Player Discussion Jake Virtanen Part 2

[Canucks1096]

Lol so now that Virtanen is getting it together the naysayers who have trashed him for 4 years are making it all about goals and how fluky his goals are. ( not all 10 are fluky either)

This totally ignores the clear improvements in his overall game..that he is now trusted defensively...has always had good advanced stats...is working on and improving his stick handling and passing...is the most physical forward on the team...and the fastest skater on the team at 225 lbs.

Funny how some trust from the coach and decent ice time finally is making a difference.

The trust of the coach, linemates and ice time doesn't have much to do with his numbers.

First 14 games he was getting around 13 minutes of ice. Mainly playing with Sutter and has 7 points

Next 21 games he was getting about 16 minutes of icetime and it was the next game after the Hawks 2 goal game that Green started to use Virtanen on the top 2 lines. Every since then for the most part he had played on the top 2 lines. His ppg actually dropped , he has 8 points in the 21 games. So better linemates and ice time actually made his number worst.

 

[lawrence]

Yes of course

But I am the type of person that calls things the way I see it. I am not bias

Bull shit.

 

[Canucks1096]

Bull ****.

Tell me what I am saying is not accurate.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Tell me what I am saying is not accurate.

That you are not bias. Everyone is bias, there is no such thing as a non bias opinion.

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

Yes

If you look at Virtanen season right now

2 goals in his first 12 games ( 1 EN)
6 goals in his next 8 games
2 goals in the next 15 games.

As of right now this proves to me his production is mainly just a hot streak.

Aside from Virtanen 6 goals in 8 games stretch. I don't see some aa hugh improvement. He is still no more than a 3rd line winger. Before he was Liability and now he is not. Before he give away the puck left right and center now he doesn't. I do see a nice few nice pass here and there. Thats it.

You are obviously welcome to have your own opinion on Jake and if that is not favourable that is fine and respect that. However....to suggest that Jake is simply benefiting from a hot steak ignores some of his advanced stats that suggest otherwise.

Most would agree that Jake needs to be more consistent so your goal breakdown for this season is (somewhat) accurate. The goals and points will increase with time as long as he keeps improving and not regressing. A 20-25 goal season is still achievable and should be seen as production to build on.

There are three areas that the stats are showing that make Jake a much improved player. His giveaways are way down, his shot attempts up and the percentage of shots getting through are way up. This translates to a player that is less of a liability by not giving the puck away as you already highlighted. When Jake is on the ice 5:5 the Canucks have possession more than 50% of the time. The fact he is shooting more and getting more shots through would suggest he has worked on quality as well as quantity which is evidenced in his goals which are mostly on the break-in with a slap or wrist shot.

"He is still no more than a 3rd line winger"

Perhaps...but that is not necessarily a negative. As long as the cap hit is reasonable I will take a 20 goal, good puck possession, big and fast winger on my team. When the injury bug strikes he can fill in on the top 2 lines and is starting to play regular PP minutes.

On the flip side we could also develop JV into an asset that could be moved to improve our other areas that are weak (I am thinking defence here)...if we get a chance to flip JV for a legit top-4 D we would be crazy not to consider a deal like that.

 

[lawrence]

"He is still no more than a 3rd line winger"

Perhaps...but that is not necessarily a negative. As long as the cap hit is reasonable I will take a 20 goal

it's a far cry from "I will take a 4th rounder for him" from his lowest point which was after the 2016 world Juniors when he was called out by the entire country for taking a penalty that lead to the game winner for Finland. He was written off by a lot of fans. 3rd liner is a win, and also compared to Michael Dal Cole and what Haydn Fleury has become, can make an argument with Sam Bennet too.

 

[Canucks1096]

Are there any stat that shows where on the ice are all of Virtanen shots coming from?

Also Virtanen passes are actually leading to shots/scoring chances?

If yes. Can someone find it and post it. I am curious

 

[stampedingviking]

Bull ****.

 

[Shareefruck]

I would disagree with the implication that "lack of trust" was an issue earlier in his career (though I may be misreading that). In my opinion, there was never a stretch in his career where he got less icetime than his play/talent warranted. If anything, the opposite was true, and his development was hurt by coaches/game-plans that had too much trust in him too early.

