Player Discussion Jake Virtanen Part 2

[bandwagonesque]

Imagine arguing that a career high 20 point player is somehow in the same ballpark as 2 players with back to back 60+ point seasons.
Ehlers had as many goals last season as Jake had his entire career.

Yes, these two players are objectively better then Jake.

Be happy that Jake is going to probably be a Hansen type player which will be valuable to any teams bottom 6. However, if you trade that player for a first liner you would make that move 10/10 times.

He's already better than Hansen, and I doubt very much he ends uo a bottom 6 player anywhere.

 

[Intangibos]

He's already better than Hansen, and I doubt very much he ends uo a bottom 6 player anywhere.

No.

 

[bandwagonesque]

No.

Yeah, maybe you're right.

 

[M2Beezy]

Man the last few pages of this thread are garbage. When can we just talk about Virtanen the player please. Hes doing good, stood up for Stecher, beauty pass on the first goal last night, love him, and hes ours

 

[dKs89]

I don't, particularly. That's where the conversation has gone. At the moment I'm responding to someone claiming Virtanen is better.

?
If you're talking about my posts you're making things up. I didn't claim Virtanen was better.
As far as your claim for being a less effective player? This season? That is 100% BS.

Nylander hasn't even played 10 games. Ehlers has 24 pts in 33 games. A 57 point pace. And what would that be? That's what we call regression. And do keep in mind he's doing it on a far better team with stacked talent.

Virtanen has 16 points in 37 games. A 43 point pace. That is massive improvement. Let's take a look at even more stats:

Takeaway/Giveaways:
JV18: 25-12, +13 margin
Ehlers: 16-10, +6 margin

Not the biggest difference but it's clear that Jake causes more chaos with his size and speed to create turnovers.

Hits:
JV18: 74
Ehlers: 13

It's very clear the Jake is the more physically dominant player. He makes his presence felt. When he's on the ice, the other players are not going to get a free ride in the game. Hits also cause turnovers, they create fear, and make people keep their head up. This is a big factor in the game of which JV does excellently while Ehlers is non-existent.

Blocked shots, SH%, Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, PIM, TOI

Jake is setting career highs in all these stats.

Overall, to say Ehlers is a more effective player overall is a 100% fabricated statement. Offensively, he is better. In almost every other facet JV18 is playing better and having more impact. JV18 is much more valuable to this team than Ehlers would be.

Just FYI, Goldobin has 3 less points than Ehlers this season, while on average playing 1 minute less a night, on a worse team. That would mean approximately 28 less minutes when they have played equal games. Pretty equal production offensively.

 

[bandwagonesque]

?
If you're talking about my posts you're making things up. I didn't claim Virtanen was better.
As far as your claim for being a less effective player? This season? That is 100% BS.

Nylander hasn't even played 10 games. Ehlers has 24 pts in 33 games. A 57 point pace. And what would that be? That's what we call regression. And do keep in mind he's doing it on a far better team with stacked talent.

Virtanen has 16 points in 37 games. A 43 point pace. That is massive improvement. Let's take a look at even more stats:

Takeaway/Giveaways:
JV18: 25-12, +13 margin
Ehlers: 16-10, +6 margin

Not the biggest difference but it's clear that Jake causes more chaos with his size and speed to create turnovers.

Hits:
JV18: 74
Ehlers: 13

It's very clear the Jake is the more physically dominant player. He makes his presence felt. When he's on the ice, the other players are not going to get a free ride in the game. Hits also cause turnovers, they create fear, and make people keep their head up. This is a big factor in the game of which JV does excellently while Ehlers is non-existent.

Blocked shots, SH%, Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, PIM, TOI

Jake is setting career highs in all these stats.

Overall, to say Ehlers is a more effective player overall is a 100% fabricated statement. Offensively, he is better. In almost every other facet JV18 is playing better and having more impact. JV18 is much more valuable to this team than Ehlers would be.

Just FYI, Goldobin has 3 less points than Ehlers this season, while on average playing 1 minute less a night, on a worse team. That would mean approximately 28 less minutes when they have played equal games. Pretty equal production offensively.

If you honestly believe that Virtanen is better than Nylander and Ehlers, then no rational argument is likely to convince you otherwise.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

?

Blocked shots, SH%, Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, PIM, TOI

Jake is setting career highs in all these stats.

