Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (12-13 Part XIII)

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Huffer

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Jul 16, 2010
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I really like the schenn deal getting Luke would allow Trouba to not get pressed into top 4 duty right away and once he is ready Luke could move down to a bottom pairing who is more than capable to play in the top4 if some of our injury prone D go down.This also gives Scheifele some time to develop at the NHL or AHL level.

Ladd/Schenn/Wheeler
Kane/Scheifele/Little
Tangradi/Jokinen/FA
Wright/Slater/Peluso

Enstrom/Schenn
FA/Bogosian
Stuart/Trouba

Possible free agents I would like to see are Scuderi,Ference on D and Stalberg,Dupuis,Jones on the wing to fill some holes.

I think some might balk at having two young guys as the #1 and #2 C's, but I like the idea of seeing if they could run with it. Both would have more than enough help on the wings.

Stalberg would be nice on the 3rd, but could the Jets afford to pay him what he's going to get to play on the 3rd line? O'Dell might be worth a look here as well.

I think like Tait says in his article on the weekend, while we still need to find another top 6 player (2 if Scheifele doesn't hold his own), that bottom 6 really needs some work over the next year or two. The third line needs to start to produce, and positive possession numbers isn't going to cut it. Same with the fourth but obviously to a little less degree than the third.

Don't know if you have Schenn with Enstrom so you could continue to give Bogo the tough defensive minutes, but IMO, Bogo has a lot more offensive upside than Schenn, and Schenn could hold his own on the defensive matchups. I would put Bogo with Enstrom, and put Schenn with a guy like Clitsome or Kulda (if we ever see him). Scuderi or Orpik would be great, but I wonder what our cap would start to look like.
 

truck

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I think some might balk at having two young guys as the #1 and #2 C's, but I like the idea of seeing if they could run with it. Both would have more than enough help on the wings.

Stalberg would be nice on the 3rd, but could the Jets afford to pay him what he's going to get to play on the 3rd line? O'Dell might be worth a look here as well.

I think like Tait says in his article on the weekend, while we still need to find another top 6 player (2 if Scheifele doesn't hold his own), that bottom 6 really needs some work over the next year or two. The third line needs to start to produce, and positive possession numbers isn't going to cut it. Same with the fourth but obviously to a little less degree than the third.

Don't know if you have Schenn with Enstrom so you could continue to give Bogo the tough defensive minutes, but IMO, Bogo has a lot more offensive upside than Schenn, and Schenn could hold his own on the defensive matchups. I would put Bogo with Enstrom, and put Schenn with a guy like Clitsome or Kulda (if we ever see him). Scuderi or Orpik would be great, but I wonder what our cap would start to look like.
I will take positive possession and +/- out of the 3rd line, even if they don't score a ton. Same goes for the 1st and 2nd lines for that matter. Don't get outscored, that is the key. Chevy needs to fill out the 2nd line for sure. If he trades Burmi, he needs to build a 3rd line too.

No small task. If he fails and the team takes a step back, is Chevy on the hot seat.
 

Huffer

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I will take positive possession and +/- out of the 3rd line, even if they don't score a ton. Same goes for the 1st and 2nd lines for that matter. Don't get outscored, that is the key. Chevy needs to fill out the 2nd line for sure. If he trades Burmi, he needs to build a 3rd line too.

No small task. If he fails and the team takes a step back, is Chevy on the hot seat.

My point is that our bottom 6 (probably more accurate to say middle 6), need to start to produce. As in goals and points to help the team win games. Inherent in that, I am inferring that I want them to produce more than they cost, as in they score more than get scored on.

What I am saying though, is that at the end of the day, at some point positive possession numbers don't mean a thing if those lines aren't also putting pucks in the net. Positive possession does not necessarily equal outscoring your opposition. It's a nice indicator that a line is doing good things, but at the end of the day it means nothing if our third line out "possessed" the other teams third line in a game, but the other teams third line ended up getting 2 goals and ours 0.
 