He's gained the coach's trust and is now starting to get ice-time because he's playing better, period. Pretty much every stretch where he's played well, he's been rewarded with appropriate ice-time (within reason).

 

[Canucks1096]

You are obviously welcome to have your own opinion on Jake and if that is not favourable that is fine and respect that. However....to suggest that Jake is simply benefiting from a hot steak ignores some of his advanced stats that suggest otherwise.

Most would agree that Jake needs to be more consistent so your goal breakdown for this season is (somewhat) accurate. The goals and points will increase with time as long as he keeps improving and not regressing. A 20-25 goal season is still achievable and should be seen as production to build on.

There are three areas that the stats are showing that make Jake a much improved player. His giveaways are way down, his shot attempts up and the percentage of shots getting through are way up. This translates to a player that is less of a liability by not giving the puck away as you already highlighted. When Jake is on the ice 5:5 the Canucks have possession more than 50% of the time. The fact he is shooting more and getting more shots through would suggest he has worked on quality as well as quantity which is evidenced in his goals which are mostly on the break-in with a slap or wrist shot.

"He is still no more than a 3rd line winger"

Perhaps...but that is not necessarily a negative. As long as the cap hit is reasonable I will take a 20 goal, good puck possession, big and fast winger on my team. When the injury bug strikes he can fill in on the top 2 lines and is starting to play regular PP minutes.

On the flip side we could also develop JV into an asset that could be moved to improve our other areas that are weak (I am thinking defence here)...if we get a chance to flip JV for a legit top-4 D we would be crazy not to consider a deal like that.

Where are you getting your advance stats? What advance stat are you looking at? Virtanen cf% is 47% and His FF% is 46%. Both are lower this year vs last year. Virtanen giveaway this year is 12. Last year had Virtanen had 32. He is on pace about 7 less giveaways this year, considering he is playing more this year. This has improved, His shot is up half a shot a game as well, playing more your shot will go up. But Virtanen ice time is up and is not putting more numbers because of it. That has to a little concerning

Anyway to me this is some improvement and not a lot. You think it is a lot of improvement. Not much of point in debating this.

He is on pace 22 goals and 34 points. However being on pace and actually getting there is completing different animal. He still needs 10 goals in his final 46 games to get there. 16 games ago he on pace 32 goals and now it's down 22 goals pace

 

[WestCoast CyberG]

Where are you getting your advance stats? What advance stat are you looking at? Virtanen cf% is 47% and His FF% is 46%. Both are lower this year vs last year. Virtanen giveaway this year is 12. Last year had Virtanen had 32. He is on pace about 7 less giveaways this year, considering he is playing more this year. This has improved, His shot is up half a shot a game as well, playing more your shot will go up. But Virtanen ice time is up and is not putting more numbers because of it. That has to a little concerning

Anyway to me this is some improvement and not a lot. You think it is a lot of improvement. Not much of point in debating this.

He is on pace 22 goals and 34 points. However being on pace and actually getting there is completing different animal. He still needs 10 goals in his final 46 games to get there. 16 games ago he on pace 32 goals and now it's down 22 goals pace

Hockey reference has JV’s advanced stats (all) - CF% 50.6 and FF% 50.4. I believe you are looking at just even strength.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree since you point to improvements in key areas yet still argue his improvement is not good enough.

If you simply don’t like JV as a player that is fair game but can’t deny his numbers are trending in the right direction and just watching him his overall game is looking more confident. This is supported by Green playing him at key times during the game which he didn’t last year.

 

[M2Beezy]

Hockey reference has JV’s advanced stats (all) - CF% 50.6 and FF% 50.4. I believe you are looking at just even strength.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree since you point to improvements in key areas yet still argue his improvement is not good enough.

If you simply don’t like JV as a player that is fair game but can’t deny his numbers are trending in the right direction and just watching him his overall game is looking more confident. This is supported by Green playing him at key times during the game which he didn’t last year.

That guys a good poster but wont back down on his continus arguement against Virtanen. He just cant change his mind at all

I was the biggest basher of Virtanen but cant anymore, hes just made too much progress in his game for me to keep raleing against him

 

[Canuckle1970]

Jake had a terrific game tonight - such a great skater. Too bad he didn't score on that breakaway when he came out of the box.

