I think the Wings have turned the corner

[ShippinItDaily]

He signed a 2 year deal with one of the worst teams in the league and he's not in any way comparable to Panarin. That's absurd. He is a defensive liability who benefited from elite linemates. He'll be here less than 2 years and then be traded for a draft pick if there's a market. Offense only depth players generally don't attract much interest at the deadline.

Not comparing him to Panarin. I'm reminding people that credit for results can be hard to distribute in hockey. Just because someone has success with a star doesn't mean that they can't have success without that star as well. Also, not everyone posts their best results playing with star players. That situation generally presents itself with harder QoC minutes.



This doesn't look like the profile of a defensive liability to me.

Finally, I imagine he came here for the opportunity to further prove himself and grow. I can't blame more competitive teams for wanting more established players, but that doesn't mean that they all made the right bets.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Not comparing him to Panarin. I'm reminding people that credit for results can be hard to distribute in hockey. Just because someone has success with a star doesn't mean that they can't have success without that star as well. Also, not everyone posts their best results playing with star players. That situation generally presents itself with harder QoC minutes.



This doesn't look like the profile of a defensive liability to me.

Finally, I imagine he came here for the opportunity to further prove himself and grow. I can't blame more competitive teams for wanting more established players, but that doesn't mean that they all made the right bets.

He is an offense first player. He's 25 and has like 55 NHL games. He might be a slight upgrade over the skeleton of Filipula but he's not a long term solution. He's just not. I will be surprised if Veleno doesn't take his spot.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

He is an offense first player. He's 25 and has like 55 NHL games. He might be a slight upgrade over the skeleton of Filipula but he's not a long term solution. He's just not. I will be surprised if Veleno doesn't take his spot.

In your mind, does offense first mean that a player can't also bring defensive qualities to the table? Because if it's offense first, with defense also included, then why in the world is there any reason to knock the players defense?

On what authority do you know what he will be in the next two years? Do you mind sharing that crystal ball?

If Veleno bumps Suter down the lineup then I think this board will be close to unanimously thrilled.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

mod

I'm still unsure what my preferred outcome of Vrana/Bertuzzi/Leddy would be - other than trading one of them for more 1st Rd draft capital should probably be the choice outcome here so we have more shots at acquiring a pivot. I'm just not sure which one I'd prefer to see go and why. If we can land a C in this upcoming draft in the Top 10; I'd be willing to say this point right now is the bottom. I think once the seasons starts and we have a healthy team - that the team that takes the ice this season will be noticeably better than the team that left the ice at the end of last year - right now, we're kind of in limbo till we see that.

 

[Bench]

I think the best episode they made was when Lazlo became Jackie Daytona.

+50 Bench Bucks for the new avatar.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

Yeah, I tried to take all of this pretty seriously and made an attempt to have an actual debate but I feel like looking over the history of posts here: these are not posts made in good faith and I'm frustrated I wasted time trying to discuss the state of Red Wings with someone who appears to have no real agenda other than to incite negativity and frustration. They've existed for about a week, and made about 100 posts that are as contrarian, snark-filled, and unproductive as I've seen. I'm sadly in agreement.

Back on topic:

I'm still unsure what my preferred outcome of Vrana/Bertuzzi/Leddy would be - other than trading one of them for more 1st Rd draft capital should probably be the choice outcome here so we have more shots at acquiring a pivot. I'm just not sure which one I'd prefer to see go and why. If we can land a C in this upcoming draft in the Top 10; I'd be willing to say this point right now is the bottom. I think once the seasons starts and we have a healthy team - that the team that takes the ice this season will be noticeably better than the team that left the ice at the end of last year - right now, we're kind of in limbo till we see that.

I think the bottom is most definitely in. A team that was recently half full of bad-to-terrible contracts has seen all of those wiped off, except for Nielsen and Dekeyser. Next year will be the last for Panik's dead cap hit and so extending further, we're only worried about Abdelkader's buyout. That's not much of a concern as the highest years of his buyout are erased before our top prospects will be needing their 2nd contracts, should they progress as hoped. So barring any current or future contracts that become anchors, the slate is clean to build this team.

