Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation 14-15 Part XI

[Hunter368]

What would you say is fair for Couture if Buff was included in the trade? That's why I brought it up, to gauge value.

Good question, really depends on the Sharks plan and needs. Retool or rebuilt? I think they are just planning a retool, so I'll go with that ideal. Possible pieces we have and hold some value.

- Any prospect not named Ehlers, Morrissey or Helle. Petan is likely the most valuable I would consider trading.

- Our extra late first round pick.

- Buff

- Chariot, Postma, Stuart, Clitty

- Ladd

- Burmi's rights

Anything else would really make me hesitate (too valuable to lose) or holds little value (ex: Pavs).

 

[KingBogo]

We have been through this already last year and I could not disagree more. Arbitration would have done nothing but compromise the only card Chevy has in his hand--the one representing integrity, mutual respect, and high-class management. He still holds that card and if it does not work now, then we never had any chance with Frolik. What we do know is that arbitration is a very unpleasant process and would have compromised that advantage for a one year deal.
Chevy has his budget. Frolik has his price. Either Frolik decides to give Winnipeg a slight discount because he likes it here, or he goes to the highest bidder. That is his decision entirely, always was. This was never a game of chicken.

You can disagree if you want. But are you saying Bergerin lacks "integrity, mutual respect or is not high class"? He was in the exact same position with his franchise player last summer, so there were even higher stakes and greater risk. The Habs and Subban went to the arbitration hearing, then kept negotiating until the last second and they signed their player. IMO Chevy threw away 2-3 days of negotiation time when the pressure was on both sides. Instead he gave Walsh exactly what he wanted. For what...for him to remember he was a nice guy? Now Frolik is on his way to market. I just hope Chevy has learned his lessons when it comes to Buff and Ladd, because they are too valuable to let walk away. A GM's job is not to be a players friend, it is to build a team.

 

[Aavco Cup]

OK that two that Walsh has totally out-negatiated Chevy on. You think we have a chance of getting Fro or Tlusty at a good rate -- neither do I.

Tlusty is not represented by Walsh.

 

[Aavco Cup]

@reporterchris: Gary Bettman says next year's NHL salary cap is projected to be $71.5M.

 

[Huffer]

Wrote my opinions before, PHI is a bad fit.

LHD targets:
Carle TBL
Smith DET
Hamhuis VAN

in that order, that's how I see it.

IMO if we're adding Carle or Smith to the team we are going the wrong way.

 

[mcpw]

IMO if we're adding Carle or Smith to the team we are going the wrong way.

What's the right way?

(I keep reading about trading Byfuglien for a "young top4 LHD", as if every team had two of such players available. Give me names.)

 

[JetsFan815]

I doubt the Sharks would give up Couture in any trade involving a relatively older player like Buff. If we want to get Couture the talks begin at Ehlers+

 

[scelaton]

You can disagree if you want. But are you saying Bergerin lacks "integrity, mutual respect or is not high class"? He was in the exact same position with his franchise player last summer, so there were even higher stakes and greater risk. The Habs and Subban went to the arbitration hearing, then kept negotiating until the last second and they signed their player. IMO Chevy threw away 2-3 days of negotiation time when the pressure was on both sides. Instead he gave Walsh exactly what he wanted. For what...for him to remember he was a nice guy? Now Frolik is on his way to market. I just hope Chevy has learned his lessons when it comes to Buff and Ladd, because they are too valuable to let walk away. A GM's job is not to be a players friend, it is to build a team.

Bergevin blew the Subban negotiation 2 years earlier, when he failed to sign him to a long-term deal coming out of his ELC. By the time last summer's negotiation came, he was screwed, as Subban was a franchise player, and everybody knew it. In the end, PK ended up with an 8 year deal with the highest AAV in the league for a defenceman. Bad example if you are looking for a model of negotiating.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/p-k-subbans-new-contract-a-win-lose-for-canadiens-gm-bergevin/

Chevy is not perfect but he has consistently signed his key players to LT deals when possible; that has saved the franchise dollars and created fiscal stability.
Frolik and Subban are different players--one was a "keep at all costs" franchise player that ended up being signed at an excessive cost. The other is a "sign if you can" middle-6 F who we'd dearly love to keep, but only at the right price. But in both cases, it is the player who holds (virtually) all the cards. From the same article:

"Veteran gamblers understand the house usually wins. But Bergevin learned the hard way: when it comes to player contracts, the players are the house. The league’s collective bargaining agreement is designed to make teams project and make tough decisions on elite young players earlier than ever. "

That quote applies not only to elite young players, but to the Froliks of the world, as well. Bergevin had a chance to sign PK to a better deal out of his ELC but missed the opportunity. At that point, PK, like Frolik, held all the cards and all their GMs held was "integrity, mutual respect...", etc. The difference is that Chevy has realized this from the outset, while Bergevin had to learn it the hard way.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I doubt the Sharks would give up Couture in any trade involving a relatively older player like Buff. If we want to get Couture the talks begin at Ehlers+

You're right that Buff doesn't enter the conversation. Ehlers doesn't either. Not even for Couture ++.

 

[JetsFan815]

Bergevin blew the Subban negotiation 2 years earlier, when he failed to sign him to a long-term deal coming out of his ELC. By the time last summer's negotiation came, he was screwed, as Subban was a franchise player, and everybody knew it. In the end, PK ended up with an 8 year deal with the highest AAV in the league for a defenceman. Bad example if you are looking for a model of negotiating.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/p-k-subbans-new-contract-a-win-lose-for-canadiens-gm-bergevin/

Chevy is not perfect but he has consistently signed his key players to LT deals when possible; that has saved the franchise dollars and created fiscal stability.
Frolik and Subban are different players--one was a "keep at all costs" franchise player that ended up being signed at an excessive cost. The other is a "sign if you can" middle-6 F who we'd dearly love to keep, but only at the right price. But in both cases, it is the player who holds (virtually) all the cards. From the same article:

"Veteran gamblers understand the house usually wins. But Bergevin learned the hard way: when it comes to player contracts, the players are the house. The league’s collective bargaining agreement is designed to make teams project and make tough decisions on elite young players earlier than ever. "

That quote applies not only to elite young players, but to the Froliks of the world, as well. Bergevin had a chance to sign PK to a better deal out of his ELC but missed the opportunity. At that point, PK, like Frolik, held all the cards and all their GMs held was "integrity, mutual respect...", etc. The difference is that Chevy has realized this from the outset, while Bergevin had to learn it the hard way.

Bergevin handled the PK situation EXACTLY as a good GM should. From a risk management perspective it is much better to pay a proven player the top dollar rather than hope to save a couple millon by giving a relatively unproven player a big deal. PK was a given a show me contract and for 2 seasons proved himself to be a Norris calibre defenseman and got paid like one, sure the habs might have saved 1million-1.5mill on the caphit had they signed subban to a longterm contract 2 years ago but they would also have been saddled with the risk of being stuck with an albatross contract had Subban failed to play upto that contract.

Frolik situation is not comparable. The closest comparable is the Pavelec deal, Chevy had all the leverage when negotiating the Pavs contract but for inexplicable reason gave it all up. The argument you are espousing above was repeated on this board back then and look how it turned out for us. I'd rather have Chevy given Pavs a 2 years 2.5 million contract back then and then resigned Paves to 5-5.5 million a year if he proved himself to be starting goaling rather then be stuck with 4million a year on his contract longterm

 

[Huffer]

What's the right way?

(I keep reading about trading Byfuglien for a "young top4 LHD", as if every team had two of such players available. Give me names.)

My point is neither Carle or Smith are good enough players that we should be wanting them on our 2nd pair. Detroit fans are looking to move Smith for anything at this point and don't even really factor him in their future plans.

What I'm saying is that the Jets don't get better by trying to get guys who are not good enough on other teams in a certain role (2nd pair LHD), and putting them in that role here and hoping they all of sudden improve.

I've never said we needed to move Buff for a young top4 LHD. Sure that would be nice, but I also don't know where that situation exists.

But if we are using Detroit and TB as examples, for me personally I would rather target guys like Ouellet and Koekkoek (injuries withstanding) as pieces if we're targeting LHD. They're not going to possibly be as good as Smith and Carle next season, but at least there is a chance for them to become true "plus" 2nd pair guys. Plus, I'm not even convinced that Carle or Smith are even that big of upgrades on Chariot to be worth using a trade piece like Buff on.

