Green Snow Storm
Registered User
Gardiner pre back injury was a much better defenceman than Barrie. Don't @ me.
You're shifting goalposts now... you said that he was bad on the PK, and I showed you stats showing otherwise.
Also, only 12 defensmen played 1000 PK minutes over that 5 year span, so you're exagerating there too.
I'm not saying Gardiner is an elite PKer, all I'm saying is he could at least be trusted there. NO chance in hell would Barrie be trusted there.
Gardiner was significantly better (especially defensively) for the Leafs than any season of Barrie's career. Its not even close.
My dislike had been consistent but he really was better than Barrie as a leaf. Small sampleman where was all this Gardiner love when he was actually on the team? This guy got trashed non-stop when he was a Leaf.
Unbelievable
Was having a discussion with a friend about our defensive issues and we started talking about still not having a real shut down defender and the season that Barrie has had/comparisons to Gardiner.
Anyways having had both Gardiner and Barrie on our blue line now, who is/was the better D-Man for us ?
Probably because Gardiner wasn't continually played against the opposing teams top lines, while Rielly and Hainsey were. Gardiner this season is a 3rd line defencemen , playing nearly 4 minutes less in a more defensively structured team and is a -21(dead last by 14), which would be his second worse in his career. Now, don't get me wrong, +- is not the be all end all for defensive statistics, but it gives you at least a decent idea and that's really bad, especially when you know how Carolina plays.2016/17- 2018/19, 5 vs 5, GA/60 of the Leafs
Gardiner- 2.01
Hainsey- 2.49
Zaitsev- 2.64
Rielly- 2.83
If Gardiner was so terrible defensively, then why did the team allowed significantly fewer goals against when he was on ice compare to the rest of the Leafs' top 4 for the most part of the last 3 seasons? You can make a case the Gardiner was guilty of making that occasional, costly turnover but for the large part of the Babcock era Leafs, Gardiner was a very competent 2nd pairing D on offence, defence and especially on the transition.
As for Gardiner being a perennial playoff choke, well that wasn't a thing until his horrible game 7 against Boston 2 seasons ago, prior to that, he actually had a more than decent performance against a very tough Caps team a season prior and was arguably the Leafs best D against the Bruins prior to his game 7 meltdown. I'm not sure how much stock we can put during last year's playoffs as Gardiner was clearly nursing a serious injury and from what I gathered about his performance this season thus far, he hasn't gotten back to his old pre-injury self ever since, but that shouldn't take away from what he actually achieved during his more productive years with the Leafs.
Well not exactly true in either case.
Tyson Barrie is currently #2 in ES minutes/GP behind Morgan Rielly, who is just playing a ridiculous amount of minutes in general this year (24:15 vs. 21:37 for Barrie). He's playing more ES minutes/GP than Muzzin. Is Barrie not sheltered this year then? It is absolutely possible to be sheltered at ES and still be high in ES ice time; it just means you are playing in more of the favourable situations.
Also, Gardiner was usually playing less ES minutes than Rielly. 3/4 years under Babcock, Rielly played more ES minutes on average than Gardiner, the only exception being Gardiner's career year in 2017-2018. Gardiner was fully developed as a defender by that time, while Rielly was still pretty young.
Honestly this should not even be a debate. Neither should be on this team when we are looking at their defensive capabilities, or in general since we have a plus version in Rielly on our team, but Barrie at least brings more of the offense and a RH shot that is capable of playing huge minutes.
C'mon man, this is the Leafs board, everyone here knows Gardiner played a ton of 5 vs 5 minutes (tied with Rielly in avg, 5 vs 5 min last season) for the Leafs and everyone knows Babcock didn't sheltered him like he did Dermott, instead, Gardiner legit got 2nd pairing QOC. Yes I do admit that Hainsey and Rielly got tougher minutes as these guys were the Leafs 1st pair and had to face the top line for most of the nights but even if you take that into consideration, the numbers Gardiner put up still heavily suggest that he was a very reliable defensive Dman for the Leafs.Because he was not trusted to handle any of the shutdown situations that the other guys had to. Hainsey and Zaitsev were usually on the ice against top competition in key situations where we needed to prevent a goal, and Rielly was our #1D so even if he was used more offensively, it was against the other team's best guys more often than not.
Defensively, I would pick neither. Both suck defensively, but in their own ways. I think Barrie on any given night is never great, but is still much better than the lows that Gardiner had far too often, while Gardiner is wildly unpredictable with high highs and low lows. I really do not know which I would pick, but if I were his partner, I think I would rather just pick the guy who is simply incapable. At least you know what you are getting on any given night and how to prepare for it, and which parts of the guys' game you know you will have to cover for every night.
When it comes down to it, both need to be heavily sheltered, pure offensive defensemen to be effective, so I am far more concerned with what they can bring offensively and offensively, the choice is easily Barrie. Gardiner's best offensive season barely cracks Barrie's top 5, with this year even being close to Gardiner's best offensive season despite Barrie being practically useless under Babcock for the first like 20 games of this year. Carolina may give Gardiner one more season to get his crap together, or else Gardiner may end up getting Shattenkirk'ed and fighting for his life in the NHL.
We are not talking about the declining Jake Gardiner of today, Gardiner before his unfortunate back problems played legit top 4 minutes for the Leafs and played a lot of 5 vs 5 minutes to boot (tied for Rielly in TOI/G last year). How many 2nd pairing Dman in the league gives up, on average, .82 goals less per 60 compare to the team's highly though of #1 D, yet said 2nd pairing Dman still gets called a defensive liability?Probably because Gardiner wasn't continually played against the opposing teams top lines, while Rielly and Hainsey were. Gardiner this season is a 3rd line defencemen , playing nearly 4 minutes less in a more defensively structured team and is a -21(dead last by 14), which would be his second worse in his career. Now, don't get me wrong, +- is not the be all end all for defensive statistics, but it gives you at least a decent idea and that's really bad, especially when you know how Carolina plays.