JasonRoseEh
Registered User
- Oct 23, 2018
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There is zero case for Malkin ahead of Oveckhin going into this season, none.Easily no.
McDavid, Kucherov, Crosby, MacKinnon, Kane. Malkin knocking on the door.
There is zero case for Malkin ahead of Oveckhin going into this season, none.Easily no.
McDavid, Kucherov, Crosby, MacKinnon, Kane. Malkin knocking on the door.
Seems more like the same old one-sided arguments without much if any debate (I think your lack of adequate criteria for the poll is what's causing this...everyone gets to decide their own criteria for "top 5 forward" and thus it's not a very insightful poll)Wow, as the OP I didn't expect a 4x platinum thread with this. Huge debate going on here.
A poll with clear criteria was just done on this issue (with Ovechkin taking 84% of the votes) Who is the best goal scorer in the NHL?Matthews scores goals at a better rate than everyone else. He is the best goal-scorer. It's ridiculously simple.
Yeah, I know, the guy started it because he was having a fit in this thread.A poll with clear criteria was just done on this issue (with Ovechkin taking 84% of the votes) Who is the best goal scorer in the NHL?
You "don't care at all" so much that you've posted 51 times in this poll alone...and the best goalscorer poll shows most don't support your opinionAgain, I don't care at all what an uninformed group in the poll forum thinks, especially when most don't support their opinion.
Yes. Which is why it's important to look at who does that the best, and not look at who is best at getting PP time.
Nope, it shows what he has actually done over a big sample.
Matthews scores goals at a better rate than everyone else. He is the best goal-scorer. It's ridiculously simple.
Actually, it's like giving one racer a 20m head start, and then claiming that racer is better than Usain Bolt because he crossed the finish line in 1st place.
How about Elite PK, #1 Faceoff guy in the NHL and great defense vs unplugged controller?
I posted once, and then had multiple people demand I tell them who the best goal-scorer is, and then I've responded to multiple people, defending my position with evidence and explanation while they (mostly the usual anti-Leaf trolls) use baseless attacks and misrepresentation.You "don't care at all" so much that you've posted 51 times in this poll alone...
It shows a small subsection of users in this poll forum on this site chose to vote that way, which is meaningless.and the best goalscorer poll shows most don't support your opinion
This is false. Nothing I have said is untrue. Polls do not determine reality. That fallacious argument called argumentum ad populum has already been pointed out.The " logic and reason and context" I see shows your statements I quoted directly above to be untrue
Why aren’t you arguing a counter position specific to the argument in question?
Your argument, from what I can glean, is that you’re part of a majority and dumbfounded that you and your majority could be wrong.
I replied to your similar commment to me and was curious for your thoughts to my reply.
My counter argument? That Ovechkin has scored way more goals than Matthews. It’s truly as simple as that.
The last two years:
Ovechkin goals 18/19 - 51
Matthews goals 18/19 - 37
Ovechkin GPG 18/19 - 0,63
Matthews GPG 18/19 - 0,54
Ovechkin goals 17/18 - 49
Matthews goals 17/18 - 34
Ovechkin GPG 17/18 - 0,60
Matthews GPG 17/18 - 0,55
Even with his weak 16/17 Ovechkin has 133 goals to 111 and 0,54 to 052 GPG vs Matthews since entered the league. I just don't see Matthews case yet. He have been beaten in both ppg and goals the last two years. Ovi is the better goalscorer. Matthews might pass him this year and take over as the best goal scorer in the league, but he hasn't been a better goalscorer than Ovi the last 3 years and Ovechkin is the favourite before the seasons start.
Nope, it's pretty simple.You continue to overcomplicate things.
The answer most years was Ovechkin because he was the best goal-scorer. Now, we have a better goal-scorer, and despite not being able to fully show it in raw numbers due to circumstances out of his control over the last 2 years, he is the safer pick to put up more goals, especially as he enters his prime.Who will score more goals this year? The answer most years ends up being Ovechkin and hence he is called the best goal scorer.
No, I'm saying he has scored at a better rate.All you're really saying is "yes but - Matthews could score more".
