I think the Wings have turned the corner

[Snuggs]

Trouba, sure we had a shot. We were one of a couple locations he wanted. But NY had a 1st they could give and we didn't. PLD? No, man, we didn't have any kind of remote chance at PLD. Do we have a Laine in our system? Hell, did we have a Jack Roslovic to add as a second piece? I can say with confidence that we did not have anywhere near the pieces (without trading futures we absolutely could not trade like an unprotected first or Seider or Larkin) to match Laine + Roslovic.

I can understand that you might feel disappointed. I don't agree with it, but I can see the reasoning by which you might be disappointed. I'm just not at all. I can see your point of view and disagree with it. That being said, I don't think there were any core pieces available this year. You'll say this about Danault because we didn't sign him. If we had and did at a 6y,5.5M deal, we'd be hearing about how he's so bust and we should bury him in Ken Holland's backyard in a couple years. The guys available in FA this year are not and never have been core pieces. Trade market in this offseason in terms of big time moves has been a bit muted with the exception of Jones to Chicago and that was a massive package that I think people would hate here.

But to end, that's my kind of point. If you think he did an alright job and the future is pointed in the right way... why are you upset that we didn't add middle-rung guys? The guys that were available that everyone is kvetching about are essentially Frans Nielsen by another name. Be disappointed by not adding a player, but be realistic and understand the type of player that you're actually upset about missing.

Phillip Danault Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Frans Nielsen Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Yeah I'll piggy back your sentiment really and say Danault isn't a core piece but he's a nice addition, upgrading both PK/PP. I'm just not afraid to sign players cause Ken Holland brought in some bad players to try and help sustain a playoff/cup runs.

Stats are similar but situations are different imo, not really apples to apples. Phillip Danault was a good shut down center on a Stanley cup appearing team while Frans Nielsen was the 2nd best center from a really bad non-playoff roster and was 31 or 32 years old.

Phillip Danault would of nestled in on the 2nd line with either Fabbri/Zadina and upgraded the face-off win percentage big time for the Red Wings. Made them a tougher team to play against in both zones and helped Zadina(IMO) develop and score more goals than Suter will. Also would of helped Larkin, imo, loosen up and be more offensively productive. A signing like Danault doesn't/wouldn't handicap the Red Wings from going after anyone else they particularly want in the future either. They have that much cap space clearing up in just 1 season. If anything they played tough and won the lottery they'd look more attractive to play with. Red Wings aren't using all there remaining cap space to sign someone like him(Danault) where they did do that when they signed Nielsen.

Just a chance to supplement some talent into the rebuild, and maybe they did with Suter/Neds but they didn't use the money available when they had a chance. Maybe next year.

And as far as PLD, we had Anthony Mantha at the time. Mantha, Tyler Bertuzzi, 2 of the 3 2nd round picks might of gotten some attention. Idk I'm just talking. I'm not so confident as you are Wings had no shot. At least you gave me Trouba.

I'm not up in arms though, I mean, at any moment a move can be made to add serious talent here still. I've maybe made this out to be a bigger deal than I ever intended. Like if we're on the street it's... "Yeah this off-season sucked but next years gonna be pretty wild!"

 

[Syckle78]

We haven't bought the land and determined what the house is gonna look like yet. We hired an architect, hired a couple carpenters, began to clean out the tool shed and acquired a few rough sawn logs. We're still not sure if we're gonna use that kind of wood though. Might have to plant a few trees.

If Seider is who we hope he is then no, you're wrong. If he isn't then we are closer to what you think. We'll know soon enough.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

If Seider is who we hope he is then no, you're wrong. If he isn't then we are closer to what you think. We'll know soon enough.

I suspect Seider is fantastic though the offense may not be #1 level.. However you need more than a good defenseman and a couple wingers.

 

[Syckle78]

I suspect Seider is fantastic though the offense may not be #1 level.. However you need more than a good defenseman and a couple wingers.

Again I said if you have an elite defenseman then you have a foundation. Nobody suggested anything about a good defenseman and a couple wingers being enough. Remember that whole arguing in good faith that was mentioned up thread?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Again I said if you have an elite defenseman then you have a foundation. Nobody suggested anything about a good defenseman and a couple wingers being enough. Remember that whole arguing in good faith that was mentioned up thread?

Oh please...