Zhamnov10

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Jul 17, 2011
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I think some might balk at having two young guys as the #1 and #2 C's, but I like the idea of seeing if they could run with it. Both would have more than enough help on the wings.

Stalberg would be nice on the 3rd, but could the Jets afford to pay him what he's going to get to play on the 3rd line? O'Dell might be worth a look here as well.

I think like Tait says in his article on the weekend, while we still need to find another top 6 player (2 if Scheifele doesn't hold his own), that bottom 6 really needs some work over the next year or two. The third line needs to start to produce, and positive possession numbers isn't going to cut it. Same with the fourth but obviously to a little less degree than the third.

Don't know if you have Schenn with Enstrom so you could continue to give Bogo the tough defensive minutes, but IMO, Bogo has a lot more offensive upside than Schenn, and Schenn could hold his own on the defensive matchups. I would put Bogo with Enstrom, and put Schenn with a guy like Clitsome or Kulda (if we ever see him). Scuderi or Orpik would be great, but I wonder what our cap would start to look like.

My thought process behind seperating bogo and Enstrom was to allow them a little more offensive freedom playing with a defence first type of partner.
 

Grind

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Jan 25, 2012
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My point is that our bottom 6 (probably more accurate to say middle 6), need to start to produce. As in goals and points to help the team win games. Inherent in that, I am inferring that I want them to produce more than they cost, as in they score more than get scored on.

What I am saying though, is that at the end of the day, at some point positive possession numbers don't mean a thing if those lines aren't also putting pucks in the net. Positive possession does not necessarily equal outscoring your opposition. It's a nice indicator that a line is doing good things, but at the end of the day it means nothing if our third line out "possessed" the other teams third line in a game, but the other teams third line ended up getting 2 goals and ours 0.

right, it may mean "nothing" if we outposessed but lost. What id does indicate is that in that game the other team got lucky. Meaning if we were to play the game again, we'd probably win.

the point about using posession versus goals is that if your left to make one of two decisions (goal scoring with bad posession, low goal scoring with good posession) over an appropriate sample size, the players that you've selected who have good posession but have been unable to score, are more likely to score longterm.

if player abc and have **** posession numbers but ahve put up a bunch of goals in the last season, and players XYZ were the opposite- it is much much more likely that players XYZ will score more next year and players ABC's production was entirely based off luck.

EDIT: he way shot percentage appears to work when looking at players across the league, is that in very macro terms, everyone shoots the same (there's a few that perform signifantly outside the "normal" range).

so goal scoring is no longer really about taking good shots or being a sniper (since nearly everyone reverts to the same shot %) but its just about a) putting shots on net (which is reflected in good possession numbers) and B) getting lucky and having the 10%(or whatever the mean is) dice roll come out in your favor.

yes goals are what win you games, but goals over a long term are indicative of the amount of shots the player's taking (besides the few). Weighting goals above the possession numbers is weighting your 10% die roll (something the player isn't in control of) over the shot on net (something the player does control).
 
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Zhamnov10

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Jul 17, 2011
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I think some might balk at having two young guys as the #1 and #2 C's, but I like the idea of seeing if they could run with it. Both would have more than enough help on the wings.

Stalberg would be nice on the 3rd, but could the Jets afford to pay him what he's going to get to play on the 3rd line? O'Dell might be worth a look here as well.

I think like Tait says in his article on the weekend, while we still need to find another top 6 player (2 if Scheifele doesn't hold his own), that bottom 6 really needs some work over the next year or two. The third line needs to start to produce, and positive possession numbers isn't going to cut it. Same with the fourth but obviously to a little less degree than the third.

Don't know if you have Schenn with Enstrom so you could continue to give Bogo the tough defensive minutes, but IMO, Bogo has a lot more offensive upside than Schenn, and Schenn could hold his own on the defensive matchups. I would put Bogo with Enstrom, and put Schenn with a guy like Clitsome or Kulda (if we ever see him). Scuderi or Orpik would be great, but I wonder what our cap would start to look like.
I think for a couple of years until the Cap goes up and we have legit prospects to bring up to help manage the cap I bet we will run close to the cap limit.
 

