How long do you want Gardiner signed?

[diceman934]

I am speaking from an Arbitrator's viewpoint, if Gardiner decides to go that route. Franson is the Leafs highest scoring D man the past 2 seasons. There is no way Gardiner makes more than him if it goes to arbitration.

I never claimed to be an arbitrator nor spoke as if I was, you did that.

All that I know about the arbitration process is what is posted about what is allow as evidence and what is not. Here are some of the items that are allowed:

The number of games played and a player's injury history
"Overall performance" (including NHL "official statistics")
Length of service of the player to the club or in the NHL
"The overall contribution of the Player to the competitive success or failure of his club in the preceding season"
"Any special qualities of leadership or public appeal"
The overall performance of alleged comparable players
The compensation of any comparable players that have been formally introduced as a comparable.

So included is plus/minus, ice time, goals assists, etc

What is not included is advance stats!

I claimed I was an arbitrator? Who knew?

Not sure where you got this?

Regardless, you never answered my point, do points matter in arbitration talks? Some would say this is the first thing Arbitrators look at amongst other factors. Points are a determining factor, not even debatable. But to you they are. LOL

Again you are not an Arbitrator, so you would not know what they use as criteria.

Franson has led the Leafs D in scoring the past 2 years. He has 62 points to Gardiner's 35 points. These are things they look at, plus the fact Franson has at least played more games at the NHL, and at a higher QOC.

To ignore these factors is really silly.

You clearly spoke as an arbitrator.....I never have.

You posted above Again you are not an Arbitrator, so you would not know what they use as criteria But you are telling me that you know what they view as important.


I answered you question and posted a list of what evidence that can be produced at a hearing. Points are included as part of the evidence that can be used.....all NHL stats are.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You clearly spoke as an arbitrator.....I never have.

You posted above Again you are not an Arbitrator, so you would not know what they use as criteria But you are telling me that you know what they view as important.


I answered you question and posted a list of what evidence that can be produced at a hearing. Points are included as part of the evidence that can be used.....all NHL stats are.

Again, where did I say I was an Arbitrator, you are really having a hard time reading of late. I said from an Arbitrator's view point that points play a big factor in arbitration decisions.

Are you saying they do not? Can you answer this question without the usual changing to goal posts arguments you are accustomed to of late.

 

[Schenn]

8 years, 1million per would be ideal.

 

[diceman934]

Again, where did I say I was an Arbitrator, you are really having a hard time reading of late. I said from an Arbitrator's view point that points play a big factor in arbitration decisions.

Are you saying they do not? Can you answer this question without the usual changing to goal posts arguments you are accustomed to of late.

So unless you are an arbitrator.....you have no idea what their view point is ....and you spoke for them. Which is what I said.....and you just continued above.

Some people when the find themselves in a hole keep digging....you are in a hole and that is what you are doing.....digging.

I clearly answer your question....twice now.....points are included in what can be presented as evidence. I nor you have any idea of what they weight as more important, I would say that they likely view all the presented evidence and make a decision.

 

[diceman934]

8 years, 1million per would be ideal.

Yes, hell I would give him 2 million a year.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So unless you are an arbitrator.....you have no idea what their view point is ....and you spoke for them. Which is what I said.....and you just continued above.

Some people when the find themselves in a hole keep digging....you are in a hole and that is what you are doing.....digging.

I clearly answer your question....twice now.....points are included in what can be presented as evidence. I nor you have any idea of what they weight as more important, I would say that they likely view all the presented evidence and make a decision.

Stop trying to change the goalposts and just answer the question without making this personal about me and you. I am asking you to clarify why you are challenging my claim from an arbitrator's view, points are one of the biggest factors in arbitration cases when comparing 2 players? I am giving you a chance to address this, because judging from the response you made, you disagree.

 

[WildcatMapleLeafs28]

5 year at those terms work for me . It's a cap friendly number for a young , improving dman. It's also not too long.

 

[dimi78]

Gardiner is very talented, no one can claim I have never said this. The question is can he process the game to max out his talent? Can he become a D man that produces enough to overlook his deficiencies?

Maybe he hits a career high of 40-45 points this year, but I see him being closer to a 30-35 point man. Nothing wrong with this for most D men, but for Gardiner you would expect more given he is pretty flashy with obvious offensive skills.

So yes, I can see why people are reluctant to give up on him, he's 24, so Leafs probably expect him to be that player. I see bridge contact for Jake that will take him to 26, and then he may be in Franson's position this year, or locked up. Depends which Jake he becomes. If he still comes with the tag Untapped potential at 26 will likely mean he will make it to UFA status.

It's so obvious that Carlyle has shackles on him and misused him as the cause an effect to his production. In case you've haven't noticed this offseason has been all about changing Carlyle.... What happens when those stupid shackles are off? How does leading the Leafs in scoring sound like Gardiner did down the stretch... Just maybe your assessment of Gardiner is slightly off could that be a possibility?