 

[scelaton]

Bergevin handled the PK situation EXACTLY as a good GM should. From a risk management perspective it is much better to pay a proven player the top dollar rather than hope to save a couple millon by giving a relatively unproven player a big deal. PK was a given a show me contract and for 2 seasons proved himself to be a Norris calibre defenseman and got paid like one, sure the habs might have saved 1million-1.5mill on the caphit had they signed subban to a longterm contract 2 years ago but they would also have been saddled with the risk of being stuck with an albatross contract had Subban failed to play upto that contract.

Frolik situation is not comparable. The closest comparable is the Pavelec deal, Chevy had all the leverage when negotiating the Pavs contract but for inexplicable reason gave it all up. The argument you are espousing above was repeated on this board back then and look how it turned out for us. I'd rather have Chevy given Pavs a 2 years 2.5 million contract back then and then resigned Paves to 5-5.5 million a year if he proved himself to be starting goaling rather then be stuck with 4million a year on his contract longterm

1)Pavelec?? How'd he get in here?
For the record, Chevy had very little leverage with Pav as it was widely known (and admitted later by Pav) he had a KHL offer and could have walked, as did Burmi later on. In retrospect, it was the wrong choice, but at the time it was a LT deal or bust with Pav. The cards I alluded to earlier that are stacked in favour of the player are even more heavily stacked for those with a viable KHL option. But, please, can we avoid re-opening the Pandora's Box that is all things Pav...or save it for the dedicated Pav thread?
2)If you think Bergevin is a genius for giving Subban the highest AAV and longest duration D contract in the league, then I guess you're on the side of giving Frolik exactly what he is asking for too. Or do you have a strategy to apply leverage to him to force him to take less?
Glad you're not managing my money

 

[mcpw]

My point is neither Carle or Smith are good enough players that we should be wanting them on our 2nd pair. Detroit fans are looking to move Smith for anything at this point and don't even really factor him in their future plans.

What I'm saying is that the Jets don't get better by trying to get guys who are not good enough on other teams in a certain role (2nd pair LHD), and putting them in that role here and hoping they all of sudden improve.

I've never said we needed to move Buff for a young top4 LHD. Sure that would be nice, but I also don't know where that situation exists.

But if we are using Detroit and TB as examples, for me personally I would rather target guys like Ouellet and Koekkoek (injuries withstanding) as pieces if we're targeting LHD. They're not going to possibly be as good as Smith and Carle next season, but at least there is a chance for them to become true "plus" 2nd pair guys. Plus, I'm not even convinced that Carle or Smith are even that big of upgrades on Chariot to be worth using a trade piece like Buff on.

Smith is an add-on, true. But Carle? Is a second pairing of Carle-Trouba really a step back?

If that's the case, we should probably focus on forwards.

 

[CaptainChef]

Tlusty is not represented by Walsh.

Im sure someone said he was -- or did I just deduce that since buddies Fro & Pavs both are

 

[CaptainChef]

What's the right way?

(I keep reading about trading Byfuglien for a "young top4 LHD", as if every team had two of such players available. Give me names.)

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1854143

We've hashed this out on the trade boards a fair bit. Some of the best offers in that thread -- from a few weeks ago:

Edm - 2015 1st (Pitts), 2016 1st (top 5 protected; 2nd if he doesn't resign), Marincin/Ference, Yakimov/Gernat
Vanc -- 2015 1st, Kassian, Lack/Miller, Hamhuis
Ott - 2015 1st (1st overall protected... If 1st overall you get 2016 1st, 2017 1st), Cowen, Lehner,
Minn - 2015 1st, Spurgeon, Coyle

 

[mcpw]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1854143

We've hashed this out on the trade boards a fair bit. Some of the best offers in that thread -- from a few weeks ago:

Edm - 2015 1st (Pitts), 2016 1st (top 5 protected; 2nd if he doesn't resign), Marincin/Ference, Yakimov/Gernat
Vanc -- 2015 1st, Kassian, Lack/Miller, Hamhuis
Ott - 2015 1st (1st overall protected... If 1st overall you get 2016 1st, 2017 1st), Cowen, Lehner,
Minn - 2015 1st, Spurgeon, Coyle

The Minnesota one is completely unrealistic. Vancouver + Ottawa offers have a goalie in there - wouldn't be too bad, but I doubt Chevy does it. Edmonton has been discussed a bit, that offer, as written there is totally hilarious: Marincin is a good NHL-ready prospect while Ference is a negative value dump; Yakimov is an as-big-as-Adam-Lowry center prospect doing well in the AHL while Gernat is just a late-round bust. Basically, Edmonton can offer PIT 1st + Marincin + stuff. A later thread had the following offers:

BOS - Smith, Khokhlachev, 1st
TBL - Carle, Namestnikov, 3rd
DET - Helm, Smith, Jurco/Pulkkinen

Edit for good measure: only the Minnesota offer has a "young Top4 LHD" in it.

