Player Discussion Jake Virtanen Part 2

[WestCoast CyberG]

Ehlers & Nylander are both zone entry monsters. This is JVs greatest strenght as well (IMO).
Ehlers & Nylander are infinitely more effective with the puck after they have entered the zone.

Good post... one of the simplest and most accurate assessments I have seen.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

People are calling him 20 to 25 goal scorer already.

NO!...not what folks are saying at all, but he definitely has the POTENTIAL to put up 20+ goals given his improvements this year.

 

[iFan]

Virtanen goals break down

2 goals in first 12 games. One of them EN

6 goals in his next 8 games

2 goals in his last 17 games.

Aside from that 8 game streak, a few nice passes here and there and he doesn't do stupid things with the puck anymore. I don't see much of a difference from last year.

If you don’t see much of a difference in Virtanen game from last year then your clearly not watching as it’s been very noticeable. His overall game has really improved a lot, he’s made great progression this year.

 

[4Twenty]

I dont think anyone can with a straight face say Jake has been as good as Ehlers Nylander. And even today with Virtanens play and Nylander and Ehlers maintaining the play of the past 2 seasons that gap is fairly significant.

But...last years playoffs did happen where Nylander and Ehlers were flops and Virtanen started to show some dynamic skills at the end of 17/18. What also happened is Ehlers started this year on a horrific drought and Nylander has been in Contract dispute and has 2 assists in 6 games since coming back all while Virtanen is looking like a rare package of a fast physical 20 goal scoring winger who is great at takeaways and good at backchecking. So much improved that his coach is starting to use him to defend leads late in 3rd periods

So what people are seeing is a player in Virtanen in a fairly steep incline to nearly a top6 production wise and 2-3 line tweener to 2 players who were once thought of as 1st line wingers who may be more first 2nd line tweeners and now have something to prove especially come post season

I dont think it's unreasonable for people to be ok with surrendering some production and creativity for a rare type of player who is a hometown kid and provides some tools that you wouldn't get from Ehlers and Nylander. Like you say what is stopping Ehlers and Nylander from developing further? who knows right? But right now....... Jake is trending up while 2 guys are stagnant or slightly down. This is what we use as a predicatable measure for the future and that is advantage Virtanen and something to celebrate.

There was a point in the core development of the 2011 juggernaut that Kesler and Burrows took their games to new levels and that was critical for us becoming a contender. Maybe Horvat and Virtanen become the next Kesler and Burrows?........anyways Jake has certainly established himself as a valuable NHLer and given where he was a year ago this is good news and not really worth looking at as a critical miss in the building of this core and the competitiveness of this team

I think it's so freaking lazy to look at the counting stats to call people playoff flops, especially in 7 game samples, where their PPG is still miles ahead of JV's regular season stats. Ehlers' horrific drought to start the season happened, he's also put up the exact same amount of points as Jake has all season in his last 17 games.

Steep incline? Everyone was saying how Jake turned the corner down the stretch last year. He had 11 points in his last 37 games, he has 16 in 37. I wouldn't call that steep. He's coming into his own, but the player isn't altogether much different than he's shown even dating back to his rookie season. His stats so far are largely built of a hot streak. Hopefully he has another one.


If people are sick of hearing about Ehlers and Nylander they should probably stop a) making things up and b) bringing them up. It's hilarious to me people are using Nylander's 6 game sample this year as meaningful.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

but the player isn't altogether much different than he's shown even dating back to his rookie season. His stats so far are largely built of a hot streak.

Are you judging Jake based on his overall play or a spreadsheet? Nobody should be using his numbers alone to support his growth (or in this case dismissing it) because he has yet to show any consistency - something that will come in time. For now we have what appears to be a solid 3rd line winger who can play up to a 2nd line role as needed. This is the point most are making not sure how this translates into "but Jake...." arguments against.

Over the past few years the one area (among many) that we lacked compared to other teams is speed and size...Jake helps in both these areas tremendously.

Beyond the 1 assist he got vs Tampa, his contribution in that style of game was noticeable.

 

[WTG]

Nylander is not putting up top line numbers this year...right now his ego and reputation are doing all the talking. He will surely turn it on down the stretch no doubt be a force come playoff time...but the praise for this guy is over the top at times.

Nylander missed training camp and 2 months off the season. That's like judging Boeser on his first few games when he was playing injured.

I dont think anyone can with a straight face say Jake has been as good as Ehlers Nylander. And even today with Virtanens play and Nylander and Ehlers maintaining the play of the past 2 seasons that gap is fairly significant.

