Player Discussion Jake Virtanen Part 2

[dKs89]

Virtanen will never put up as many points as Ehlers,but can impact the game in other ways that Ehlers cannot...I'm surprised that your just looking at points?

It's the same thing with a ton of people. They won't give up their blood rage at Benning and support the team and the players and instead live in a perfect 20/20 hindsight world where they're perfect GMs.

Virtanen has been a very good PLAYER for us. He's not just floating around like he used to. He is hustling, skating, being physical, he was right in the middle of things last night. His vision still needs to improve but he is making better decisions with the puck more often than not. He fills a need for us. He doesn't need to put up 60 points to be as effective as Nylander or Ehlers. He's growing with the young team as is every other young player. He isn't even done developing yet. His growth this year has been a huge step and he isn't done yet.

 

[bandwagonesque]

If Jake can maintain this level of play as a 2nd line winger and if his production increases modestly as the offense improves around him, then he's still behind Ehlers and Nylander. But not by all that much, in my opinion.

 

[Intangibos]

If Jake can maintain this level of play as a 2nd line winger and if his production increases modestly as the offense improves around him, then he's still behind Ehlers and Nylander. But not by all that much, in my opinion.

He's miles behind Ehlers and Nylander, and he isn't a 2nd liner on a team with proper depth. Goldobin should be playing RW but our LW is very very bad.

I like Virtanen, and I have hopes that he can continue to improve and I've been supporting him since the 2nd half of last season when I was impressed as he started to improve... but bro... just no man...

 

[TruKnyte]

Virtanen is definitely improving as a player, been a lot more consistent with his play each night. I think if this continues he can be an effective middle 6 winger for most of his career. A lot less question marks on him than Juolevi atm.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Virtanen is definitely improving as a player, been a lot more consistent with his play each night. I think if this continues he can be an effective middle 6 winger for most of his career. A lot less question marks on him than Juolevi atm.

22 year old player becomes valuable and exciting player after being written off as a bust at age 20

HF’s reaction: praise the 22 year old and proceed to bash the next 20 year old being written off as a bust

 

[bandwagonesque]

He's miles behind Ehlers and Nylander, and he isn't a 2nd liner on a team with proper depth. Goldobin should be playing RW but our LW is very very bad.

I like Virtanen, and I have hopes that he can continue to improve and I've been supporting him since the 2nd half of last season when I was impressed as he started to improve... but bro... just no man...

Well, no. If he can be physical, tough defensively and score 20-25 goals with little or no pp time, he'll be a second-line winger on nearly any team and close in value to the aforementioned players. Of course, either or both of them might raise their games. Neither has so far this season.

 

[lawrence]

If Jake can maintain this level of play as a 2nd line winger and if his production increases modestly as the offense improves around him, then he's still behind Ehlers and Nylander. But not by all that much, in my opinion.

I don’t think he’s an actual 2nd liner. Him being a 3rd line player is fine enough for me.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I don’t think he’s an actual 2nd liner. Him being a 3rd line player is fine enough for me.

There are a lot of teams thinner up front right now than the Canucks. I will dial it back though, he might be a 3rd liner on 8-10 teams.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

He's miles behind Ehlers and Nylander, and he isn't a 2nd liner on a team with proper depth. Goldobin should be playing RW but our LW is very very bad.

I like Virtanen, and I have hopes that he can continue to improve and I've been supporting him since the 2nd half of last season when I was impressed as he started to improve... but bro... just no man...

Virtanen puts the team first, Nylander puts Nylander first.

For this reason I personally like Jake better.

The “miles better” opinion is questionable given they are both good players and JV worked his way bottom up and Nylander has been sheltered.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Virtanen puts the team first, Nylander puts Nylander first.

For this reason I personally like Jake better.

The “miles better” opinion is questionable given they are both good players and JV worked his way bottom up and Nylander has been sheltered.

Nylander is clearly a better hockey player tham Virtanen.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

Nylander is clearly a better hockey player tham Virtanen.

How do you rate one player over another? Not arguing genuinely curious.

 

[Addison Rae]

How do you rate one player over another? Not arguing genuinely curious.

How do you rate Connor McDavid over Luca Sbisa.

