I think the Wings have turned the corner

[Frk It]

Get real.
We've been tanking for 4-5 years.
We were the WORST team in hockey by a country mile and our improvement program?
Bobby Ryan.
Sam Gagner.
Jon Merril.
and Thomas Greiss.

When you're the worst team in hockey by like .200 pct, and that's your offseason? You are tanking.

You're a fish - swimming at the bottom of the f***ing tank.

And we're basically doing it again this year.

So let's just say we chased every big UFA that has hit the market the last few years.

How many do you think we would have landed?

How much better of a team do you think we would be with them? Enough to justify the bloated cap number?

I am not seeing the alternative path we should have taken. You say Yzerman is tanking. I am thinking he is doing what is reasonable given what he inherited and where this team is.

 

[BinCookin]

Getting into a Semantical debate over the definition of the word tanking... is pointless and I consider it Trolling at this point.

But here is a train of thought that we can discuss.

Arizona and Buffalo have clearly embraced a new rebuild strategy of acquiring younger pieces and draft picks.

Does anyone here think Detroit will perform worse than them this season?
Does anyone think we should actively try to perform worse than them to get our franchise center? (By this I mean by the GM making moves to ensure this happens)

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So let's just say we chased every big UFA that has hit the market the last few years.

How many do you think we would have landed?

How much better of a team do you think we would be with them? Enough to justify the bloated cap number?

I am not seeing the alternative path we should have taken. You say Yzerman is tanking. I am thinking he is doing what is reasonable given what he inherited and where this team is.

And he will say that is tanking. It’s not worth the argument because he’s got a ludicrously dogmatic look at this.

Partly because he doesn’t think tanking is evil. But also because it’s been made very apparent that he’s following if you’re not first you’re last. If you’re not the prohibitive favorite, you should be selling assets is the refrain

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Getting into a Semantical debate over the definition of the word tanking... is pointless and I consider it Trolling at this point.

But here is a train of thought that we can discuss.

Arizona and Buffalo have clearly embraced a new rebuild strategy of acquiring younger pieces and draft picks.

Does anyone here think Detroit will perform worse than them this season?
Does anyone think we should actively try to perform worse than them to get our franchise center? (By this I mean by the GM making moves to ensure this happens)

There is a very very low chance we will finish behind them. I won't say 0% because anything can happen: bad injury, an unexpected breakout of a player, etc. but I have a hard time conceiving of it.

And there is no reason we should be shooting for being the worst team in the NHL for two very simple reasons:

1. Being the worst team in the NHL does not guarantee you the Top Pick. The entire lotto system is built around that very concept to prevent exactly what BUF and ARZ are doing. We have unfortunately been on the wrong side of this. I imagine there were plenty of teams who finished dead last who weren't rewarded with the 1OA.

2. We are in moving into Year 4 of this rebuild; and not seeing some movement forward is going to start seriously impacting the overall morale and motivation of our young players. I truly believe in the idea of "learning to win" and consequently, there is "learning to lose". You lose long enough, collectively as a group, you begin to share a losing mentality. Not like "Oh, we suck and I'm not going to try" - just that nagging feeling that you're tied in the 3rd period with less than 10 minutes, and you just of feel that you're not going to win it in the end. No different than having that "winner's mentality" or "learn to win" - where you have that confidence to close it out and pull it off for your team, etc. Our prospects are professional athletes, sure, but they are also young and they are human. They need to feel supported, they need to feel rewarded for their hard work, and they need to know that this matters.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Getting into a Semantical debate over the definition of the word tanking... is pointless and I consider it Trolling at this point.

But here is a train of thought that we can discuss.

Arizona and Buffalo have clearly embraced a new rebuild strategy of acquiring younger pieces and draft picks.