Just want to address some of the stats you are quoting.

- Blocked shots:
From 0,38 / per game to 0,42 / game. That is just stagnant.

- SH%: Players do not generally double their SH% so this is likely a sign of puck luck instead of improvement.

- Goals: This follows from the SH% point.

- +/-: This is the most useless stat that is followed by the league.


His possession metrics have slightly dipped from last year.



I feel like I keep repeating this:
I like him as a player. I don't think he will become or needs to become a top6 forward for us to be happy with him AS A PLAYER.

He is a entertaining bottom 6er who contributes on the fore-check has a positive impact on possession, and decent shot. He doesn't utilize his physical skills to a great extent but that is who he is.

If he becomes something more, lets be positively surprised together.

 

[dKs89]

If you honestly believe that Virtanen is better than Nylander and Ehlers, then no rational argument is likely to convince you otherwise.

So you're only remark is to post a strawman, and THEN talk about rational arguments? Really top tier irony going on here.

Once again, I never said once that Virtanen is a better player than Nylander or Ehlers. I've merely only stated, that he brings a part of the game that they don't!!!! I have repeatedly said, offensively, they are better than Virtanen. However, in almost every other metric he outperforms them. This is FACT. People continue to only look at goals, assists and points. It's so incredibly narrow minded.

Is Virtanen a better player than either? No. Is he outperforming them this season as an overall, complete player? You 100% can make the argument.

Ehlers is on pace to REGRESS from his past production. Nylander is a wash. I would once again like to remind you, Goldobin has 3 less points than Ehlers on this season!!

 

[Canucks1096]

Virtanen goals break down

2 goals in first 12 games. One of them EN

6 goals in his next 8 games

2 goals in his last 17 games.

Aside from that 8 game streak, a few nice passes here and there and he doesn't do stupid things with the puck anymore. I don't see much of a difference from last year.

 

[Canucks1096]

So you're only remark is to post a strawman, and THEN talk about rational arguments? Really top tier irony going on here.

Once again, I never said once that Virtanen is a better player than Nylander or Ehlers. I've merely only stated, that he brings a part of the game that they don't!!!! I have repeatedly said, offensively, they are better than Virtanen. However, in almost every other metric he outperforms them. This is FACT. People continue to only look at goals, assists and points. It's so incredibly narrow minded.

Is Virtanen a better player than either? No. Is he outperforming them this season as an overall, complete player? You 100% can make the argument.

Ehlers is on pace to REGRESS from his past production. Nylander is a wash. I would once again like to remind you, Goldobin has 3 less points than Ehlers on this season!!

Ehlers is still on pace 58 points. A few points off of his career high.

 

[Canucks1096]

?
If you're talking about my posts you're making things up. I didn't claim Virtanen was better.
As far as your claim for being a less effective player? This season? That is 100% BS.

Nylander hasn't even played 10 games. Ehlers has 24 pts in 33 games. A 57 point pace. And what would that be? That's what we call regression. And do keep in mind he's doing it on a far better team with stacked talent.

Virtanen has 16 points in 37 games. A 43 point pace. That is massive improvement. Let's take a look at even more stats:

Takeaway/Giveaways:
JV18: 25-12, +13 margin
Ehlers: 16-10, +6 margin

Not the biggest difference but it's clear that Jake causes more chaos with his size and speed to create turnovers.

Hits:
JV18: 74
Ehlers: 13

It's very clear the Jake is the more physically dominant player. He makes his presence felt. When he's on the ice, the other players are not going to get a free ride in the game. Hits also cause turnovers, they create fear, and make people keep their head up. This is a big factor in the game of which JV does excellently while Ehlers is non-existent.

Blocked shots, SH%, Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, PIM, TOI

Jake is setting career highs in all these stats.

Overall, to say Ehlers is a more effective player overall is a 100% fabricated statement. Offensively, he is better. In almost every other facet JV18 is playing better and having more impact. JV18 is much more valuable to this team than Ehlers would be.

Just FYI, Goldobin has 3 less points than Ehlers this season, while on average playing 1 minute less a night, on a worse team. That would mean approximately 28 less minutes when they have played equal games. Pretty equal production offensively.

Btw how is 16 in 37 games a 43 point pace?