You have your opinion and that's fine but please stop with this assertion that we've seen the best from Gardiner when he hasn't scratched the surface to what he can do when used correctly. Kind of want to see what he will do then before he's claimed a 30 point D men when it's obvious he's better than that.

#FreeJakeGardiner & #FreeMorganRielly

Freeing these 2 to be the true PMD they are is a big focal point of what needs to Change from Carlyle hockey. It's no coincidence that Carlyle is changing his tune into using them more this coming season. That's orders from above him and if management were smart they'd lock up Gardiner now it will be a bargain in the long run.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

It's so obvious that Carlyle has shackles on him and misused him as the cause an effect to his production. In case you've haven't noticed this offseason has been all about changing Carlyle.... What happens when those stupid shackles are off? How does leading the Leafs in scoring sound like Gardiner did down the stretch... Just maybe your assessment of Gardiner is slightly off could that be a possibility?

You have your opinion and that's fine but please stop with this assertion that we've seen the best from Gardiner when he hasn't scratched the surface to what he can do when used correctly. Kind of want to see what he will do then before he's claimed a 30 point D men when it's obvious he's better than that.

#FreeJakeGardiner & #FreeMorganRielly

Freeing these 2 to be the true PMD they are is a big focal point of what needs to Change from Carlyle hockey. It's no coincidence that Carlyle is changing his tune into using them more this coming season. That's orders from above him and if management were smart they'd lock up Gardiner now it will be a bargain in the long run.

He's 24 and I think we can both agree it's time for Gardiner to put up or shut up.

Cam Fowler and Morgan Rielly were not affected by the RC shackles at ages 18-19, so I would look at the player first and not go to the predictable Carlyle excuse.

RC has actually sheltered Gardiner by giving him easy mins, his ice time was fine 5 on 5, if anything RC doesn't trust him on the PK and against tougher competition.

 

[dimi78]

He's 24 and I think we can both agree it's time for Gardiner to put up or shut up.

Cam Fowler and Morgan Rielly were not affected by the RC shackles at ages 18-19, so I would look at the player first and not go to the predictable Carlyle excuse.

RC has actually sheltered Gardiner by giving him easy mins, his ice time was fine 5 on 5, if anything RC doesn't trust him on the PK and against tougher competition.

Morgan Rielly was effected don't know what your talking about. Your so overpraising Rielly when he wasn't as good as Gardiner was this past season or any of Gardiner's seasons in the NHL at both ends of the ice. The entire team was effected with shackles on PMD that played a huge role to this teams rope & dope hockey.

It's not an excuse. The changes in the offseason is to change the WAY THIS TEAM PLAYS for a reason don't act like you don't see it.

You want to know what Gardiner did as a rookie without Carlyle shackles? He was named to the all rookie team. Keep it up though you've become hilarious to read on these boards.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Morgan Rielly was effected don't know what your talking about. Your so overpraising Rielly when he wasn't as good as Gardiner was this past season or any of Gardiner's seasons in the NHL at both ends of the ice. The entire team was effected with shackles on PMD that played a huge role to this teams rope & dope hockey.

It's not an excuse. The changes in the offseason is to change the WAY THIS TEAM PLAYS for a reason don't act like you don't see it.

You want to know what Gardiner did as a rookie without Carlyle shackles? He was named to the all rookie team. Keep it up though you've become hilarious to read on these boards.

Rielly is 4 years younger than Gardiner, drafted 4 years after Gardiner was. I would hope Gardiner is farther along, regardless I don't know what was wrong with Rielly's progression last season to suggest he was affected? Looked to me RC handled him well, and he is well on his way to being a better player for it as was Fowler. 27 points is not far off from 31, and in 7 games less. Again what shackles are you referring to? Both Rielly and Fowler are well on their way to being better players than Gardiner under Carlyle's guidence. Don't forget Randy was a former Norris winner? He knows something about being a young defenceman in the NHL. These are all valid points you may have missed.

BTW let's discuss hockey, if you want to resort to insults, I won't reply to you, if you have no rebuttal best to just leave it, instead of taking the low road.

 

[diceman934]

Stop trying to change the goalposts and just answer the question without making this personal about me and you. I am asking you to clarify why you are challenging my claim from an arbitrator's view, points are one of the biggest factors in arbitration cases when comparing 2 players? I am giving you a chance to address this, because judging from the response you made, you disagree.

Are you an arbitrator..no! That is why I am challenging your claim that an arbitrator would see points as a key part of the process..I stated several times that I have no idea of what would carry more weight...but you would think that a difference of two points would be nothing as well as 5 goals over 10 goals would at a bare minimum make the two points mute. You trying to attack Gardiner with this silly argument is about as silly as it gets on here. Gardiner is vastly superior to Franson in my opinion and I would guess most others as well.

