha The fact that you're so willing to make such claims, serious or half-jokingly or not, after 25 games and some even strength production struggles doesn't suggest that he's no longer able to hack it in the role.

But it's whatever...you've already proven wrong on this either way so that nonsense about being proven right is meh. You wanting to bring up Stalock is hilarious. Do you even know what it is I was saying with regards to Stalock? I sincerely doubt that you do. lol

No reasonable person could read what I wrote and conclude I was seriously suggesting Thornton is no longer a NHL player. That would be insane. I've presented a pretty compelling statistical argument that he is certainly no longer producing like a legit #1 center and his possession numbers, while still good, fall far below his usual standards and are substantially worse than they were last season.

You said Stalock was a better goalie than Martin Jones and basically every goal he allowed was the defense's fault or a lucky bounce or some form of divine intervention. You also said the trade to replace him with Reimer was totally unnecessary even though Stalock had nearly jeopardized our season with his play in the first half and we were doing better in the second half in large part because DeBoer simply didn't trust Stalock enough to play him anymore.
 

CrypTic

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Oct 2, 2013
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You still made the implication either way. It doesn't even matter anyway which argument you want to make, you're not right either way. haha The fact that you're so willing to make such claims, serious or half-jokingly or not, after 25 games and some even strength production struggles doesn't suggest that he's no longer able to hack it in the role.

But it's whatever...you've already proven wrong on this either way so that nonsense about being proven right is meh. You wanting to bring up Stalock is hilarious. Do you even know what it is I was saying with regards to Stalock? I sincerely doubt that you do. lol

Getting back to something that I think is debatable: How concerned are we/should we be about Jumbo's drop off in production and possession? He has had slow starts before and also other periods where he slumps. This may be one of those. But IMO it is concerning. Going back to 2014-15 (which was on off season for him), 5x5 he had 31 points/78 games played = 0.397 P/G. This season, he has 7/25 = 0.28.

He has two points in his last five games and one of those was on a power play. I think that some of the problem is the long season last year plus the World Cup. He didn't play well in the shortened season and ppl speculated that him playing in Europe + the shortened season was a problem not just for him but for several other older players. By the eye test, he looks much better when playing with Hertl or Marleau but he hasn't put up points with Marleau. I think that will probably turn around but any ideas about why he's still not putting up points?
 
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hohosaregood

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Getting back to something that I think is debatable: How concerned are we/should we be about Jumbo's drop off in production and possession? He has had slow starts before and also other periods where he slumps. This may be one of those. But IMO it is concerning. Going back to 2014-15 (which was on off season for him), 5x5 he had 31 points/78 games played = 0.397 P/G. This season, he has 7/25 = 0.28.

He has two points in his last five games and one of those was on a power play. I think that some of the problem is the long season last year plus the World Cup. He didn't play well in the shortened season and ppl speculated that him playing in Europe + the shortened season was a problem not just for him but for several other older players. By the eye test, he looks much better when playing with Hertl or Marleau but he hasn't put up points with Marleau. I think that will probably turn around but any ideas about why he's still not putting up points?

I don't think I'd be too concerned because usually, a player doesn't lose the vision and IQ and I thinkthat's more of the issue right now. He's making a lot of dumb plays that would be atypical of Thorntonesque decisions.

I guess there's a case to be made that his board work or puck handling's not as good but I'm not so sure about that one.
 

Pinkfloyd

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No reasonable person could read what I wrote and conclude I was seriously suggesting Thornton is no longer a NHL player. That would be insane. I've presented a pretty compelling statistical argument that he is certainly no longer producing like a legit #1 center and his possession numbers, while still good, fall far below his usual standards and are substantially worse than they were last season.

You said Stalock was a better goalie than Martin Jones and basically every goal he allowed was the defense's fault or a lucky bounce or some form of divine intervention. You also said the trade to replace him with Reimer was totally unnecessary even though Stalock had nearly jeopardized our season with his play in the first half and we were doing better in the second half in large part because DeBoer simply didn't trust Stalock enough to play him anymore.

No you haven't presented compelling evidence to suggest that he's no longer a top line center. You've pointed to a 25 game sample and drawn your own conclusions. Him not being the possession monster that he was last year doesn't mean he's still not top line quality. There's a difference.

As for Stalock, you've proven that you don't know what it was I said at all. Didn't say Stalock was better than Jones. Didn't say it was any of that for basically every goal. I was right that the Reimer acquisition was unnecessary because Reimer's games and wins meant literally nothing to their playoff positioning. They were never in jeopardy for their season last year because of Stalock even with him not performing well.
 

CrypTic

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Oct 2, 2013
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I don't think I'd be too concerned because usually, a player doesn't lose the vision and IQ and I thinkthat's more of the issue right now. He's making a lot of dumb plays that would be atypical of Thorntonesque decisions.

I guess there's a case to be made that his board work or puck handling's not as good but I'm not so sure about that one.

I agree that's been a problem this season. That's puzzling to me bc, as you said, that usually isn't what falls off quickly. But, whatever the reason, it seems to be worse this season. That's why I have a hard time saying the fall off is due to bad luck. Some of it is, e.g., things like Dillon being offside on what would have otherwise been a Marleau goal should even out over the season. But he has been making a lot of dumb plays so I'm hesitant to think that's going to even out with a larger sample size. Maybe I'm getting more used to it but it seems like the dumb plays were more frequent earlier in the season. Other than a health problem (e.g., literally poorer vision or some kind of imbalance that makes his thinking fuzzy), I don't know what it could be. Your reaction time slows down with age so maybe that's part of it. If so, he should be able to partially compensate once he gets used to it.
 

Hold the Pickles

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Using hyperbole to be able to adjust your meaning later is just wrong. Try to say what you mean, hyperbole is not your friend.

Scott Hannan was done and thus retired, Joe Thornton has declined, but is far from done. If he had declined to the suggested point, he'd be drawing 3rd pairing D match-ups.
 

OrrNumber4

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Jul 25, 2002
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People thought Marleau was done in 2008, when there was every statistical reason to think so. People have said Thornton was done in 2015, when there were some statistical reasons to think so.

People have said the same about Havlat, Heatley, Clowe, Boyle, Setoguchi, Roenick, Stuart, Suter, White, Murray...

Sometimes they really are done, and sometimes they bounce back.

I'll admit that Raheem's position is kind of a win-win for him. If he's right, then sure, Thornton struggles and the Sharks don't go anywhere, but Raheem is validated. If he's wrong, the Sharks do well and Thornton rebounds, and no one cares that Raheem was wrong.
 

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