Now, this team is nowhere near being good yet because we don't actually have a single elite player. But it is certainly on the upward trajectory. I don't expect to see a parabolic rise for at least a couple of seasons, but it could happen quickly if the current prospect pool, plus an expected high pick this summer, start to pan out. If the prospect pool ends up being a dud, then we are delayed, but there should be no reason to be as bad as we've been the last couple seasons unless Yzerman makes some rash moves that have long-lasting negative affects.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Yeah, I tried to take all of this pretty seriously and made an attempt to have an actual debate but I feel like looking over the history of posts here: these are not posts made in good faith and I'm frustrated I wasted time trying to discuss the state of Red Wings with someone who appears to have no real agenda other than to incite negativity and frustration. They've existed for about a week, and made about 100 posts that are as contrarian, snark-filled, and unproductive as I've seen. I'm sadly in agreement.

Back on topic:

I'm still unsure what my preferred outcome of Vrana/Bertuzzi/Leddy would be - other than trading one of them for more 1st Rd draft capital should probably be the choice outcome here so we have more shots at acquiring a pivot. I'm just not sure which one I'd prefer to see go and why. If we can land a C in this upcoming draft in the Top 10; I'd be willing to say this point right now is the bottom. I think once the seasons starts and we have a healthy team - that the team that takes the ice this season will be noticeably better than the team that left the ice at the end of last year - right now, we're kind of in limbo till we see that.

More 1st round capital this year at the expense of one of our top 6 wingers or trading up should be a goal at this year's trade deadline.

If you look at the 2022 draft thread we've got going now I think you'll like this year's crop. There are very likely 5 centers in the top 12 picks and another 6 to 8 in the next 20 picks. It's a really, really strong year for centers. Even if we don't end up with Wright or Lambert (this year's McDavid and Eichel) we could very well end up with our Barzal. And that is A-OK by me.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

In your mind, does offense first mean that a player can't also bring defensive qualities to the table? Because if it's offense first, with defense also included, then why in the world is there any reason to knock the players defense?

On what authority do you know what he will be in the next two years? Do you mind sharing that crystal ball?

If Veleno bumps Suter down the lineup then I think this board will be close to unanimously thrilled.

I guess I'm supposed to agree.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I think the bottom is most definitely in. A team that was recently half full of bad-to-terrible contracts has seen all of those wiped off, except for Nielsen and Dekeyser. Next year will be the last for Panik's dead cap hit and so extending further, we're only worried about Abdelkader's buyout. That's not much of a concern as the highest years of his buyout are erased before our top prospects will be needing their 2nd contracts, should they progress as hoped. So barring any current or future contracts that become anchors, the slate is clean to build this team.

Now, this team is nowhere near being good yet because we don't actually have a single elite player. But it is certainly on the upward trajectory. I don't expect to see a parabolic rise for at least a couple of seasons, but it could happen quickly if the current prospect pool, plus an expected high pick this summer, start to pan out. If the prospect pool ends up being a dud, then we are delayed, but there should be no reason to be as bad as we've been the last couple seasons unless Yzerman makes some rash moves that have long-lasting negative affects.

Yeah. Contracts gone. No great players. Rebuild complete.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm still unsure what my preferred outcome of Vrana/Bertuzzi/Leddy would be - other than trading one of them for more 1st Rd draft capital should probably be the choice outcome here so we have more shots at acquiring a pivot. I'm just not sure which one I'd prefer to see go and why. If we can land a C in this upcoming draft in the Top 10; I'd be willing to say this point right now is the bottom. I think once the seasons starts and we have a healthy team - that the team that takes the ice this season will be noticeably better than the team that left the ice at the end of last year - right now, we're kind of in limbo till we see that.

My preferred resolution is this.

Vrana either signs a LT contract before the hearing at something between 5.5 and 6.5 or he goes to the hearing, gets 4-5 and then we touch base on a contract in a year or two. I want him here and even if it gets contentious in arb, we've got at least a year or two with him and we can trade him for a solid return if he digs in and wants a ludicrous deal. Or if we really like him, we can ink him to that ludicrous deal.

Bertuzzi? Sign a LT deal or trade for some good assets. I like Bertuzzi, I hope they keep him... I also am kinda terrified of any player that gets a potentially degenerative back injury. Yzerman has shown that he will move a guy for a solid return commiserate with his actual value, so I don't necessarily need Tyler Bertuzzi on the roster if I can get a Tyler Bertuzzi like player that doesn't have a timebomb in his neck.