Does anyone here think Detroit will perform worse than them this season?
Does anyone think we should actively try to perform worse than them to get our franchise center? (By this I mean by the GM making moves to ensure this happens)

I don't. I just don't think spending futures to make sure it doesn't happen is a dumb idea.
As for turning the corner? I don't get why someone would think that. We are still a bottom feeder team. None of Yzerman's prospects have even made the team. There's a chance that we add one this year. One. Next year we add 2. We don't have any centers of consequence in the organization. We don't have a single franchise player. Zero identity.
We are a long, long way from turning any corners. I seriously doubt Larkin, Bert, Hronek, Vrana are still around when and if they contend again.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

There is a very very low chance we will finish behind them. I won't say 0% because anything can happen: bad injury, an unexpected breakout of a player, etc. but I have a hard time conceiving of it.

And there is no reason we should be shooting for being the worst team in the NHL for two very simple reasons:

1. Being the worst team in the NHL does not guarantee you the Top Pick. The entire lotto system is built around that very concept to prevent exactly what BUF and ARZ are doing. We have unfortunately been on the wrong side of this. I imagine there were plenty of teams who finished dead last who weren't rewarded with the 1OA.

2. We are in moving into Year 4 of this rebuild; and not seeing some movement forward is going to start seriously impacting the overall morale and motivation of our young players. I truly believe in the idea of "learning to win" and consequently, there is "learning to lose". You lose long enough, collectively as a group, you begin to share a losing mentality. Not like "Oh, we suck and I'm not going to try" - just that nagging feeling that you're tied in the 3rd period with less than 10 minutes, and you just of feel that you're not going to win it in the end. No different than having that "winner's mentality" or "learn to win" - where you have that confidence to close it out and pull it off for your team, etc. Our prospects are professional athletes, sure, but they are also young and they are human. They need to feel supported, they need to feel rewarded for their hard work, and they need to know that this matters.

Who are the players on the team right now that you think will be on the team 7 years from now? I'm thinking maybe Zadina and Ras? Outside chance Larkin, Vrana, Hronek? Who is the core that's going to be permanently damaged by trying to get at least one franchise player?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Athanasiou wasn’t going to be re-signed by us so we traded him, green either. I don’t see how you don’t understand that trading expiring contracts ISNT what Buffalo did. What we are doing is what every franchise has ever done in a down period, which is rebuild. Tanking is literally destroying your own teams morale and kids to try and succeed in one or two drafts. We have not done that, in fact last year all of those signings you are complaining about made us vastly better and we went from the worst team in the league to like 6th.

Ummm....Yzerman's entire strategy was tanking. The difference between what he did and what Buffalo did is that they got franchise prospects and all Yzerman got was a winger.

 

[golffuul]

Ummm....Yzerman's entire strategy was tanking. The difference between what he did and what Buffalo did is that they got franchise prospects and all Yzerman got was a winger.

Not at all. What he had, for a roster, when he got the job, was simply that bad. That he has improved it with every year, is not the strategy of someone who is deliberately trying to bottom out a franchise.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Who are the players on the team right now that you think will be on the team 7 years from now? I'm thinking maybe Zadina and Ras? Outside chance Larkin, Vrana, Hronek? Who is the core that's going to be permanently damaged by trying to get at least one franchise player?

Not in 7 - I think the window is probably open before then; but it is that group - it's Zadina, Ras, Larkin, Vrana, and Honerk. And remember, those guys have already been around since 2018 (excluding Vrana); they already have three years of pretty frustrating losing/tanking

 

[MBH]

Athanasiou wasn’t going to be re-signed by us so we traded him, green either. I don’t see how you don’t understand that trading expiring contracts ISNT what Buffalo did. What we are doing is what every franchise has ever done in a down period, which is rebuild. Tanking is literally destroying your own teams morale and kids to try and succeed in one or two drafts. We have not done that, in fact last year all of those signings you are complaining about made us vastly better and we went from the worst team in the league to like 6th.

That's your NARROW definition of tanking.

Tanking is losing for draft high picks.
That's what we've done.
We've made no serious moves to improve because club leadership is happy to tank.

That's tanking.

Nah - nobody was demoralized by that.
Dylan Larkin's career went sideways. No biggie.

5 Straight Years of Top 10 Picks.
That's Tanking.
We've got another one coming so that will be 6 straight - one behind the Oilers.