Loved the takeaway that led to the assist on Motte's goal, and getting in Martel's grill for his head shot on Stech.

 

[DFAC]

Jake had a terrific game tonight - such a great skater. Too bad he didn't score on that breakaway when he came out of the box.

Loved the takeaway that led to the assist on Motte's goal, and getting in Martel's grill for his head shot on Stech.

I was at the game tonight - it's too bad he didn't score on the breakway. The whole arena was on it's feet and was ready to erupt

 

[geebaan]

I’m not afraid to admit I never thought he could be what he is right now. Evander light.

Am I happy? Not while Nylander exists, but I’d say happier than I was last year, and extatic about how wrong I was that he would “be a jack skille clone”.

 

[Intangibos]

Please Jake please just take the f***ing puck to the net once. It's like every single night he gets a rush down the wing and either take a low percentage shot or goes around the net. If he added falling down into his toolbox he would be a carbon copy of Mason Raymond on the rush.

By the way I like Jake and I liked Raymond, but Raymond was one of the most frustrating players to watch on those versions of the Canucks.

 

[DL44]

Please Jake please just take the ****ing puck to the net once. It's like every single night he gets a rush down the wing and either take a low percentage shot or goes around the net. If he added falling down into his toolbox he would be a carbon copy of Mason Raymond on the rush.

By the way I like Jake and I liked Raymond, but Raymond was one of the most frustrating players to watch on those versions of the Canucks.

He's doing a much better job of shooting for the rebound the last few games...
Horvat was inches from cashing it in last game.

Just glad he's not firing those off the rush shots top corner anymore... go up to 14 inches off the ice far side...

 

[Jay Cee]

Hockey reference has JV’s advanced stats (all) - CF% 50.6 and FF% 50.4. I believe you are looking at just even strength.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree since you point to improvements in key areas yet still argue his improvement is not good enough.

If you simply don’t like JV as a player that is fair game but can’t deny his numbers are trending in the right direction and just watching him his overall game is looking more confident. This is supported by Green playing him at key times during the game which he didn’t last year.

Virtanen has always been a decent Corsi player, even with few points. The context, which is always lost on people who look at their spreadsheet is that Virtanen is in a much more enhanced role this year so of course while some things improve it isn't all going to look perfect across the board on the spreadsheet.

 

[VanJack]

Jake was in full beast mode against the Bolts tonight, one of the best teams in the NHL. What's truly astonishing is how creative he's becoming with the puck. He's now becoming a force almost every time he touches the puck in the offensive zone.

At this point in his evolution he's almost at the point where he's driving every line he plays on. Still not at Nylander-Ehlers level yet, but he's closing the gap fast.

 

[PG Canuck]

Jake was in full beast mode against the Bolts tonight, one of the best teams in the NHL. What's truly astonishing is how creative he's becoming with the puck. He's now becoming a force almost every time he touches the puck in the offensive zone.

At this point in his evolution he's almost at the point where he's driving every line he plays on. Still not at Nylander-Ehlers level yet, but he's closing the gap fast.

He is absolutely not closing the gap on Ehlers or Nylander. Those are already proven 60 point players.

Everyone gets pissy when those two are talked about, THEN STOP COMPARING VIRTANEN TO THEM UNNECESSARILY.

A 35pt player who has speed and a little bit of grit is absolutely not close to a 60pt player who has just as much speed and far more talent.

 

[Intangibos]

He's doing a much better job of shooting for the rebound the last few games...
Horvat was inches from cashing it in last game.

Just glad he's not firing those off the rush shots top corner anymore... go up to 14 inches off the ice far side...

I agree, I think players coming down the wing should really just try to bounce it off the pads and hope a player can bang it in. It's not as pretty as a saucer on the 2-on-1 but just mixing it up and going for that play from time to time makes it hard for players and goalies to cheat based on your tendencies.

At this point, that’s how he plays the game. It’s not a bad habit etc. That is literally all he is capable of as his hockey IQ is so low.

Maybe he looks better and is more engaged, but the same massive issues that were holding him back years ago, still are.

Those shots from the corner or bad angles piss me right the **** off. Every single time

It is how he plays the game, but it's still a bad habit. I don't think you need an exceptionally high IQ to take the puck to the net occasionally.