 

[SirKillalot]

I think people are missing this part of Holland's strategy. It is dangerous as hell, but he is going all in. I cannot believe he didn't improve his goalie, he must be planning on paying a premium asset and figuring that out somehow. Not sure, but I think he has to be worried McDavid goes like Eichel and wants out. I am not saying it is a great chance, but I think he is going to make moves to make them better even if it might hurt down the road, he is doing that for McDavid. As usual you can generally see what he is thinking, agree with it or don't and maybe it is all those years of watching him, but Holland is a pretty easy guy to read in my opinion.

Problem with Holland is that he is to prone to try for those on decline, hoping he can get that last effort out of them. That there will be a fit that gives them a boost.

Which since the cap roof started, haven't been close to successful.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Problem with Holland is that he is to prone to try for those on decline, hoping he can get that last effort out of them. That there will be a fit that gives them a boost.

Which since the cap roof started, haven't been close to successful.

That's not true. Corey Perry worked out in Montreal. Pavelski worked out in Dallas. Veteran players often are successful. Since the cap people seem to think players are elite way before they are and worthless way before they are.

 

[Syckle78]

Oh please...

Good job proving them right.

 

[Snuggs]

*Edit*


Meh, tired of arguing a point that's not important.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Good job proving them right.

Yeah? Your argument is "If Seider is what WE HOPE he is then the foundation is set".
There's literally no basis for the argument other than hope. "If Seider is the Hockey Messiah then we're right because we HOPE he's so good he doesn't need the pieces around him that normally would constitute the foundation of a hockey team".
Yeah I am the one arguing in bad faith because I think there's more to a rebuild than getting rid of a few contracts and adding a few prospects which by the way are called prospects because they're not yet proven NHL players. But yeah...racing around the corner and I'm making a bad faith argument.

 

[SirKillalot]

That's not true. Corey Perry worked out in Montreal. Pavelski worked out in Dallas. Veteran players often are successful. Since the cap people seem to think players are elite way before they are and worthless way before they are.

Did Holland sign them?
No.
So they are not relevant.
Veterans is not often successful. They are way more often not.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Did Holland sign them?
No.
So they are not relevant.
Veterans is not often successful. They are way more often not.

Did Holland sign them?
No.
So they are not relevant.
Veterans is not often successful. They are way more often not.

Facts are hard eh?

 

[SirKillalot]

Facts are hard eh?

You gonna list all players not worked out as well?
Or for the purposes of the point speak about Holland?
As the point was about his veteran signings firstly.
Secondly all other players.

You are listing two incidents...of many...of which both was part of losing the actual cup final...talk about cherry picking a select few guys.

Mike Modano, Stephen Weiss, Frans Nielsen, Erik Cole, Brad Richards, David Legwand.
Holland costly blunders.

And I like Holland.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

You gonna list all players not worked out as well?
Or for the purposes of the point speak about Holland?
As the point was about his veteran signings firstly.
Secondly all other players.

You are listing two incidents...of many...of which both was part of losing the actual cup final...talk about cherry picking a select few guys.

Mike Modano, Stephen Weiss, Frans Nielsen, Erik Cole, Brad Richards, David Legwand.
Holland costly blunders.

And I like Holland.

Yeah I just listed guys who were key components in the last 2 cup finals. There are countless vets that play huge roles on successful teams. Too many to list. I get the incessant need to bash Holland. The comment just has no basis in fact. It's not even a uniquely Holland thing. Tampa just signed Perry.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Did Holland sign them?
No.
So they are not relevant.
Veterans is not often successful. They are way more often not.

Sorry. This is simply wrong. Does it work out 100% of the time? Nothing does. However almost every contender adds/keeps some older guys and many times they contribute greatly. It's been that way forever.

 

[SirKillalot]

Yeah I just listed guys who were key components in the last 2 cup finals. There are countless vets that play huge roles on successful teams. Too many to list. I get the incessant need to bash Holland. The comment just has no basis in fact. It's not even a uniquely Holland thing. Tampa just signed Perry.

Your point is redundant as I don't care what a few guys succeed with.
I would defend Holland more than most.
But he did some errors in sacrificing future for players over the hill. It's as simple as that.
What other GM's do as no say for an opinion on Holland's mindset.