Jets are a lot better possession team than the Canucks. If you have the puck a lot more and not always chasing the game. There is less opporunties to take away the puck

This is just my opinion I find hitting very overrated. If you are always looking that means you don't have the puck.

Let's make it nice and simple. Lots of teams pay 6 plus million for 60 plus point players. Almost no teams pay that kind of money to 30 point player that do a lot hitting. Why?? Because almost every GM think 60 plus points is a lot more valuable.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Ehlers & Nylander are both zone entry monsters. This is JVs greatest strenght as well (IMO).
Ehlers & Nylander are infinitely more effective with the puck after they have entered the zone.

 

[Mr Plow]

Virtanen goals break down

2 goals in first 12 games. One of them EN

6 goals in his next 8 games

2 goals in his last 17 games.

Aside from that 8 game streak, a few nice passes here and there and he doesn't do stupid things with the puck anymore. I don't see much of a difference from last year.

Compare that to last year:

2 goals in first 19 games

4 goals in next 20 games

2 goals in following 30 games

2 goals in last 6 games

You really don't see much of a difference?

 

[bandwagonesque]

Virtanen goals break down

2 goals in first 12 games. One of them EN

6 goals in his next 8 games

2 goals in his last 17 games.

Aside from that 8 game streak, a few nice passes here and there and he doesn't do stupid things with the puck anymore. I don't see much of a difference from last year.

Okay. The 8 game period happened and those goals count.

 

[Canucks1096]

Okay. The 8 game period happened and those goals count.

Yes it does. That's why I this is more of a hot streak than the 20 to 25 goal scorer that some people see

 

[Regal]

Virtanen goals break down

2 goals in first 12 games. One of them EN

6 goals in his next 8 games

2 goals in his last 17 games.

Aside from that 8 game streak, a few nice passes here and there and he doesn't do stupid things with the puck anymore. I don't see much of a difference from last year.

The difference is the streak. I don't understand the idea of taking out a player's best games to show "who he really is". Sure you have to be careful with paces when a player is just coming off a streak, but bottom 6 players are always streaky. A 15-20 goal scorer isn't going to consistently score once every 4-5 games, and if Jake scores 15-20, that would be a big improvement on previous years

 

[Canucks1096]

Compare that to last year:

2 goals in first 19 games

4 goals in next 20 games

2 goals in following 30 games

2 goals in last 6 games

You really don't see much of a difference?

Some difference but not a lot.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Yes it does. That's why I this is more of a hot streak than the 20 to 25 goal scorer that some people see

Trying watching the games. He's getting enough chances to explain the number of goals he has without trying to find some grounds to discredit them.

 

[Canucks1096]

The difference is the streak. I don't understand the idea of taking out a player's best games to show "who he really is". Sure you have to be careful with paces when a player is just coming off a streak, but bottom 6 players are always streaky. A 15-20 goal scorer isn't going to consistently score once every 4-5 games, and if Jake scores 15-20, that would be a big improvement on previous years

True but bottom 6 don't usually have a stretch of 6 goals in 8 games as well. If they do? They completely fade away later on.

People are calling him 20 to 25 goal scorer already. That 8 game stretch completely out of norm. Now Virtanen has 2 goals in the 17 games. I believe that is the more of the real Jake Virtanen.

 

[Canucks1096]

Trying watching the games. He's getting enough chances to explain the number of goals he has without trying to find some grounds to discredit them.

The season is 37 games old. If more than half of your goals came on a 8 game hot streak. I think that is evidences that proves that his increase in goals in mainly because of a hot streak. Also Like a lot of people have said your shooting percentage don't usually double.

I am season ticket holder. I buy a half season pack every season. So I watched lots of games

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The season is 37 games old. If more than half of your goals came on a 8 game hot streak. I think that is evidences that proves that his increase in goals in mainly because of a hot streak. Also Like a lot of people have said your shooting percentage don't usually double.

I am season ticket holder. I buy a half season pack every season. So I watched lots of games

I don't get why this is so hard for some people to grasp.

It is increasingly looking like people over valued the fact that the puck went in and let that distort their view of how he is actually playing.
Goal scoring is a low event stat thus it is vulnerable to fluctuation.

