How long do you want Gardiner signed?

[pucci2001]

5 years, anything longer they need to be an all star/olympian or else I don't risk the term. Anything shorter and we might regret it having to pay out big after another season or two.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

So are those the only 3 options Nonis has too?

 

[share]

Seems that Nonis is treating Gardiner the same as he did Franson last year and will force him into bridge contract for 2 years at about 2 million a year.Either that or they are trying to trade Franson and when that is done they will give him a longer term at 3.5 - 4 million cap hit.Anybody else have that feeling ?

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Seems that Nonis is treating Gardiner the same as he did Franson last year and will force him into bridge contrast for 2 years at about 2 million a year.Either that or they are trying to trade Franson and when that is done they will give him a longer term at 3.5 - 4 million cap hit.Anybody else have that feeling ?

Based off of Henny's tweets and the very high chance that Franson is gone either way, yes, I believe the Leafs want to give a long-term contract to Jake. I would like 4.5m @ 6 years but idk what the agent believes. I also believe that Morgan is better than Jake which would lead me to believe a more expensive contract to him as well. By that time, Robidas and Polak's contract will have expired (or close to) and marlies D would have already burst onto the nhl scene on cheap contracts. I'm not sure if the leafs planned around this, but the only remaining loose end is Dion...

With Jake around $4.5~, Morgan >$4.5(possibly $6-7m), and Dion @ $7, it's not hard to see what's coming next when it's time for Morgan's extension. Also, I do not believe Morgan will be getting a bridge contract. Give him max term and sufficient pay.

 

[share]

Based off of Henny's tweets and the very high chance that Franson is gone either way, yes, I believe the Leafs want to give a long-term contract to Jake. I would like 4.5m @ 6 years but idk what the agent believes. I also believe that Morgan is better than Jake which would lead me to believe a more expensive contract to him as well. By that time, Robidas and Polak's contract will have expired (or close to) and marlies D would have already burst onto the nhl scene on cheap contracts. I'm not sure if the leafs planned around this, but the only remaining loose end is Dion...

With Jake around $4.5~, Morgan >$4.5(possibly $6-7m), and Dion @ $7, it's not hard to see what's coming next when it's time for Morgan's extension. Also, I do not believe Morgan will be getting a bridge contract. Give him max term and sufficient pay.

I doubt that Rielly will be getting that in his next contract. Remembering what the Leafs did to Franson and Kadri I expect much less in a shorter term for his next contract.

 

[UllmansTiger]

If the Leafs could lock him up for 8 years, I'd be pretty interested. I doubt that will happen, long term he could be looking at a lot more money down the road, but, signing a guaranteed contract now is also pretty enticing. Looking at the Leafs cap situation they could do something like that if they moved Franson ( which seems almost necessary at this point ). Most likely a bridge deal but something in the 5 year range wouldn't be that surprising either.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

No player takes 3.5 - 4 per for max 8 years. I had to chuckle when I read posts like these. If Gardiner's agent actually suggested this, Jake should fire him.

Gardiner is not going to be locked up because he is not a 5M - 6M per player. He is a bridge contract guy that will likely test out free agency when he reaches 27. He's got the talent as in skating and puck handling, but he has flaws that will always be part of his game that will prevent him from becoming an elite D man.

The sooner we realize this, the sooner we will realize what he is. A 30 point D man, that skates well, but is not particularly physical or great defensively.

 

[Purity*]

No player takes 3.5 - 4 per for max 8 years. I had to chuckle when I read posts like these. If Gardiner's agent actually suggested this, Jake should fire him.

Gardiner is not going to be locked up because he is not a 5M - 6M per player. He is a bridge contract guy that will likely test out free agency when he reaches 27. He's got the talent as in skating and puck handling, but he has flaws that will always be part of his game that will prevent him from becoming an elite D man.

The sooner we realize this, the sooner we will realize what he is. A 30 point D man, that skates well, but is not particularly physical or great defensively.

You know I actually have to agree with you on a few points.

The one thing I will disagree with is that I don't think he is a "30 point D man." I think he's got the potential for 40+ points who can quarterback the PP and even improve defensively.

I do however completely understand your view point on it however. I am also sure that you can see how some of us think he's got more untapped potential to him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You know I actually have to agree with you on a few points.