Leddy? Trade him for the same second at the TDL or extend him at a lower price than his current deal. Get a 2nd back for him and you rented Leddy for a year and get a pick in a better, more scouted draft. Or sign him and let a guy like Staal or DDK simply walk and keep the 31 year old guy at a more bargain rate (probably something in the 4s)

 

[Revenge of Gru]

My preferred resolution is this.

Vrana either signs a LT contract before the hearing at something between 5.5 and 6.5 or he goes to the hearing, gets 4-5 and then we touch base on a contract in a year or two. I want him here and even if it gets contentious in arb, we've got at least a year or two with him and we can trade him for a solid return if he digs in and wants a ludicrous deal. Or if we really like him, we can ink him to that ludicrous deal.

Bertuzzi? Sign a LT deal or trade for some good assets. I like Bertuzzi, I hope they keep him... I also am kinda terrified of any player that gets a potentially degenerative back injury. Yzerman has shown that he will move a guy for a solid return commiserate with his actual value, so I don't necessarily need Tyler Bertuzzi on the roster if I can get a Tyler Bertuzzi like player that doesn't have a timebomb in his neck.

Leddy? Trade him for the same second at the TDL or extend him at a lower price than his current deal. Get a 2nd back for him and you rented Leddy for a year and get a pick in a better, more scouted draft. Or sign him and let a guy like Staal or DDK simply walk and keep the 31 year old guy at a more bargain rate (probably something in the 4s)

You're absolutely correct. Racing around the corner! Leddy is probably sick of playing for contenders. He'll give us a bargain basement deal because Yzerman.

 

[Bench]

I was never big mad about not signing Coleman or Savard. I was only lil mad at the fact that this year was the good free agent crop and the next two seasons it's mostly replacement level players.

LOL.
Cry more.

I haven't seen you this upset since the volleyball team didn't have the money to go to the state playoffs.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

LOL.
Cry more.

I haven't seen you this upset since the volleyball team didn't have the money to go to the state playoffs.

It definitely made me want to drink some human alcohol beer.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

I guess I'm supposed to agree.

Agree on what?

 

[ShippinItDaily]

Yeah. Contracts gone. No great players. Rebuild complete.

Who is saying that the rebuild is complete?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Who is saying that the rebuild is complete?

Nobody, but if you don't have an argument, you make up something that the other guy didn't say.

Turned the corner means that they're just simply actually starting to improve as opposed to continuing to tear down. They still gotta add a lot, but they're actually able to potentially add. They weren't in a big way until right now. They didn't this offseason, but they had the wherewithal to do so.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

LOL.
Cry more.

I haven't seen you this upset since the volleyball team didn't have the money to go to the state playoffs.

Live look in on Ogee

 

[Bench]

Nobody, but if you don't have an argument, you make up something that the other guy didn't say.

Turned the corner means that they're just simply actually starting to improve as opposed to continuing to tear down. They still gotta add a lot, but they're actually able to potentially add. They weren't in a big way until right now. They didn't this offseason, but they had the wherewithal to do so.

Let's equate it to a house renovation.

I'd argue you've "turned the corner" when you finish planning, ripping out all the old material, and drive in your first new nail. That's where I feel the Red Wings are today. The best prospect in the world is about to join the roster and there's a handful of other NHLers and prospects that could become integral to the team success.

But it seems others feel the corner isn't turned until you've got all the electrical, plumbing, drywall, and most of the kitchen finished. They want to see the majority of the structure finally in place before they believe the project is going to work. They want to see Seider produce. Ned become a starting goalie. Raymond log top minutes.

All I know is the Wings long-term prospects used to be an empty wasteland with no elite talent and a bunch of bad contracts. Now the old rotted foundation had been removed, there's luxury fixtures waiting to be installed, and a contractor motivated to keep fixing things until it's up to code.

So yeah, corner turned for me.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

Nobody, but if you don't have an argument, you make up something that the other guy didn't say.