But...last years playoffs did happen where Nylander and Ehlers were flops and Virtanen started to show some dynamic skills at the end of 17/18. What also happened is Ehlers started this year on a horrific drought and Nylander has been in Contract dispute and has 2 assists in 6 games since coming back all while Virtanen is looking like a rare package of a fast physical 20 goal scoring winger who is great at takeaways and good at backchecking. So much improved that his coach is starting to use him to defend leads late in 3rd periods

So what people are seeing is a player in Virtanen in a fairly steep incline to nearly a top6 production wise and 2-3 line tweener to 2 players who were once thought of as 1st line wingers who may be more first 2nd line tweeners and now have something to prove especially come post season

I dont think it's unreasonable for people to be ok with surrendering some production and creativity for a rare type of player who is a hometown kid and provides some tools that you wouldn't get from Ehlers and Nylander. Like you say what is stopping Ehlers and Nylander from developing further? who knows right? But right now....... Jake is trending up while 2 guys are stagnant or slightly down. This is what we use as a predicatable measure for the future and that is advantage Virtanen and something to celebrate.

There was a point in the core development of the 2011 juggernaut that Kesler and Burrows took their games to new levels and that was critical for us becoming a contender. Maybe Horvat and Virtanen become the next Kesler and Burrows?........anyways Jake has certainly established himself as a valuable NHLer and given where he was a year ago this is good news and not really worth looking at as a critical miss in the building of this core and the competitiveness of this team

We do not know if Virtanen is better in the playoffs in the NHL, what we do know is that Virtanen has not been PPG in the playoffs at any level in his career. This is the problem judging players on less than 20 games in the playoffs. For example, we traded Bonino because he didn't preform in the Calgary series. People were critical of Bonino for not being a good playoff player, then he turns out to be a potential Con Smythe winner and a critical player on 2 Stanley cup runs. This is an example of using a small sample size to evaluate a player.

You can't bet on every goose egg to be golden. Not every prospect we have in our system is going to develop like Burrows or Horvat. Not every prospect is randomly going to improve their skating like Horvat, not every prospect goes from a ECHLer to NHL 1st liner like Burrows did. Also, the fact that Virtanen is a hometown kid does not increase his chances of developing more. This magical idea that Virtanen or any other prospect is going to take a development path that is so unique are rare is so extremely unlikely that it isn't worth bringing up. If any body can develop like Burrows did, why don't we see a bunch of ball-hockey/ECHLers on 1st lines today? If everyone can improve their skating like Horvat can, why do we see so few of our prospects become better skaters?

Why is it when Jake stagnates for 2-3 years in development we have to "wait and see", when Nylander and Ehlers stagnate for 2 months it's somehow indicative of their future development? Ehler's despite on a drought is on pace for 58 points. Nylander missed 2 months of the season + training camp.


Look, I've defended Virtanen before on the bases that he's actually strong defensively and a good piece on a bottom 6 line maybe 2nd line in his prime, but that doesn't mean he's even in the same ballpark as Nylander or Ehlers. Also, just because he is "big and strong" doesn't mean he suddenly eclipses them when playoffs come around.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

If you don’t see much of a difference in Virtanen game from last year then your clearly not watching as it’s been very noticeable. His overall game has really improved a lot, he’s made great progression this year.

Big increase in confidence.
Slight increase in IQ and play away from the puck.
Massive increase in puck luck for an 8 game stretch.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

Nylander missed training camp and 2 months off the season

I don't disagree, just wondering out loud if Virtanen would be given the same courtesy under similar circumstances.

 

[Icebreakers]

Only reason why fans were high on Virtanen was because he was showing something other than nothing. He still has a long way to go at becoming a consistent impact player. If he puts up 20-25 goals , cool. But until then and if he does it consistently theres no point in talking about it.


Ehlers and Nylander shouldnt even be brought up in this thread. Its not even a comparison.

 

[4Twenty]

Are you judging Jake based on his overall play or a spreadsheet? Nobody should be using his numbers alone to support his growth (or in this case dismissing it) because he has yet to show any consistency - something that will come in time. For now we have what appears to be a solid 3rd line winger who can play up to a 2nd line role as needed. This is the point most are making not sure how this translates into "but Jake...." arguments against.

Over the past few years the one area (among many) that we lacked compared to other teams is speed and size...Jake helps in both these areas tremendously.

Beyond the 1 assist he got vs Tampa, his contribution in that style of game was noticeable.

I'm not good at math, I do not do spreadsheets, although I do have an idea of what his fancy stats are like. They've always been good.

That's my point, he's still roughly the same player. I'm content with what he is, I'm just opposing the idea he's making massive strides year to year. He's still pretty much the same player with the same limitations.

This doesn't mean I'm not happy, just disagreeing with the notion that "if you can't see a massive improvement"....blah blah. I don't see it, I always saw this player in him. The 6 goal hot streak is clouding peoples judgements imo. I like Jake.

 

[WTG]

I don't disagree, just wondering out loud if Virtanen would be given the same courtesy under similar circumstances.

Compare that treatment to Boeser's early season. People were forgiving of Boeser because of what he already proved a year before. Virtanen hasn't proven it yet, so people would naturally be more critical.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

Compare that treatment to Boeser's early season. People were forgiving of Boeser because of what he already proved a year before. Virtanen hasn't proven it yet, so people would naturally be more critical.