He didn't.if Ovechkin earns more ice time than Matthews
Matthews did not start the race slow though. He is the fastest runner over that 100m. Period. The only thing putting Ovechkin ahead is that he got advantages that other racers did not get; essentially like starting further ahead.Finally your response to the sprinter analogy is also flawed. Its more akin to the 2nd sprinter having a bad start and ending up 20m behind and losing despite racing fast after the start.
In the sports world, having advantages that others do not is usually called cheating, because everybody in the sports world knows that comparing two people under different circumstances to determine "best" is the incorrect way to evaluate.
No, that's not what I said. Please read the actual post next time.Now Ovechkin is cheating.
If that’s your argument, then that should be an accurate description of the majority’s (that you’ve cited) argument, right?
But from what I’ve read in this thread, there are some on the opposite side of the member under scrutiny who aren’t arguing career goals in total - that’s kind of beside the point in this poll - but something different, as lists of top current players would indicate.
It’s a poll seeking present value, and at a stretch recent value, isn’t it? If it’s a top 5 forward of all time poll, again, that seems silly. Obviously it’s contextualized to balance against Connor McDavid and Auston Matthews, not Gretzky and Lemieux.
So, whatever majority you’re citing doesn’t seem present in your argument/reply (the other one other than the appeal to the people that is) to the member in question, or in response to me where you asked and answered your preferred question and your preferred answer for me.
This to say, in each instance (ie A career based argument in a present day value poll or , and especially ad populum) you and “You” have nothing to ridicule anyone about if having a reasonable, sound position commensurate with the specific topic is of any interest... to you and “You”.
While some are clearly less intelligent, it has more to do with being uninformed. Some people don't have the facts, and some people find it hard to accept those facts when it runs counter to flawed evaluation techniques that they grew up using. Especially with players that the NHL made sure kids grew up idolizing.
Adding context to stats has nothing to do with Matthews or any other player. Adding context to stats is just the proper way to evaluate.Or, we don’t put nearly as much stock into P/60 like you do. You also wouldn’t put nearly as much stock into it if it wasn’t the only stat that makes it look like Matthews is a top 5 player. You’ll stop using it the second it shows otherwise.
Adding context to stats has nothing to do with Matthews or any other player. Adding context to stats is just the proper way to evaluate.
It does not. Projecting off of raw production requires a ton of assumptions.Problem is your context requires assumptions.
It does not. Projecting off of raw production requires a ton of assumptions.
No it doesn’t
Ovechkin scored more goals than Matthews. What’s the assumption here? He helped his team put the puck in the net more often than Matthews did. Where’s the assumption there?
Matthews scores at a better rate than Ovechkin, sure. Now we have to ASSUME that Matthews would keep that same production rate if given more ice time. Which is not a fact.
If I’m not mistaken, did Tyler Ennis not score at a better ESP/60 than Matthews this past season?
Among other things, you are assuming that multiple circumstances for the players will remain constant, even though they are essentially guaranteed not to be.What’s the assumption here?
No. Not even close.If I’m not mistaken, did Tyler Ennis not score at a better ESP/60 than Matthews this past season?
Among other things, you are assuming that multiple circumstances for the players will remain constant, even though they are essentially guaranteed not to be.
No. Not even close.
Nope, it's pretty simple.
The answer most years was Ovechkin because he was the best goal-scorer. Now, we have a better goal-scorer, and despite not being able to fully show it in raw numbers due to circumstances out of his control over the last 2 years, he is the safer pick to put up more goals, especially as he enters his prime.
No, I'm saying he has scored at a better rate.
He didn't.
Matthews did not start the race slow though. He is the fastest runner over that 100m. Period. The only thing putting Ovechkin ahead is that he got advantages that other racers did not get; essentially like starting further ahead.
In the sports world, having advantages that others do not is usually called cheating, because everybody in the sports world knows that comparing two people under different circumstances to determine "best" is the incorrect way to evaluate.
Ovechkin scored more goals than Matthews last season. I have never argued against this. This does not automatically make him the better goal-scorer. Context needs to be applied like it does in every situation.I’m asking about what’s the assumption that LAST season Ovechkin scored more goals that Matthews?
I'm looking at the numbers right now. You're wrong. It's not close.Quant Hockey tells me that Ennis had a better esg/60 than Matthews IIRC