 

[TruKnyte]

22 year old player becomes valuable and exciting player after being written off as a bust at age 20

HF’s reaction: praise the 22 year old and proceed to bash the next 20 year old being written off as a bust

The concern for me about Joulevi has to do with the amount of injuries he has sustained, which I think are valid. Nothing to do with knee jerk bashing as you seem to imply.

 

[4Twenty]

?
If you're talking about my posts you're making things up. I didn't claim Virtanen was better.
As far as your claim for being a less effective player? This season? That is 100% BS.

Nylander hasn't even played 10 games. Ehlers has 24 pts in 33 games. A 57 point pace. And what would that be? That's what we call regression. And do keep in mind he's doing it on a far better team with stacked talent.

Virtanen has 16 points in 37 games. A 43 point pace. That is massive improvement. Let's take a look at even more stats:

Takeaway/Giveaways:
JV18: 25-12, +13 margin
Ehlers: 16-10, +6 margin

Not the biggest difference but it's clear that Jake causes more chaos with his size and speed to create turnovers.

Hits:
JV18: 74
Ehlers: 13

It's very clear the Jake is the more physically dominant player. He makes his presence felt. When he's on the ice, the other players are not going to get a free ride in the game. Hits also cause turnovers, they create fear, and make people keep their head up. This is a big factor in the game of which JV does excellently while Ehlers is non-existent.

Blocked shots, SH%, Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, PIM, TOI

Jake is setting career highs in all these stats.

Overall, to say Ehlers is a more effective player overall is a 100% fabricated statement. Offensively, he is better. In almost every other facet JV18 is playing better and having more impact. JV18 is much more valuable to this team than Ehlers would be.

Just FYI, Goldobin has 3 less points than Ehlers this season, while on average playing 1 minute less a night, on a worse team. That would mean approximately 28 less minutes when they have played equal games. Pretty equal production offensively.

Ehlers has 16 points in his last 17 games, Jake has 16 in 37, and 6 in 17. To me it looks like one guy had a slow start and one guy had a 8 game heater where he scored 6 goals.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

Nylander and Ehlers have put up top line numbers and are top line players.

Nylander is not putting up top line numbers this year...right now his ego and reputation are doing all the talking. He will surely turn it on down the stretch no doubt be a force come playoff time...but the praise for this guy is over the top at times.

 

[sting101]

Imagine arguing that a career high 20 point player is somehow in the same ballpark as 2 players with back to back 60+ point seasons.
Ehlers had as many goals last season as Jake had his entire career.

Yes, these two players are objectively better then Jake.

Be happy that Jake is going to probably be a Hansen type player which will be valuable to any teams bottom 6. However, if you trade that player for a first liner you would make that move 10/10 times.

I dont think anyone can with a straight face say Jake has been as good as Ehlers Nylander. And even today with Virtanens play and Nylander and Ehlers maintaining the play of the past 2 seasons that gap is fairly significant.

But...last years playoffs did happen where Nylander and Ehlers were flops and Virtanen started to show some dynamic skills at the end of 17/18. What also happened is Ehlers started this year on a horrific drought and Nylander has been in Contract dispute and has 2 assists in 6 games since coming back all while Virtanen is looking like a rare package of a fast physical 20 goal scoring winger who is great at takeaways and good at backchecking. So much improved that his coach is starting to use him to defend leads late in 3rd periods

So what people are seeing is a player in Virtanen in a fairly steep incline to nearly a top6 production wise and 2-3 line tweener to 2 players who were once thought of as 1st line wingers who may be more first 2nd line tweeners and now have something to prove especially come post season

I dont think it's unreasonable for people to be ok with surrendering some production and creativity for a rare type of player who is a hometown kid and provides some tools that you wouldn't get from Ehlers and Nylander. Like you say what is stopping Ehlers and Nylander from developing further? who knows right? But right now....... Jake is trending up while 2 guys are stagnant or slightly down. This is what we use as a predicatable measure for the future and that is advantage Virtanen and something to celebrate.

There was a point in the core development of the 2011 juggernaut that Kesler and Burrows took their games to new levels and that was critical for us becoming a contender. Maybe Horvat and Virtanen become the next Kesler and Burrows?........anyways Jake has certainly established himself as a valuable NHLer and given where he was a year ago this is good news and not really worth looking at as a critical miss in the building of this core and the competitiveness of this team