Players really can't get by with only one move, but they don't need that many. They just need to balance their moves with other options that exploit the D if they cheat towards you. Horvat has literally one move, but it's actually two if you think about it. He either drags and cuts inside, or he keeps going and takes it to the net. If they cheat for his drag he goes wide, if they cheat wide he can take it inside. I don't know if I've ever seen Virtanen take the puck inside so defenders can just angle him off until he goes around the net. It's funny because there was an interview with that skills coach he worked with in the off-season who said the exact same thing.

Even without dragging the puck I would be happy if he could stop up to cut in and throw a backhander on goal. Combine that with bouncing it off the pads from time to time and going around the net with speed to centre the puck he has a well balanced set of moves.

Balance is everything in pretty much everything. Competition of all sorts ranging from sports to games of strategy such as chess or poker, and even though it sounds corny, life. Modern poker strategy is very heavily based on a balanced game-theory strategy to prevent yourself from being exploited first rather than trying to exploit opponents. If you're well balanced in your strategies you cannot be exploited. If you have high IQ you can then adjust your strategy to exploit your opponents instead and be even more effective, but having that baseline to deviate from is important and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to have two options that consist of a single move involving puck skills.

On the other hand I'm an armchair GM/Coach/Player so...

 

[Intangibos]

He is absolutely not closing the gap on Ehlers or Nylander. Those are already proven 60 point players.

Everyone gets pissy when those two are talked about, THEN STOP COMPARING VIRTANEN TO THEM UNNECESSARILY.

A 35pt player who has speed and a little bit of grit is absolutely not close to a 60pt player who has just as much speed and far more talent.

I agree with this in a few ways. First of all Virtanen shouldn't be compared to Nylander and Ehlers in regarding his play in general. That's a drafting issue, I don't think we compare Horvat to Monahan nor do we compare McCann to Pastrnak outside (outside of a discussion of Benning's alleged elite drafting, but even then it comes up rarely).

I also don't think people understand the natural variance in scoring among players. Even high scorers deal with swings from season to season, but the fewer points you get the higher that volatility is. Gaunce put up 6 points for a 13 point pace last year. This is less than ideal, but honestly there were a number of times he actually made very good passes on the rush that were then flubbed and the play died. He easily could have put up 9 points in those 37 games and been on a 20 point pace which was Beagle's production. We see this by Gaunce putting up 3 points in 3 games (all scored within 2 games).

For some reason fans expect complete consistency from players as if a PPG player is going to score a single point every game. When they don't you hear about how either they should be able to score against a weak team, or how an elite player should rise to the occasion against elite teams depending on which team held them off the scoresheet that night.

Volatility sucks, but you have to accept it as it's entirely unavoidable. A .933 goalie doesn't let in exactly 2 goals per 30 shots. There is an argument that some players are more consistent than others, but I'm not even sure that's entirely a good thing. Some players are quiet (not bad, this is important, just quiet) and then suddenly explode and carry a team to a victory. If you have a number of these players it will actually balance out to an extent anyway so in the end it's somewhat irrelevant and you might get carried at the right time.

Edit: I just double posted, my bad if someone wants to merge them

 

[sting101]

He is absolutely not closing the gap on Ehlers or Nylander. Those are already proven 60 point players.

Everyone gets pissy when those two are talked about, THEN STOP COMPARING VIRTANEN TO THEM UNNECESSARILY.

A 35pt player who has speed and a little bit of grit is absolutely not close to a 60pt player who has just as much speed and far more talent.

Nylander 2017 vs Virtanen 2018 pace

5v5 goals.....15 .......18
5v5 pts........49........31
TKA.............68.......55
GVA.............54.......26
HITS............21.......164

 

[PG Canuck]

Nylander 2017 vs Virtanen 2018 pace

5v5 goals.....15 .......18
5v5 pts........49........31
TKA.............68.......55
GVA.............54.......26
HITS............21.......164

So Virtanen should have no issue putting up near 60pts then. Let's see how this pans out.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So Virtanen should have no issue putting up near 60pts then. Let's see how this pans out.

Virtanen will never put up as many points as Ehlers,but can impact the game in other ways that Ehlers cannot...I'm surprised that your just looking at points?