Jake Gardiner vs Tyson Barrie

Tyson Barrie vs Jake Gardiner


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JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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camps? for real? camps where no one is about to hit them at full speed? yeah thats not a way to judge strength on skates
Well that is true. I would take a bet that Gards v Barrie in the corner fighting for a loose puck that Gards comes out of foxhole virtually every time. Of course no one else around as neither would go if they saw a guy who could wreck either.
 
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Walshy7

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Sep 18, 2016
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Well that is true. I would take a bet that Gards v Barrie in the corner fighting for a loose puck that Gards comes out of foxhole virtually every time. Of course no one else around as neither would go if they saw a guy who could wreck either.

maybe gardiner would its really too hard to say becasue when do d men battle in the corner together? i can tell you who'd be better to have to puck coming out of the corner, barrie. Gardiner is much more likely to win a battle then inexplicably give it straight to the opposition his IQ is atrocious
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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maybe gardiner would its really too hard to say becasue when do d men battle in the corner together? i can tell you who'd be better to have to puck coming out of the corner, barrie. Gardiner is much more likely to win a battle then inexplicably give it straight to the opposition his IQ is atrocious
So true
 

Cynical

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Aug 23, 2014
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Having Barrie on this team shows exactly how good Gardiner was. It's too bad fans couldn't look at the overall picture and focused on a giveaway in a game or two. Overall Gardiner is a significantly better player than Barrie and was actually a pretty elite defender and fit in perfectly with this teams offensive transition game.

Barrie cannot defend and has a very low hockey IQ.
 
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Mar 14, 2011
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2016/17- 2018/19, 5 vs 5, GA/60 of the Leafs
Gardiner- 2.01
Hainsey- 2.49
Zaitsev- 2.64
Rielly- 2.83

If Gardiner was so terrible defensively, then why did the team allowed significantly fewer goals against when he was on ice compare to the rest of the Leafs' top 4 for the most part of the last 3 seasons? You can make a case the Gardiner was guilty of making that occasional, costly turnover but for the large part of the Babcock era Leafs, Gardiner was a very competent 2nd pairing D on offence, defence and especially on the transition.

As for Gardiner being a perennial playoff choke, well that wasn't a thing until his horrible game 7 against Boston 2 seasons ago, prior to that, he actually had a more than decent performance against a very tough Caps team a season prior and was arguably the Leafs best D against the Bruins prior to his game 7 meltdown. I'm not sure how much stock we can put during last year's playoffs as Gardiner was clearly nursing a serious injury and from what I gathered about his performance this season thus far, he hasn't gotten back to his old pre-injury self ever since, but that shouldn't take away from what he actually achieved during his more productive years with the Leafs.
 
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DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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Pre back injury, Gardiner all day long defensively. And that isn’t a compliment towards Jake, it’s simply because Barrie is that scarrie in our end.
 

SeaOfBlue

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Aug 1, 2013
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False Bobo.

Its even more hysterical that people think that Gardiner was worse than (or even the same as) Barrie defensively....

Gardiner's worst season defeinsvely was still better than Barrie's best season defensively.

Numbers below
Jake Gardiner:
15-16: 0.78 EV GA/GP; 50.6% 5v5 OZ%; 16:49 5v5 TOI/GP
16-17: 0.65 EV GA/GP; 54% 5v5 OZ%; 17:36 5v5 TOI/GP
17-18: 0.82 EV GA/GP; 47.4% 5v5 OZ%; 18:54 5v5 TOI/GP
18-19: 0.72 EV GA/GP; 48.7% 5v5 OZ%; 18:18 5v5 TOI/GP

AVG: 0.74 EV GA/GP; 50.25 5v5 OZ%; 17:54 5v5 TOI/GP

Tyson Barrie:
16-17: 1.11 EV GA/GP; 56.7% 5v5 OZ%; 18:39 5v5 TOI/GP
17-18: 1.01 EV GA/GP; 61.3% 5v5 OZ%; 17:47 5v5 TOI/GP
18-19: 0.87 EV GA/GP; 63.1% 5v5 OZ%; 16:49 5v5 TOI/GP
19-20: 1.03 EV GA/GP; 56.9% 5v5 OZ%; 19:07 5v5 TOI/GP

AVG: 1.01 EV GA/GP; 59.5% 5v5 OZ%; 18:05 TOI/GP


Not to mention, Gardiner actually played PK minutes for us. Barrie wouldn't ever be trusted in such a situation.

And was really bad at it, which is why those minutes were negligable and only under extremely dire circumstances. Gardiner should not have been on the PK any more than Barrie.
 
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AvroArrow

The way she goes
Jun 10, 2011
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This is like a debate on Sparks vs Hutchison.

It's like choosing between garbage.

That's why i thought it was so interesting. Both used as top 4 guys, very similar play style. Even with Gardiners abysmal game 7, i think i would rather have him than Barrie at this point. Two very similar guys, the expectations for Barrie were so high but this guy has under performed immensely. As much as i dislike Gardiner and wanted him gone, i think I would rather have him on this team than Barrie.
 