Like what are you even trying to say.

 

[bandwagonesque]

How do you rate one player over another? Not arguing genuinely curious.

Watching them and noting their production and deployment. Nylander is an incredibly dangerous offensive player and can run a PP.

 

[dKs89]

Nylander is clearly a better offensive hockey player tham Virtanen.

[Mod]

They're are several things Virtanen is better at. Using his speed to create chances, using his big body physically. Defensively he is better. He isn't afraid out there. He is a team guy. He was right in the thick of things last night. He is going to set career highs in almost all categories. And he's still developing!!! Can you believe that!! I know it's hard!

But man look at Nylander and Ehlers!! Look at how they're still only producing at a 2nd line rate. Look at how they don't have the aforementioned tools Virtanen has.

People who say Nylander or Ehlers are "clearly" better hockey players are completely out to lunch and refuse to look at it objectively. They're better offensively. There's no question. But Virtanen is proving there is some offensive side to his game, along with the other factors he brings which people just refuse to give any credit for. It's just offensive numbers and all of a sudden they're better players.

Most importantly he is becoming a player. He's working hard.

 

[bandwagonesque]

[Mod]

They're are several things Virtanen is better at. Using his speed to create chances, using his big body physically. Defensively he is better. He isn't afraid out there. He is a team guy. He was right in the thick of things last night. He is going to set career highs in almost all categories. And he's still developing!!! Can you believe that!! I know it's hard!

But man look at Nylander and Ehlers!! Look at how they're still only producing at a 2nd line rate. Look at how they don't have the aforementioned tools Virtanen has.

People who say Nylander or Ehlers are "clearly" better hockey players are completely out to lunch and refuse to look at it objectively. They're better offensively. There's no question. But Virtanen is proving there is some offensive side to his game, along with the other factors he brings which people just refuse to give any credit for. It's just offensive numbers and all of a sudden they're better players.

Most importantly he is becoming a player. He's working hard.

The facts that Virtanen has skills they don't have and works hard are granted. He's still a less effective player.

 

[geebaan]

The facts that Virtanen has skills they don't have and works hard are granted. He's still a less effective player.

Why do people feel the need to try to justify hes better than Virtanen though? Like you eve agreed hes good and useful.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Why do people feel the need to try to justify hes better than Virtanen though? Like you eve agreed hes good and useful.

I don't, particularly. That's where the conversation has gone. At the moment I'm responding to someone claiming Virtanen is better.

 

[WTG]

People who say Nylander or Ehlers are "clearly" better hockey players are completely out to lunch and refuse to look at it objectively.

Hahaha what?
Do you only watch Canucks games? Nylander and Ehlers have put up top line numbers and are top line players. Yes they are objectively better players than Virtanen, how is this hard to understand?

Is Sutter as good as Boeser? Please.

he's still developing!!! Can you believe that!! I know it's hard!

Did Nylander and Ehlers also both stop developing?

 

[geebaan]

I don't, particularly. That's where the conversation has gone. At the moment I'm responding to someone claiming Virtanen is better.

No I agree with you. I just think its funny, that even though you were complimenting Jake as a player, people still feel the need to think he's better(not you haha). Makes no sense to me.

 

[Fire Benning]

Despite Jake's hot run of play earlier in the year, anyone arguing that he hasn't been surpassed at the NHL level by players who were drafted after him is wrong, end of story, that book has been closed for a while now.

That doesn't mean Virtanen isn't a useful player obviously. The discussion surrounding the team's drafting record is more apt for the management thread to be honest, at this point it's largely irrelevant for dissecting his effectiveness as a player.

 

[bbud]

Watching them and noting their production and deployment. Nylander is an incredibly dangerous offensive player and can run a PP.

He's skilled but still he's a me first guy and he's not alone there's lots of them ,Jake is becoming a physical force a team first player that with decent skill he's the guy teams go to battle with and for if he keeps it up and i do still think his best is maybe 2 to 3 years away he could well be a nasty beast who scores hits and intimidates and that type of player is really hard to get.

 

[bbud]

Despite Jake's hot run of play earlier in the year, anyone arguing that he hasn't been surpassed at the NHL level by players who were drafted after him is wrong, end of story, that book has been closed for a while now.