The one thing I will disagree with is that I don't think he is a "30 point D man." I think he's got the potential for 40+ points who can quarterback the PP and even improve defensively.

I do however completely understand your view point on it however. I am also sure that you can see how some of us think he's got more untapped potential to him.

Gardiner is very talented, no one can claim I have never said this. The question is can he process the game to max out his talent? Can he become a D man that produces enough to overlook his deficiencies?

Maybe he hits a career high of 40-45 points this year, but I see him being closer to a 30-35 point man. Nothing wrong with this for most D men, but for Gardiner you would expect more given he is pretty flashy with obvious offensive skills.

So yes, I can see why people are reluctant to give up on him, he's 24, so Leafs probably expect him to be that player. I see bridge contact for Jake that will take him to 26, and then he may be in Franson's position this year, or locked up. Depends which Jake he becomes. If he still comes with the tag Untapped potential at 26 will likely mean he will make it to UFA status.

 

[Legion34]

Gardiner is very talented, no one can claim I have never said this. The question is can he process the game to max out his talent? Can he become a D man that produces enough to overlook his deficiencies?

Maybe he hits a career high of 40-45 points this year, but I see him being closer to a 30-35 point man. Nothing wrong with this for most D men, but for Gardiner you would expect more given he is pretty flashy with obvious offensive skills.

So yes, I can see why people are reluctant to give up on him, he's 24, so Leafs probably expect him to be that player. I see bridge contact for Jake that will take him to 26, and then he may be in Franson's position this year, or locked up. Depends which Jake he becomes. If he still comes with the tag Untapped potential at 26 will likely mean he will make it to UFA status.

How many yrs to ufa
Either buy a bunch of ufa yrs or stop the contractnwith one yr left of rfa so if
4'yrs left sign him for 3 or 8

 

[The Winter Soldier]

How many yrs to ufa
Either buy a bunch of ufa yrs or stop the contractnwith one yr left of rfa so if
4'yrs left sign him for 3 or 8

Cap reduces how many long term contracts you can have on a team, usually only core players are locked up long term. I don't see Gardiner wanting to sign for 3.5 for 7 or 8 years, he worth no more than 3.3 this year if we use Franson who is a better producer as a comparable.

 

[mulefarm]

Cap reduces how many long term contracts you can have on a team, usually only core players are locked up long term. I don't see Gardiner wanting to sign for 3.5 for 7 or 8 years, he worth no more than 3.3 this year if we use Franson who is a better producer as a comparable.

Not sure why you continue to compare Franson and Gardiner? Too me they are total different players and I would think you would be able to see that. When you say a better producer I'm not sure if you are using goals, assists, total points or plus/minus? My guess he will sign for around 5 million for 5-6 yrs.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Not sure why you continue to compare Franson and Gardiner? Too me they are total different players and I would think you would be able to see that. When you say a better producer I'm not sure if you are using goals, assists, total points or plus/minus? My guess he will sign for around 5 million for 5-6 yrs.

I am speaking from an Arbitrator's viewpoint, if Gardiner decides to go that route. Franson is the Leafs highest scoring D man the past 2 seasons. There is no way Gardiner makes more than him if it goes to arbitration.

 

[mulefarm]

So the arbitrator only looks at points in determining salary? I would think both sides would have more data that that.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So the arbitrator only looks at points in determining salary? I would think both sides would have more data that that.

It's a big factor, most Arbitrator's don't even watch hockey.

 

[diceman934]

Cap reduces how many long term contracts you can have on a team, usually only core players are locked up long term. I don't see Gardiner wanting to sign for 3.5 for 7 or 8 years, he worth no more than 3.3 this year if we use Franson who is a better producer as a comparable.

What?

Locking up players long term at a good cap hit helps teams and you think that the cap reduces the number of long term contracts a team can have. It does if you wait until they prove that they are worth far more then you could have signed them for at below current value.

The Leafs long term contracts are all at the current market value of the player or even higher except JVR who we did not sign to that contract. This is an example of poor cap management.

If we can sign Gardiner to a long term deal at a good cap hit we should do so.

 

[Menzinger]

So the arbitrator only looks at points in determining salary? I would think both sides would have more data that that.

They look at points, and also comparable contracts around the league. There are a lot of flaws in the process, but generally its supposed to take emotion/internal team biases out of the picture.