Huffer

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My thought process behind seperating bogo and Enstrom was to allow them a little more offensive freedom playing with a defence first type of partner.

I like that too. Truth be told, I like the idea of having well rounding pairings better than our specialized offense and defense pairings as well.

If that was the case (and this whole thing is hypothetical based on a trade that likely won't happen), I wonder if you move Bogo to the left, and then at some point either at the end of this year or sometime next year, you move Trouba up to the 2nd pair. At that point you can then just gradually give the Bogo and Trouba more and more minutes until they are you're number 1, all situations pair. And then you've got Enstrom and Schenn playing (and most likely beating) 2nd pair type competition.

Man, that was a nice paragraph to write.....:D
 

sully1410

#EggosForEleven
Dec 28, 2011
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I like that too. Truth be told, I like the idea of having well rounding pairings better than our specialized offense and defense pairings as well.

If that was the case (and this whole thing is hypothetical based on a trade that likely won't happen), I wonder if you move Bogo to the left, and then at some point either at the end of this year or sometime next year, you move Trouba up to the 2nd pair. At that point you can then just gradually give the Bogo and Trouba more and more minutes until they are you're number 1, all situations pair. And then you've got Enstrom and Schenn playing (and most likely beating) 2nd pair type competition.

Man, that was a nice paragraph to write.....:D

That would be ideal. As I stated before, I only ever played street hockey...so I don't know how hard it truly is to play on your offside. Would it really affect Bogo? I don't know. And then there is the question of what do you do until then? If your switching Bogo to the left, that's cool, but then your forced to play one of Red, Post, Troub on the second pairin at all times. Not a single one of them looked like they were really ready to play at that level. If you want to be a playoff team and have success, you need to have a legitimate top four. That's probably not going to happen until the season after next if we trade Buff.

Then we could do exactly as you said Huff.

But even at that....without Buff, your losing a huge offensive advantage from the back end. Especially if Toby is injured. I'm not sure of Schenn's capabilities, but both Bogo and Trouba are really Defense first guys. Not saying they don't have a bit of that upside, but it's not like that's their bread and butter.

Especially since Bogo couldn't the broad side of Hainsey's butt with his slap shot.

I think we might be better off on the long run if we wait out in trading Buff and just acquired a Left handed D. I've been a big proponent of trading Buff, and I still think we could trade him...and we should trade him. Just maybe next year once we know what our new division has in store and we really know what our D is going to look like with the Troubadour in its ranks.

I wouldn't be upset if it happened now, I would just want Chevy to have a plan for our D that doesn't involve plugging holes with waiver pickups. Not that there 's anything wrong with that...but still. I think it's **** or get off the pot time.
 

buggs

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I think some might balk at having two young guys as the #1 and #2 C's, but I like the idea of seeing if they could run with it. Both would have more than enough help on the wings.

Stalberg would be nice on the 3rd, but could the Jets afford to pay him what he's going to get to play on the 3rd line? O'Dell might be worth a look here as well.

I think like Tait says in his article on the weekend, while we still need to find another top 6 player (2 if Scheifele doesn't hold his own), that bottom 6 really needs some work over the next year or two. The third line needs to start to produce, and positive possession numbers isn't going to cut it. Same with the fourth but obviously to a little less degree than the third.

Don't know if you have Schenn with Enstrom so you could continue to give Bogo the tough defensive minutes, but IMO, Bogo has a lot more offensive upside than Schenn, and Schenn could hold his own on the defensive matchups. I would put Bogo with Enstrom, and put Schenn with a guy like Clitsome or Kulda (if we ever see him). Scuderi or Orpik would be great, but I wonder what our cap would start to look like.