I can add another as well. He chose wrong between Hossa and Franzen.
Detroit would have been better of giving Hossa "the deal", even though one has more emotional investment in Franzen.

I'm looking forward to Yzerman when he gets that far with the build as he will go with a different mindset.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Your point is redundant as I don't care what a few guys succeed with.
I would defend Holland more than most.
But he did some errors in sacrificing future for players over the hill. It's as simple as that.
What other GM's though as no say for an opinion on Holland's mindset.

I can add another as well. He chose wrong between Hossa and Franzen.
Detroit would have been better of given Hossa "the deal", even though one has more emotional investment in Franzen.

I'm looking forward to Yzerman when he gets that far with the build as he will go with a different mindset.

Talk about redundant. Rehashing grievances from 2008. Rehashing grievances with Holland at all. Completely uninteresting. The guy is a hall of fame GM based on his tenure here. It seems petulant and petty to be pissing on his leg years after his perceived mistakes. That's not something I would be into.

 

[SirKillalot]

That's not something I would be into.

No you are more into defending him based on other GM's decisions, than actually his decisions...

Holland did great things in Detroit. Took over a solid built team which he continued to build on and won 3 cups, then he built a 2nd contender, won one cup, should have won another.

But he also has major flaws after that which cost more than it gained. That's a fact.
I hope he succeed in Edmonton. Not sold yet on that. Looking more prone to fall into the same mistakes for now.

 

[Henkka]

No you are more into defending him based on other GM's decisions, than actually his decisions...

Holland did great things in Detroit. Took over a solid built team which he continued to build on and won 3 cups, then he built a 2nd contender, won one cup, should have won another.

Dallas, New Jersey x2, Colorado, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Anaheim, Pittsburgh x3, Chicago x3, Boston, Los Angeles x2 have won Cups.

10 Teams have won when Holland has been GM (23 years), Detroit 3 times, 20 Haven't won

Holland x3
Tampa x3
Pittsburgh x3
Chicago x3
Los Angeles x2
New Jersey x2
Colorado
Carolina
Anaheim
Boston
St. Louis
Washington

 

[Revenge of Gru]

No you are more into defending him based on other GM's decisions, than actually his decisions...

Holland did great things in Detroit. Took over a solid built team which he continued to build on and won 3 cups, then he built a 2nd contender, won one cup, should have won another.

But he also has major flaws after that which cost more than it gained. That's a fact.
I hope he succeed in Edmonton. Not sold yet on that. Looking more prone to fall into the same mistakes for now.

My money is on Holland to win another cup before Yzerman does.

 

[SirKillalot]

My money is on Holland to win another cup before Yzerman does.

Betting on the two biggest stars in the game right now in their prime vs. a rebuild team.
Quite the oracle bet.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Betting on the two biggest stars in the game right now in their prime vs. a rebuild team.
Quite the oracle bet.

They haven't reached their prime yet. So yeah. It's a good bet but not yet. Still some depth to be acquired. 2-3 years. 7-10 for us.

 

[PelagicJoe]

My money is on Holland to win another cup before Yzerman does.

Edmonton won't win anything any time soon. Their team really isn't good after the top 4 players.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Edmonton won't win anything any time soon. Their team really isn't good after the top 4 players.

We'll see. They're likely better this year than last year. They have some promising kids in the pipeline. McDavid is a monster. Holland has proven over and over that he knows what a cup team looks like. In a couple years they'll contend.

 

[SirKillalot]

Dallas, New Jersey x2, Colorado, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Anaheim, Pittsburgh x3, Chicago x3, Boston, Los Angeles x2 have won Cups.

10 Teams have won when Holland has been GM (23 years), Detroit 3 times, 20 Haven't won

Holland x3
Tampa x3
Pittsburgh x3
Chicago x3
Los Angeles x2
New Jersey x2
Colorado
Carolina
Anaheim
Boston
St. Louis
Washington

Things that have nothing with Hollands misses on acquiring veterans on decline.
Holland got more and more sentimental. With big contracts and terrible signings.

Still a HOF GM.
I think he showed signs of finally turning things around before he left when it comes to operating under the cap, but then it was "already too late" as Yzerman was free and people higher up already wanted to get him into the franchise again.
So far in Edmonton it's been a bit mixed in regards to that.

I like where Detroit are going. Which this thread is about.