The Hanging Jowl

Registered User
Apr 2, 2017
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We won't know until we see Barrie in a playoff series (which may never happen). Gardiner was great regular season (better than Barrie). He wilted under pressure in the playoffs.
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
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And was really bad at it, which is why those minutes were negligable and only under extremely dire circumstances. Gardiner should not have been on the PK any more than Barrie.

Actually, this isn't true. Why do people make stuff up??

Gardiner got scored on 5.98 GA/60 while SH from 2014/15-2018/19, which is 63rd among 242 defensmen with >100 minutes SH.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,773
2016/17- 2018/19, 5 vs 5, GA/60 of the Leafs
Gardiner- 2.01
Hainsey- 2.49
Zaitsev- 2.64
Rielly- 2.83

If Gardiner was so terrible defensively, then why did the team allowed significantly fewer goals against when he was on ice compare to the rest of the Leafs' top 4 for the most part of the last 3 seasons? You can make a case the Gardiner was guilty of making that occasional, costly turnover but for the large part of the Babcock era Leafs, Gardiner was a very competent 2nd pairing D on offence, defence and especially on the transition.

As for Gardiner being a perennial playoff choke, well that wasn't a thing until his horrible game 7 against Boston 2 seasons ago, prior to that, he actually had a more than decent performance against a very tough Caps team a season prior and was arguably the Leafs best D against the Bruins prior to his game 7 meltdown. I'm not sure how much stock we can put during last year's playoffs as Gardiner was clearly nursing a serious injury and from what I gathered about his performance this season thus far, he hasn't gotten back to his old pre-injury self ever since, but that shouldn't take away from what he actually achieved during his more productive years with the Leafs.

Because he was not trusted to handle any of the shutdown situations that the other guys had to. Hainsey and Zaitsev were usually on the ice against top competition in key situations where we needed to prevent a goal, and Rielly was our #1D so even if he was used more offensively, it was against the other team's best guys more often than not.

Defensively, I would pick neither. Both suck defensively, but in their own ways. I think Barrie on any given night is never great, but is still much better than the lows that Gardiner had far too often, while Gardiner is wildly unpredictable with high highs and low lows. I really do not know which I would pick, but if I were his partner, I think I would rather just pick the guy who is simply incapable. At least you know what you are getting on any given night and how to prepare for it, and which parts of the guys' game you know you will have to cover for every night.

When it comes down to it, both need to be heavily sheltered, pure offensive defensemen to be effective, so I am far more concerned with what they can bring offensively and offensively, the choice is easily Barrie. Gardiner's best offensive season barely cracks Barrie's top 5, with this year even being close to Gardiner's best offensive season despite Barrie being practically useless under Babcock for the first like 20 games of this year. Carolina may give Gardiner one more season to get his crap together, or else Gardiner may end up getting Shattenkirk'ed and fighting for his life in the NHL.
 

Hockey Talker29

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Oct 10, 2003
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Barrie is better offensively, and Gardiner is better defensively by a larger margin.

Gardiner is better.

For years people said Gardiner was a problem defensively (incorrect).

Now he's gone, and it's been about as bad a defensive year as we've had.
 

yubbers

Grown Menzez
May 1, 2013
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Jake is a -21 on a +24 team
Barrie is a -8 on a +13 team

They're both terrible defensively. And both thier offensive games dried up making them liabilities.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
The wide divergence of opinions in this thread kinda confirms what the advanced stats tended to show when we acquired him, what I thought then and what I think now - they are more or less equal.
 

Hockey Talker29

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Because he was not trusted to handle any of the shutdown situations that the other guys had to. Hainsey and Zaitsev were usually on the ice against top competition in key situations where we needed to prevent a goal, and Rielly was our #1D so even if he was used more offensively, it was against the other team's best guys more often than not.

Defensively, I would pick neither. Both suck defensively, but in their own ways. I think Barrie on any given night is never great, but is still much better than the lows that Gardiner had far too often, while Gardiner is wildly unpredictable with high highs and low lows. I really do not know which I would pick, but if I were his partner, I think I would rather just pick the guy who is simply incapable. At least you know what you are getting on any given night and how to prepare for it, and which parts of the guys' game you know you will have to cover for every night.

When it comes down to it, both need to be heavily sheltered, pure offensive defensemen to be effective, so I am far more concerned with what they can bring offensively and offensively, the choice is easily Barrie. Gardiner's best offensive season barely cracks Barrie's top 5, with this year even being close to Gardiner's best offensive season despite Barrie being practically useless under Babcock for the first like 20 games of this year. Carolina may give Gardiner one more season to get his crap together, or else Gardiner may end up getting Shattenkirk'ed and fighting for his life in the NHL.

Gardiner regularly led our team in even-strength minutes. He wasn't sheltered at all. It's logically impossible to play the most ES minutes and be sheltered. You can argue that he didn't play the toughest minutes, but the difference between the toughest and Gardiner's minutes would be very small. From 2016 to 2019 Gardiner player more 5v5 minutes per game (and overall minutes) than Rielly.