Lowry and Kosmachuk? Telegin as a longish shot? Too far out in terms of timeline?
 
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VictoriaJetsFan

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Mar 24, 2013
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I love the Schenn trade idea....Luke can play second pairing now and even in the future he could do third pairing when Trouba develops. This affords us the important process of having Trouba develop slowly.

Draft Zadarov and if you could ever trade Enstrom for someone like, my fav would be Jared Cowan, run a d like this:

Cowan Schenn
Zadorov Bogo
Stuart Trouba

This would take a couple of years, given Zadorov's development, but I think you could win the Stanley Cup with this group..
 

Hobby Bull

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Anyone else get the feeling that Antropov won't be back? I'm starting to feel that way for sure.
I hope that's not true. He gets a lot of crud thrown his way, but he's objectively a good player.

The biggest reason for him not coming back would be the value that other teams see in his game. Unfortunately, that makes him expensive.
 

Bob E

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I love the Schenn trade idea....Luke can play second pairing now and even in the future he could do third pairing when Trouba develops. This affords us the important process of having Trouba develop slowly.

Draft Zadarov and if you could ever trade Enstrom for someone like, my fav would be Jared Cowan, run a d like this:

Cowan Schenn
Zadorov Bogo
Stuart Trouba

This would take a couple of years, given Zadorov's development, but I think you could win the Stanley Cup with this group..

In 2+ years, Schenn would be a 3rd pairing rh dman in that lineup, and Stuart would be long gone. Not much offense unless Trouba can turn into the next Denis Potvin.
 

truck

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In 2+ years, Schenn would be a 3rd pairing rh dman in that lineup, and Stuart would be long gone. Not much offense unless Trouba can turn into the next Denis Potvin.

Bogo has ranked 13th and 32nd in even strength scoring (per minute) over the last two seasons. Trouba has plenty of offenive upside too.

Plus one of Redmond or Postma could stick around in llace of Stu.
 

YWGinYYZ

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Bogo has ranked 13th and 32nd in even strength scoring (per minute) over the last two seasons. Trouba has plenty of offenive upside too.

Plus one of Redmond or Postma could stick around in llace of Stu.

I hope that happens. I love Stuart's grit and tenacity, but his defensive game? Not so much.

Which is somewhat important for a defenseman. ;)
 

sully1410

#EggosForEleven
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I hope that happens. I love Stuart's grit and tenacity, but his defensive game? Not so much.

Which is somewhat important for a defenseman. ;)

A lot of GM's value his character, so you could probably get more then he's worth in trade. Especially is Red or Post can switch over. Hell, Clitsome could in theory take his spot.
 

sully1410

#EggosForEleven
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I hope that's not true. He gets a lot of crud thrown his way, but he's objectively a good player.

The biggest reason for him not coming back would be the value that other teams see in his game. Unfortunately, that makes him expensive.

That, and Im not sure if there will really be a spot for him next season regardless.

Our center would be Little, Burmi, Scheifele, Jokinen, Slater. Really not a whole hell of alot of room for the guy, which is too bad because I would have liked to have seen him back.
 

Hobby Bull

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That, and Im not sure if there will really be a spot for him next season regardless.

Our center would be Little, Burmi, Scheifele, Jokinen, Slater. Really not a whole hell of alot of room for the guy, which is too bad because I would have liked to have seen him back.


You're absolutely right. All things being equal (no other movement). I hadn't seen it that way.
 

Sixty Minute Man

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Apr 13, 2013
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This looks great:

Ladd/Schenn/Wheeler
Kane/Scheifele/Little
Tangradi/Jokinen/FA
Wright/Slater/Peluso

Enstrom/Schenn
FA/Bogosian
Stuart/Trouba


I think O'Dell should get a look on that third line, while Tangradi should drop to the fourth line. Pick up a solid FA for the third line/left side (Antropov? Wellwood?)

I also like the idea of trying Bogosian on the left side. Would it be weird to try this? Our secret weapon??