I never changed the goalposts at all....you seem to have that cover.
The personal comment is funny as you stated that I could not read ....

 

[TheLeafsBro]

3.5M x 5.

 

[34]

As far as the Gardiner vs Reilly debate going here... They are both young D that the Leafs 100% absolutely have to keep. No ifs, ands or buts about it! These 2 are the future of our D core.

That being said, IMO Gardiner is the better player and will prove that in years to come.

 

[Duke Silver]

3.5 x 5M.

5 million for 3.5 years?

 

[TheLeafsBro]

5 million for 3.5 years?

Lol sorry, I edited it. Obviously I meant 3.5M x 5 years.

 

[Duke Silver]

Lol sorry, I edited it. Obviously I meant 3.5M x 5 years.

Just playing anyways. I feel like that would be a good contract but for 5 years I cannot see the Gardiner camp settling for less than $4M.

Predators signed Josi for 7 years at $4M after putting up in 11G-24A-35P in 100GP.

Gardiner has 10G-25A-35P in his last 92GP.

Both are 24 years old. One month apart. Would love to have Gardiner on a Josi deal.

 

[TheLeafsBro]

Just playing anyways. I feel like that would be a good contract but for 5 years I cannot see the Gardiner camp settling for less than $4M.

Predators signed Josi for 7 years at $4M after putting up in 11G-24A-35P in 100GP.

Gardiner has 10G-25A-35P in his last 92GP.

Both are 24 years old. One month apart. Would love to have Gardiner on a Josi deal.

Yeah you know what. The one thing that worries me a lot about the Gardiner contract talks that I keep coming back to is that comment by Randy at the end of the year where he said it was 'shocking' in reference to the player (unnamed) that Jake compared himself to. Whoever that player was (God forbid it was Drew Doughty) it goes to show you that Jake thinks very very highly of his own ability and the type of player he will become which is normally good but for a contract situation like this it could get ugly.

 

[false bobo]

It's so obvious that Carlyle has shackles on him and misused him as the cause an effect to his production. In case you've haven't noticed this offseason has been all about changing Carlyle.... What happens when those stupid shackles are off? How does leading the Leafs in scoring sound like Gardiner did down the stretch... Just maybe your assessment of Gardiner is slightly off could that be a possibility?

You have your opinion and that's fine but please stop with this assertion that we've seen the best from Gardiner when he hasn't scratched the surface to what he can do when used correctly. Kind of want to see what he will do then before he's claimed a 30 point D men when it's obvious he's better than that.

#FreeJakeGardiner & #FreeMorganRielly

Freeing these 2 to be the true PMD they are is a big focal point of what needs to Change from Carlyle hockey. It's no coincidence that Carlyle is changing his tune into using them more this coming season. That's orders from above him and if management were smart they'd lock up Gardiner now it will be a bargain in the long run.

Gardiner was 2nd only to Phaneuf in TOI last year. 1st in ES TOI. How exactly does Carlyle have him under "shackles" ?

 

[Super Mega]

I would be happy with a 4-4.5M for 5-6 yrs. Something like Voynov or Carlson got

 

[Duke Silver]

Yeah you know what. The one thing that worries me a lot about the Gardiner contract talks that I keep coming back to is that comment by Randy at the end of the year where he said it was 'shocking' in reference to the player (unnamed) that Jake compared himself to. Whoever that player was (God forbid it was Drew Doughty) it goes to show you that Jake thinks very very highly of his own ability and the type of player he will become which is normally good but for a contract situation like this it could get ugly.

Some people believe he was talking about Franson.

Scott Gordon said in an interview that "I can’t tell you how many times that Randy has said that the thought of trading Jake [Gardiner] can’t even be discussed."

 

[UllmansTiger]

Some people believe he was talking about Franson.

Scott Gordon said in an interview that "I can’t tell you how many times that Randy has said that the thought of trading Jake [Gardiner] can’t even be discussed."

Whomever they were talking about, if it's Jake, I kinda doubt he was talking about Franson. I agree with Randy though, they likely aren't sure what they have with Jake yet.

 

[Primary Assist]

I say we use the most expensive attorneys in Toronto to argue that the Reserve clause from Pre-WWII baseball should apply to Gardiner, so we can lock him up for the rest of his career.

 

[PuckMagi]

the longer the better.

whatever we pay him, it's gonna be great value.

 

[diceman934]

Some people believe he was talking about Franson.

Scott Gordon said in an interview that "I can’t tell you how many times that Randy has said that the thought of trading Jake [Gardiner] can’t even be discussed."

If you read what Randy said, I think it is very clear that he was talking about Franson....when I first heard it, I thought that it was Gardiner but when I listened to it a second time, I then knew it was Franson....when he talked about who had a short leash at the end of the season....Gardiner's leash was as long as you can get at the end of the season....where Franson's was not, he was removed from the Top PP unit and was playing less then his normal minutes.