 

[DetroitRed]

Playoff contenders look for those expiring contracts, just like we did, every year around the trade deadline and the trade deadline trades generate buzz for the NHL, and thereby generate revenue for the NHL which the NHL banks on.

Those contenders aren't looking to give up a lot because they want to be able to compete in the playoffs. Hence, they trade draft picks.

So, if trading players for draft picks is tanking, and I think it is the number one thing we could point to as actual evidence of tanking, then the NHL not only encourages it, but is built around it.

The NHL is built around tanking: If deadline trades are the best evidence of tanking and the NHL wanted to stop tanking, then the best way to stop it would be to simply not allow those trades. We know the lottery doesn't stop it.

The Larkin thing is pure speculation. A lot of guys have great careers on bad teams, so I'm not even sure it's an excuse he would use. I think also, he knows how the NHL works. He knows he came in during a rebuild and had the option to go elsewhere. As it stands, he's the captain of his hometown team.

 

[Hen Kolland]

That's your NARROW definition of tanking.

Tanking is losing for draft high picks.
That's what we've done.
We've made no serious moves to improve because club leadership is happy to tank.

That's tanking.
View attachment 459478
Nah - nobody was demoralized by that.
Dylan Larkin's career went sideways. No biggie.

5 Straight Years of Top 10 Picks.
That's Tanking.
We've got another one coming so that will be 6 straight - one behind the Oilers.

Since you are an all knowing source, certainly you will be able to draw the similarities between the loosely applied definitions of tanking and rebuilding, right? Probably not.

By your definition, anything short of being aggressive and throwing money around aimlessly trying to buy a contender is considered tanking. f*** the financial implications, f*** cap flexibility, f*** building a foundation, f*** everything. We are all extremely well versed in your disapproval of anything that isn't your own concept of what is correct.

When the team is allowing bad contracts and bad players to expire from the roster, allowing the drafted kids to develop and not oversaturating the roster with mediocre players on additional negative value contracts, or overpaying quality players on long term negative value contracts that handcuff the franchise, this isn't tanking. It's being bad and rebuilding organically. And yes, that comes with a lot of high picks when the malfeasance of the previous management staff has pinned the team under piles and piles of shit that takes a decade to dig out from.

You want to call it implicit tanking and bastardize people for enduring an "unnecessary process", other people want to call it a necessary evil. However you want to skin it, this is the reality of what the team set out to do in 2017 and beyond. Act surprised or as if you've been wronged as a fan in the process, nobody cares. This is just the reality that we live in and there's no sense in trying to cut it short now. We've watched nearly a decade of hockey that entailed the franchise eroding with no ability to stop it that slowly transitioned into a deconstruction, and now we are nearing the point where being increasingly aggressive makes sense.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

There isn't a point in continuing the argument. No matter the argument used, he's not going to bend. And if you put forth an argument, it's trying to curtail discussion, because the discussion is not going the way he wants in that vein.

The main difference inbetween a tank and the others though is that a team that is tanking does not trade a 2nd round pick for Nick Leddy. If you're trying to be bad, you're not dealing a 2nd rounder for pretty much anything. You're definitely not trading a second pick like that to move up in the draft. You also aren't continuing to trade early 20s prospects who are stalling for other slightly older prospects who stalled elsewhere.

Yzerman hasn't had the assets to really go balls deep into a huge transaction. The biggest was Mantha and my god, he made the deal and came out with a ton of value. He will make moves when they've got the assets to do so. He's not going to be so hyper aggressive as to leave himself no opportunity to recover if the deal doesn't work out. That was something Holland did by the end with some of the really big moves. Had the Wings planned a backup to not getting Suter, we don't scramble and give Carlo Colaiacovo 2y/5M and waste a compliance buyout on him after 6 games played.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Not in 7 - I think the window is probably open before then; but it is that group - it's Zadina, Ras, Larkin, Vrana, and Honerk. And remember, those guys have already been around since 2018 (excluding Vrana); they already have three years of pretty frustrating losing/tanking

I don't see the window opening until they have ripened some centers that we don't even have yet. If we drated 2 slam dunks next year we're still not contending sooner than 7 years from now and that would mean the center that were drafted next year were elite NHL centers at 23. We better get some McDavids if that's happening.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Not at all. What he had, for a roster, when he got the job, was simply that bad. That he has improved it with every year, is not the strategy of someone who is deliberately trying to bottom out a franchise.