Enstrom/Schenn
Bogo/Clitty
Stuart/Trouba

When Trouba is ready, bump him up with Bogo, trade Stuart and have Clitty play 3LD with Redmond, or Postma.
 

Zhamnov10

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Jul 17, 2011
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This looks great:

Ladd/Schenn/Wheeler
Kane/Scheifele/Little
Tangradi/Jokinen/FA
Wright/Slater/Peluso

Enstrom/Schenn
FA/Bogosian
Stuart/Trouba


I think O'Dell should get a look on that third line, while Tangradi should drop to the fourth line. Pick up a solid FA for the third line/left side (Antropov? Wellwood?)

I also like the idea of trying Bogosian on the left side. Would it be weird to try this? Our secret weapon??

Enstrom/Schenn
Bogo/Clitty
Stuart/Trouba

When Trouba is ready, bump him up with Bogo, trade Stuart and have Clitty play 3LD with Redmond, or Postma.

I am curious to see what happens with Clitsome I like him around 1.5 mil a year but I don't think I would want him at more then that I think he will get over 2 mil a year from another team but D can't afford that in a bottom pairing.
 

garret9

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My point is that our bottom 6 (probably more accurate to say middle 6), need to start to produce. As in goals and points to help the team win games. Inherent in that, I am inferring that I want them to produce more than they cost, as in they score more than get scored on.

What I am saying though, is that at the end of the day, at some point positive possession numbers don't mean a thing if those lines aren't also putting pucks in the net. Positive possession does not necessarily equal outscoring your opposition. It's a nice indicator that a line is doing good things, but at the end of the day it means nothing if our third line out "possessed" the other teams third line in a game, but the other teams third line ended up getting 2 goals and ours 0.

I believe that somewhere around 80-90% of the time outpossession doesn't lead to outscoring only if there is a large discrepancy in goaltending.
As you go larger and large sample sizes possession and (relative to team average) +/- tend to somewhat equal out.
 

Huffer

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Jul 16, 2010
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I believe that somewhere around 80-90% of the time outpossession doesn't lead to outscoring only if there is a large discrepancy in goaltending.
As you go larger and large sample sizes possession and (relative to team average) +/- tend to somewhat equal out.

I believe you when you say that, but my point is we need to start to see it.

Most of us were happy at the end of last year with the Tangradi, Burmi, Santorelli line because it looked like they were very good at tilting the ice and maintaining possession. I haven't looked back at the stats, but how many games did they contribute on the score sheet and get us a W?

That's what I mean about our 2nd and 3rd lines. To go from where we are now to a playoff team and beyond, those lines have to win you games every once in a while.
 

Gump Hasek

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Had an incredibly vivid dream last night about the Jets. Apparently we picked up Patrick Sharp in a cap-dump deal at a cost of near nothing and also made a trade for Lupul. Christopher Gibson was somehow our backup goalie this coming season as well, making the team via a training camp tryout. Really weird. I've never had a dream about hockey at all (at least one I can recall), let alone the management side of the game, nor have I ever spent much time thinking about the possibility of the above players ever joining the Jets.

This dream either represents that big changes are pending or that I'm following things a little too closely, probably the latter. Have a nice day.

emoticon_ShiftyEyes.gif
 

buggs

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Had an incredibly vivid dream last night about the Jets. Apparently we picked up Patrick Sharp in a cap-dump deal at a cost of near nothing and also made a trade for Lupul. Christopher Gibson was somehow our backup goalie this coming season as well, making the team via a training camp tryout. Really weird. I've never had a dream about hockey at all (at least one I can recall), let alone the management side of the game, nor have I ever spent much time thinking about the possibility of the above players ever joining the Jets.

This dream either represents that big changes are pending or that I'm following things a little too closely, probably the latter. Have a nice day.

emoticon_ShiftyEyes.gif

Pizza and beer before nappy time? :laugh:
 
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