Turned the corner means that they're just simply actually starting to improve as opposed to continuing to tear down. They still gotta add a lot, but they're actually able to potentially add. They weren't in a big way until right now. They didn't this offseason, but they had the wherewithal to do so.

Agreed with the general sentiment. Although, I do I actually think Yzerman has been pretty aggressive so far this off-season and made significant adds. He certainly has in relation to his previous two off-seasons here. Nobody elite was acquired, like a Dougie Hamilton, but he pulled off a few big trades and acquired a FA with some actual future intrigue.

Year 1: Sign Filpulla and Nemeth. Trade for some depressed assets that could return to form in a different environment (Fabbri, Perlini)
Year 2: Sign more cheap, filler FA's and use cap space to acquire assets. Ryan, Greiss, Merrill, Staal etc. Then he got aggressive in-season with the Mantha trade.
Year 3: Trade for a calder-finalist goalie. Trade for a Dman to play a big role. Use draft capital to move up and try and fill a major organizational hole. Sign a UFA that could actually be a strong bet to produce better on-ice results than anything he has done historically (Suter).

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Live look in on Ogee

You know who the real losers are in this conversation are? The girl’s volleyball team.

 

[SirKillalot]

At least some more wins.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

At least some more wins.

I think people are missing this part of Holland's strategy. It is dangerous as hell, but he is going all in. I cannot believe he didn't improve his goalie, he must be planning on paying a premium asset and figuring that out somehow. Not sure, but I think he has to be worried McDavid goes like Eichel and wants out. I am not saying it is a great chance, but I think he is going to make moves to make them better even if it might hurt down the road, he is doing that for McDavid. As usual you can generally see what he is thinking, agree with it or don't and maybe it is all those years of watching him, but Holland is a pretty easy guy to read in my opinion.

 

[WF19]

I think people are missing this part of Holland's strategy. It is dangerous as hell, but he is going all in. I cannot believe he didn't improve his goalie, he must be planning on paying a premium asset and figuring that out somehow. Not sure, but I think he has to be worried McDavid goes like Eichel and wants out. I am not saying it is a great chance, but I think he is going to make moves to make them better even if it might hurt down the road, he is doing that for McDavid. As usual you can generally see what he is thinking, agree with it or don't and maybe it is all those years of watching him, but Holland is a pretty easy guy to read in my opinion.[/QUOTE

A good buddy mine is a huge Oilers fan. I gave it to him for years when the Wings were still winning. Tables turned when he could at least say he had Mcdavid and Drai much like we had Dats and Z for our team. Then we get Yzerman and Oilers get Holland and i'm all over him again lol.

Long story short, after talking with him today he isn't loving Holland after this offseason of blunders. However i'm loving it

 

[Syckle78]

Let's equate it to a house renovation.

I'd argue you've "turned the corner" when you finish planning, ripping out all the old material, and drive in your first new nail. That's where I feel the Red Wings are today. The best prospect in the world is about to join the roster and there's a handful of other NHLers and prospects that could become integral to the team success.

But it seems others feel the corner isn't turned until you've got all the electrical, plumbing, drywall, and most of the kitchen finished. They want to see the majority of the structure finally in place before they believe the project is going to work. They want to see Seider produce. Ned become a starting goalie. Raymond log top minutes.

All I know is the Wings long-term prospects used to be an empty wasteland with no elite talent and a bunch of bad contracts. Now the old rotted foundation had been removed, there's luxury fixtures waiting to be installed, and a contractor motivated to keep fixing things until it's up to code.

So yeah, corner turned for me.

I agree with you on what turn the corner means. To me it is when you have your foundation set. Having either a stud center or defenseman in place. But I completely understand where someone else would interpret it as meaniang having of your rough carpentry done and ready to start winning while adding the finishing touches. The term is just way too open to interpretation.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I agree with you on what turn the corner means. To me it is when you have your foundation set. Having either a stud center or defenseman in place. But I completely understand where someone else would interpret it as meaniang having of your rough carpentry done and ready to start winning while adding the finishing touches. The term is just way too open to interpretation.

We haven't bought the land and determined what the house is gonna look like yet. We hired an architect, hired a couple carpenters, began to clean out the tool shed and acquired a few rough sawn logs. We're still not sure if we're gonna use that kind of wood though. Might have to plant a few trees.