 

[Moveslikejagr247]

Anyone have an idea on what the jets Ufa's should be getting yearly??

 

[KingBogo]

Bergevin blew the Subban negotiation 2 years earlier, when he failed to sign him to a long-term deal coming out of his ELC. By the time last summer's negotiation came, he was screwed, as Subban was a franchise player, and everybody knew it. In the end, PK ended up with an 8 year deal with the highest AAV in the league for a defenceman. Bad example if you are looking for a model of negotiating.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/p-k-subbans-new-contract-a-win-lose-for-canadiens-gm-bergevin/

Chevy is not perfect but he has consistently signed his key players to LT deals when possible; that has saved the franchise dollars and created fiscal stability.
Frolik and Subban are different players--one was a "keep at all costs" franchise player that ended up being signed at an excessive cost. The other is a "sign if you can" middle-6 F who we'd dearly love to keep, but only at the right price. But in both cases, it is the player who holds (virtually) all the cards. From the same article:

"Veteran gamblers understand the house usually wins. But Bergevin learned the hard way: when it comes to player contracts, the players are the house. The league’s collective bargaining agreement is designed to make teams project and make tough decisions on elite young players earlier than ever. "

That quote applies not only to elite young players, but to the Froliks of the world, as well. Bergevin had a chance to sign PK to a better deal out of his ELC but missed the opportunity. At that point, PK, like Frolik, held all the cards and all their GMs held was "integrity, mutual respect...", etc. The difference is that Chevy has realized this from the outset, while Bergevin had to learn it the hard way.

How did Bergevin blow Subban's negotiation 2 years earlier? He wanted a 2 year bridge and got it. The vast majority of GM's would rather pay more for something they know, rather then pay a little less on an unknown. You haven't seen other GM's now back away from bridge deals have you? Even for top young players. Subban turned into a Norris winner. Explain how having one of your players turn into a franchise player is getting screwed. You have to pay for that. And I hope Chevy gets screwed a few times then. The only long term contract Chevy signed off an ELC was Kane's all the rest fall into the same bridge deal and then long term contact mode as Subban. Just none of them were franchise players. Too bad for us. Soon there will also be other d-man with higher AVV, and by the end of the contract it will likely look like a deal. And BTW quoting a hockey news article hardly proves a point.

But that wasn't even the main point of my comment. Subban's or Frolik's previous contract wasn't the point, and really had little to do with what I was arguing. My point was Chevy bailed with 2-3 days left of negotiating time and the agent got exactly what he wanted. It wasn't a choice between a bridge and a long term deal. It was a choice between a long term deal and watching the player walk for nothing at the soonest opportunity. Maybe nothing more was available but we will never know. At the very least Chevy would have a better feel for Walsh's intent. On the other hand Bergevin hung in there until the last minute and got a deal done. Over paying a bit is far superior to watching a top young player walk for nothing.

 

[BigZ65]

Chevy negotiating with our own guys about to hit UFA scares me. Only big money guy he's done that with so far is Enstrom, and he got a full no-movement clause.

 

[mcpw]

Chevy negotiating with our own guys about to hit UFA scares me. Only big money guy he's done that with so far is Enstrom, and he got a full no-movement clause.

TIL: Kane, Little, Wheeler, Bogosian, Pavelec are small money guys.

 

[KingBogo]

TIL: Kane, Little, Wheeler, Bogosian, Pavelec are small money guys.

No but none of them were pending UFA's.

 

[mcpw]

No but none of them were pending UFA's.

...got me.

 

[Aavco Cup]

No but none of them were pending UFA's.

Wasn't Toby done early? In same situation as Ladd and Buff.

 

[ps241]

Wasn't Toby done early? In same situation as Ladd and Buff.

Yea he was signed in late July before his last season started.

 

[KingBogo]

Wasn't Toby done early? In same situation as Ladd and Buff.

I think the OP was regarding players that were in a position to sign in their last year before UFA status. That is how I took it anyways.