Most people who think Gardiner was bad defensively have no idea what that actually means. From 2016 to 2019, Gardiner led our team in GF% (including anyone who played 83 games or more, i.e. more than one season). That means, the Leafs outscored the opposite by the greatest margin when he was on the ice. More than Matthews, Marner, Hainsey, Rielly...everyone. If he was bad defensively, this would not occur over a 3-year sample. He's actually quite effective defensively, just not in a very physical manner, which is why people don't realize it.

Gards has an awful PDO this year in Carolina, but it's tough to reconcile that to the back injury. It's possible that it may have significantly affected him, and maybe he is a worse player now. Aging curves can be rough. But his performance for this team the past 3 season was very very good.
 

yubbers

Grown Menzez
May 1, 2013
36,053
5,039
Having Barrie on this team shows exactly how good Gardiner was. It's too bad fans couldn't look at the overall picture and focused on a giveaway in a game or two. Overall Gardiner is a significantly better player than Barrie and was actually a pretty elite defender and fit in perfectly with this teams offensive transition game.

Barrie cannot defend and has a very low hockey IQ.
a game or 2? hahahahahahahaha. That's a good one :p

A game 7 or 2 you meant :) Then there's the 100s others
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
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Actually, this isn't true. Why do people make stuff up??

Gardiner got scored on 5.98 GA/60 while SH from 2014/15-2018/19, which is 63rd among 242 defensmen with >100 minutes SH.

You may want to boost that criteria a little bit, because I can tell you right now that if he was able to sustain that over a real sample size, he'd be playing over 1000 PK minutes over 5 years, not over 100.

The best PKing defensemen (who actually play a lot) and forwards are hovering in the 6-6.5 GA/60 range over their careers. On Carolina, 5.98 GA/60 would be the best rate out of any of their defensemen over 100 minutes except Joel Edmundson, and he is right up there with him too. Better than Pesce (widely regarded as one of the better PKing defensemen in the league), Jaccob Slavin, TVR and Dougie Hamilton. Yet he is dead last on that team in PK time with a measly 8 PK minutes.

Also had better rates than Polak, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Rielly, Hunwick, Muzzin, etc. all of which had significantly more PK minutes than him under 3 different Leafs head coaches?

So either every head coach is an idiot and should be playing guys like Gardiner more often on the PK, or the stat is extremely misleading in small sample sizes.
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
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You may want to boost that criteria a little bit, because I can tell you right now that if he was able to sustain that over a real sample size, he'd be playing over 1000 PK minutes over 5 years, not over 100.

The best PKing defensemen (who actually play a lot) and forwards are hovering in the 6-6.5 GA/60 range over their careers. On Carolina, 5.98 GA/60 would be the best rate out of any of their defensemen over 100 minutes except Joel Edmundson, and he is right up there with him too. Better than Pesce (widely regarded as one of the better PKing defensemen in the league), Jaccob Slavin, TVR and Dougie Hamilton. Yet he is dead last on that team in PK time with a measly 8 PK minutes.

Also had better rates than Polak, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Rielly, Hunwick, Muzzin, etc. all of which had significantly more PK minutes than him under 3 different Leafs head coaches?

So either every head coach is an idiot and should be playing guys like Gardiner more often on the PK, or the stat is extremely misleading in small sample sizes.

You're shifting goalposts now... you said that he was bad on the PK, and I showed you stats showing otherwise.

Also, only 12 defensmen played 1000 PK minutes over that 5 year span, so you're exagerating there too.

I'm not saying Gardiner is an elite PKer, all I'm saying is he could at least be trusted there. NO chance in hell would Barrie be trusted there.

Gardiner was significantly better (especially defensively) for the Leafs than any season of Barrie's career. Its not even close.
 

TheScandal89

Registered User
Jun 26, 2016
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The main difference is one is Left handed, the other is Right. Gardiner is a little better defensively, in the regular season, and Barrie is a little better offensively. But neither is great defensively as we all know.
 

SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
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Gardiner regularly led our team in even-strength minutes. He wasn't sheltered at all. It's logically impossible to play the most ES minutes and be sheltered. You can argue that he didn't play the toughest minutes, but the difference between the toughest and Gardiner's minutes would be very small. From 2016 to 2019 Gardiner player more 5v5 minutes per game (and overall minutes) than Rielly.

Well not exactly true in either case.

Tyson Barrie is currently #2 in ES minutes/GP behind Morgan Rielly, who is just playing a ridiculous amount of minutes in general this year (24:15 vs. 21:37 for Barrie). He's playing more ES minutes/GP than Muzzin. Is Barrie not sheltered this year then? It is absolutely possible to be sheltered at ES and still be high in ES ice time; it just means you are playing in more of the favourable situations.

Also, Gardiner was usually playing less ES minutes than Rielly. 3/4 years under Babcock, Rielly played more ES minutes on average than Gardiner, the only exception being Gardiner's career year in 2017-2018. Gardiner was fully developed as a defender by that time, while Rielly was still pretty young.

Honestly this should not even be a debate. Neither should be on this team when we are looking at their defensive capabilities, or in general since we have a plus version in Rielly on our team, but Barrie at least brings more of the offense and a RH shot that is capable of playing huge minutes.
 

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