Good answer....putting it in a context vs Boeser is fair. JV has not proved himself (yet) so you are likely correct.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

I'm not good at math, I do not do spreadsheets, although I do have an idea of what his fancy stats are like. They've always been good.

That's my point, he's still roughly the same player. I'm content with what he is, I'm just opposing the idea he's making massive strides year to year. He's still pretty much the same player with the same limitations.

This doesn't mean I'm not happy, just disagreeing with the notion that "if you can't see a massive improvement"....blah blah. I don't see it, I always saw this player in him. The 6 goal hot streak is clouding peoples judgements imo. I like Jake.

Will meet you half way on this one...yes, he has improved but still not a consistent winger. I see more potential yet for JV but it is time he start proving it I guess.

My comment re spreadsheets was for those that look at stats alone as the basis to judge his overall progress...obviously misjudged your previous assessment my apologies.

 

[sting101]

Only reason why fans were high on Virtanen was because he was showing something other than nothing. He still has a long way to go at becoming a consistent impact player. If he puts up 20-25 goals , cool. But until then and if he does it consistently theres no point in talking about it.


Ehlers and Nylander shouldnt even be brought up in this thread. Its not even a comparison.

That will never be a thing.

 

[sting101]

I think it's so freaking lazy to look at the counting stats to call people playoff flops, especially in 7 game samples, where their PPG is still miles ahead of JV's regular season stats. Ehlers' horrific drought to start the season happened, he's also put up the exact same amount of points as Jake has all season in his last 17 games.

Steep incline? Everyone was saying how Jake turned the corner down the stretch last year. He had 11 points in his last 37 games, he has 16 in 37. I wouldn't call that steep. He's coming into his own, but the player isn't altogether much different than he's shown even dating back to his rookie season. His stats so far are largely built of a hot streak. Hopefully he has another one.


If people are sick of hearing about Ehlers and Nylander they should probably stop a) making things up and b) bringing them up. It's hilarious to me people are using Nylander's 6 game sample this year as meaningful.

You want to discount small samples of stats from last years playoffs but then inlude a small segment of Virtanens season to say it was just a hot streak. Thats convenient

You say its not a steep incline but his production is on target for an 80% increase and thats without recognition of his improved defensive play and better consistency.

 

[CS95]

While I dont think JV is a 20-25 goal scorer yet I have liked the improvements hes made this year. Seems to have a lot more confidence in himself. I have hopes that he can be a consistent 20ish goal middle six player in the coming years.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

That makes 11. Beauty shot by jake!

 

[PG Canuck]

That makes 11. Beauty shot by jake!

Not a beauty shot, but just a smart one. Those kind of shots are a lot better than the ones he fires from bad angles. I can tolerate those shots on goal a lot more.

 

[Canucks1096]

That makes 11. Beauty shot by jake!

Ehlers has 13

 

[HankNDank]

Ehlers has 13

In other completely unrelated news, Artturi Lehkonen has 6.

 

[VancouverJagger]

Wow - Jake up to 11 goals. I picked 16 in last years poll and thought that was probably a bit optimistic. Yeah I know he's had the benefit of a lot of flukey goals this year but 11 goals is 11 goals. He's got a pretty good shot at 20 now - probably only the most optimistic of us could have foreseen that this year. Maybe what - 5% of us picked him for 20 +? Other than the play of Pettersson his play has been the biggest pleasant surprise of the season so far and definitely gives us a lot of cause for optimism.

 

[Mr Plow]

Ehlers has 13

You are the worst type of fan. Can't even be happy for a player on the team you support because a player drafted behind him turned out better.

Imagine watching a young player on your team establishing himself and taking strides in his game, but prohibiting yourself from enjoying it because it goes against your previous narrative.

 

[PG Canuck]

You are the worst type of fan. Can't even be happy for a player on the team you support because a player drafted behind him turned out better.

Imagine watching a young player on your team establishing himself and taking strides in his game, but prohibiting yourself from enjoying it because it goes against your previous narrative.

I don’t think that’s what that post was indicating at all. Either way, people need to stop whining about Ehlers/Nylander being brought up, and then continuously bring them up. They are better.

 

[DownGoesMcDavid]

Jake has been impressive.

The most surprising thing is it seems his ICE-Q has improved. He doesnt just panic and treat the puck like a grenade anymore.

His 2 way game had also been verrry impressive.

We got ourselves a player !

On pace for 25 goals!

 

[Dr Good Vibes]

Yea Jakes improved big time imo. He doesn’t really make those crazy giveaways that leave you scratching you head anymore. I would like to see more consistency with his hitting though, seems like he’s let up a bit in that regard. Still, showing huge progress defensively and he wins a lot of battles. Gotta hope this is mid trajectory development and not the end of the curve.