He hasn't improved it every year in any significant way. This team still sucks really, really bad. He has plugged holes with slugs. He hasn't added significant talent at all unless you consider swapping AA for Fabbri as a massive upgrade.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

There isn't a point in continuing the argument. No matter the argument used, he's not going to bend. And if you put forth an argument, it's trying to curtail discussion, because the discussion is not going the way he wants in that vein.

The main difference inbetween a tank and the others though is that a team that is tanking does not trade a 2nd round pick for Nick Leddy. If you're trying to be bad, you're not dealing a 2nd rounder for pretty much anything. You're definitely not trading a second pick like that to move up in the draft. You also aren't continuing to trade early 20s prospects who are stalling for other slightly older prospects who stalled elsewhere.

Yzerman hasn't had the assets to really go balls deep into a huge transaction. The biggest was Mantha and my god, he made the deal and came out with a ton of value. He will make moves when they've got the assets to do so. He's not going to be so hyper aggressive as to leave himself no opportunity to recover if the deal doesn't work out. That was something Holland did by the end with some of the really big moves. Had the Wings planned a backup to not getting Suter, we don't scramble and give Carlo Colaiacovo 2y/5M and waste a compliance buyout on him after 6 games played.

Yzerman tanked. He just doesn't have anything significant to show for it. Now he's admitting that failed and hoping to find David Pastrnak. This rebuild is set back significantly by the failure to find franchise players. If you plan to build around a winger he better be Ovechkin.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Yzerman tanked. He just doesn't have anything significant to show for it. Now he's admitting that failed and hoping to find David Pastrnak. This rebuild is set back significantly by the failure to find franchise players. If you plan to build around a winger he better be Ovechkin.

Well since you're such a savant when it comes to roster construction, why don't you tell us all the franchise altering players that the Red Wings missed out on with Yzerman running the team. Please educate us all.

 

[Frk It]

Yzerman tanked. He just doesn't have anything significant to show for it. Now he's admitting that failed and hoping to find David Pastrnak. This rebuild is set back significantly by the failure to find franchise players. If you plan to build around a winger he better be Ovechkin.

Whose burner account are you? I have a few guesses.

 

[sepster]

Whose burner account are you? I have a few guesses.

No kidding, this account has set the record for shortest time between "Joined" and "Ignore", a mere 4 days. Congratulations.

 

[Henkka]

No kidding, this account has set the record for shortest time between "Joined" and "Ignore", a mere 4 days. Congratulations.

Same here.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

I don't see the window opening until they have ripened some centers that we don't even have yet. If we drated 2 slam dunks next year we're still not contending sooner than 7 years from now and that would mean the center that were drafted next year were elite NHL centers at 23. We better get some McDavids if that's happening.

I guess I don't understand the "at least seven years" thing. But it might have more to do with that the fact you don't believe we have any franchise talent right now. This might be a misunderstanding on semantics here but I'm guessing we do have guys we would consider critical to our eventual team that would be competing i.e. Seider, Edvinsson, Cossa, Raymond, and probably Zadina, Larkin, Vrana, Hronek - with good role development (since those guys have to come from somewhere as well) - in guys like Ras, Smith, etc

Now are some of those guys replaceable? Sure. But I think we're missing less than you are purposing.

As for waiting seven years; I'm not sure about that. Toews, who is a good C - close to elite? Won in three years from draft. Crosby, who fair, all time great, similarly in three I think. And that's not really looking at teams that made deep runs and are in contention like...MTL this year was powered by Suzuki and Kotkaniemi - both in the league less than 4 years. Forsberg was in 2012 - 4 years later he was in the SCF as a 1C. With the caliber of C we're talking about in terms a Top 5 pick, I don't know if it's a "7 years before we do anything situation". There are plenty of examples of Top 10 C's coming in a pushing their teams to Conference Championships or later in 4 or less years

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I guess I don't understand the "at least seven years" thing. But it might have more to do with that the fact you don't believe we have any franchise talent right now. This might be a misunderstanding on semantics here but I'm guessing we do have guys we would consider critical to our eventual team that would be competing i.e. Seider, Edvinsson, Cossa, Raymond, and probably Zadina, Larkin, Vrana, Hronek - with good role development (since those guys have to come from somewhere as well) - in guys like Ras, Smith, etc

Now are some of those guys replaceable? Sure. But I think we're missing less than you are purposing.