That doesn't mean Virtanen isn't a useful player obviously. The discussion surrounding the team's drafting record is more apt for the management thread to be honest, at this point it's largely irrelevant for dissecting his effectiveness as a player.

Different type of players Jake has things to build on some of those skill boys never will can't compare but each can be every bit as important to his team .

 

[bandwagonesque]

He's skilled but still he's a me first guy and he's not alone there's lots of them ,Jake is becoming a physical force a team first player that with decent skill he's the guy teams go to battle with and for if he keeps it up and i do still think his best is maybe 2 to 3 years away he could well be a nasty beast who scores hits and intimidates and that type of player is really hard to get.

Again, no one's saying Nylander doesn't have flaws or that Virtanen doesn't have strengths. And yes, there's a distinct possibility Virtanen becomes a star. He isn't one now.

 

[WTG]

Imagine arguing that a career high 20 point player is somehow in the same ballpark as 2 players with back to back 60+ point seasons.
Ehlers had as many goals last season as Jake had his entire career.

Yes, these two players are objectively better then Jake.

Be happy that Jake is going to probably be a Hansen type player which will be valuable to any teams bottom 6. However, if you trade that player for a first liner you would make that move 10/10 times.

 

[Intangibos]

Virtanen puts the team first, Nylander puts Nylander first.

For this reason I personally like Jake better.

The “miles better” opinion is questionable given they are both good players and JV worked his way bottom up and Nylander has been sheltered.

First of all we don't even know that because Virtanen does not have the leverage Nylander did. If Virtanen put the team first why did he spend that summer eating pizza and chips instead of getting in shape? Why did Horvat get a $5.5m contract when he hadn't even put up the numbers Nylander did? Is Horvat not a team player who puts himself first?

Second of all Nylander had a unique situation. He's behind Matthews, Tavares and Marner. If he signs a bridge contract he might not get the same offensive opportunities those players get and that would significantly harm his value when he approaches free agency. Yeah it's great when players leave a bit of money on the table to win the cup, but you cant expect Nylander to leave money on the table with not only this contract but very possibly his next one as well, even if he doesn't sign with a cup contender because his value would have tanked rather than him settling.

This isn't just a kid holding out for a bit more money and f***ing his team, he could lose 1.5m/year on his next contract as well as 1m on this contract if he settled. Are you really going to give up $10m because your team wants to have several elite players above you in the depth chart? Please.

He didn't even get a modified NTC or anything. Toronto can move him to literally any team they want to get something in return for him if they want to cut ties with him. Lets see if Toronto will accept Virtanen straight up for Nylander, shall we? Nylander was completely justified and given the circumstances regarding his place in the depth chart and the implications of that position it's entirely reasonable, and I don't like it when players really stick it to their teams.

Also the "miles better" opinion isn't questionable, it's not even an opinion, it's a demonstrable fact. How do you feel about a guy like Gaunce who put up 1/2 of Virtanen's pace with tougher deployment while playing better defensively. Is it questionable if he's as good as Nylander as well because he wasn't sheltered like Nylander was? What about Granlund who scores at a similar pace as Virtanen, is it debatable if he's close to Nylander? Nylander > Virtanen AINEC.

Virtanen has the potential to be a 40+ pt player who plays with speed and can get in on the forecheck and throw hits. He isn't that player right now and it's not even debatable that Nylander is better than that better version of Virtanen. Honestly Virtanen could even be better than a 40-45pt 2nd liner if he added just one move to his toolbox on the rush to balance his attack between going wide and cutting inside, but he hasn't. The reason Horvat is so successful with his lone drag move is because he's good at it and because if they cheat on it he'll take it outside to the net. Virtanen skates real fast, gets angled off and goes around the net every single time. He has potential but he'll never realize it unless he balances his game.

Now if you want to make an argument that a 40pt+ Virtanen making 3m is more valuable than a $7m 60pt+ Nylander on some teams, I'm not sure if it's true but I could entertain it given that I have very different ideas in regards to cap management and roster design than most people. Unfortunately that isn't the situation now and thinking that there is even an argument to be had on who is better between the two is absolutely insane.