As for waiting seven years; I'm not sure about that. Toews, who is a good C - close to elite? Won in three years from draft. Crosby, who fair, all time great, similarly in three I think. And that's not really looking at teams that made deep runs and are in contention like...MTL this year was powered by Suzuki and Kotkaniemi - both in the league less than 4 years. Forsberg was in 2012 - 4 years later he was in the SCF as a 1C. With the caliber of C we're talking about in terms a Top 5 pick, I don't know if it's a "7 years before we do anything situation". There are plenty of examples of Top 10 C's coming in a pushing their teams to Conference Championships or later in 4 or less years

He’s trolling. He’s using the fact that it took Tampa from 2010 when Yzerman showed up until 19-20 to win the Cup. Ignoring every bit of evidence provided that contradicts what he’s interested in sharing.

I wouldn’t be so certain if there was anything more to this argument than a broken record about “Yzerman didn’t acquire any” and “it takes this time to do whatever”.

The way of the league now with guys getting extended on their second contract at 9-12m (like McDavid, Matthews, etc.), if you’re waiting 7-10 years to compete? Your window is slammed shut before it starts. Under the cap, it is easier to win when you best players are still cheap.

I mean, his Ur example is Tampa. Can you honestly make the argument that they didn’t do anything for seven years when they were playing in the Cup Final or Conference final in four of six years and one of the times they missed was a 62-win team that got bum rushed in the first round.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Well since you're such a savant when it comes to roster construction, why don't you tell us all the franchise altering players that the Red Wings missed out on with Yzerman running the team. Please educate us all.

I didn't say he picked the wrong players or that I knew better than the scouts who to pick but I do know I have never seen a Stanley Cup champ with zero center depth. Yzerman tanked and he didn't have luck at all. So what. We still need centers. So now he has declared that they're moving on. Trading for vet rentals to get a tiny bit better. We still don't have centers. He still has to address that. How are we turning the corner when we haven't gotten the pieces needed? Are we really confident that they're just going to grab an elite center late in the draft in the next year? If not then the rebuild has stalled.

 

[Ricelund]

mindfly?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I guess I don't understand the "at least seven years" thing. But it might have more to do with that the fact you don't believe we have any franchise talent right now. This might be a misunderstanding on semantics here but I'm guessing we do have guys we would consider critical to our eventual team that would be competing i.e. Seider, Edvinsson, Cossa, Raymond, and probably Zadina, Larkin, Vrana, Hronek - with good role development (since those guys have to come from somewhere as well) - in guys like Ras, Smith, etc

Now are some of those guys replaceable? Sure. But I think we're missing less than you are purposing.

As for waiting seven years; I'm not sure about that. Toews, who is a good C - close to elite? Won in three years from draft. Crosby, who fair, all time great, similarly in three I think. And that's not really looking at teams that made deep runs and are in contention like...MTL this year was powered by Suzuki and Kotkaniemi - both in the league less than 4 years. Forsberg was in 2012 - 4 years later he was in the SCF as a 1C. With the caliber of C we're talking about in terms a Top 5 pick, I don't know if it's a "7 years before we do anything situation". There are plenty of examples of Top 10 C's coming in a pushing their teams to Conference Championships or later in 4 or less years

But we don't have any of those types of players unless you're suggesting Holland did the heavy lifting and Larkin, Veleno, Rasmussen are top 3 centers on a cup team. I would have to disagree.
So going forward we apparently are giving up on the top of the draft. We're trading assets to get marginally better. That leaves luck and development as your strategy and that ain't happening fast especially when you're trading picks for rentals.