 

[mulefarm]

It's a big factor, most Arbitrator's don't even watch hockey.

So if I'm an arbitrator, and I see Franson scored 5 goals and Gardiner scored 10 goals, I would assume Gardiner is worth twice as much as Franson?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What?

Locking up players long term at a good cap hit helps teams and you think that the cap reduces the number of long term contracts a team can have. It does if you wait until the prove that they are worth far more then you could have signed them for at below current value.

The Leafs long term contracts are all at the current market value of the player or even higher except JVR who we did not sign to that contract. This is an example of poor cap management.

If we can sign Gardiner to a long term deal at a good cap hit we should do so.

Gardiner is not worth more than Franson in the eyes of an arbitrator so I doubt the Leafs will offer a 5M per 8 year contract to Gardiner based on his play of last year. 5M per should mean you can at least handle Dion Phaneuf or Carl Gunnarson type of QOC. Gardiner had the softest mins for D men according to advanced stats to only Rielly last season.

Lots to prove for a 30 point D man.

Further, I keep reading we should not throw longterm money around, yet, we are willing to spend it on a talented but flawed player that may or may not get that out of his game, he is 24, if he can finally show the smarts to play this game, yes, I might be on board. But make no mistake Jake is not a physical or strong player on one on one battles, he has limitations. Nonis and Shanny will have to decide if they want a soft talented D man as a core player.

 

[diceman934]

Gardiner is not worth more than Franson in the eyes of an arbitrator so I doubt the Leafs will offer a 5M per 8 year contract to Gardiner based on his play of last year. 5M per should mean you can at least handle Dion Phaneuf or Carl Gunnarson type of QOC. Gardiner had the softest mins for D men according to advanced stats to only Rielly last season.

Lots to prove for a 30 point D man.

Further, I keep reading we should not throw longterm money around, yet, we are willing to spend it on a talented but flawed player that may or may not get that out of his game, he is 24, if he can finally show the smarts to play this game, yes, I might be on board. But make no mistake Jake is not a physical or strong player on one on one battles, he has limitations. Nonis and Shanny will have to decide if they want a soft talented D man as a core player.

By the way he had 31 points last year.....not 30!

Are you an arbitrator?

You have no idea of who would get more in that process, nor do I. I do know that on the trade market Gardiner is valued much higher and that is a reality.

You called him soft yet he has shown that he is not soft as seen by the willingness to take a check to make a play. He is not a physical player but has the ability to control the pace of the game, his superior skating and offensive ability will hold him in good stead in coming years.

I would love to see him locked up long term at a good cap hit....as I see him as a core piece of our D in the coming years.

 

[diceman934]

So if I'm an arbitrator, and I see Franson scored 5 goals and Gardiner scored 10 goals, I would assume Gardiner is worth twice as much as Franson?

I spit out my coffee all over my lap top!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

By the way he had 31 points last year.....not 30!

Are you an arbitrator?

You have no idea of who would get more in that process, nor do I. I do know that on the trade market Gardiner is valued much higher and that is a reality.

You called him soft yet he has shown that he is not soft as seen by the willingness to take a check to make a play. He is not a physical player but has the ability to control the pace of the game, his superior skating and offensive ability will hold him in good stead in coming years.

I would love to see him locked up long term at a good cap hit....as I see him as a core piece of our D in the coming years.

You are not an arbitrator? No. So you cannot claim otherwise also. But We know from past precedents Points play a large role in contract talks, and especially arbitration, do you disagree with this?

 

[KingBuzzo]

Forever and ever, 100 years of Jake Gardiner. Really though, this is going to be a big year for him. The Leafs are going to use him a lot, so maybe a bridge contract to see how he handles the new situation, then go from there after the two years to lock him up.

 

[diceman934]

You are not an arbitrator? No. So you cannot claim otherwise also. But We know from past precedents Points play a large role in contract talks, and especially arbitration, do you disagree with this?

I never claimed to be an arbitrator nor spoke as if I was, you did that.

All that I know about the arbitration process is what is posted about what is allow as evidence and what is not. Here are some of the items that are allowed:

The number of games played and a player's injury history
"Overall performance" (including NHL "official statistics")
Length of service of the player to the club or in the NHL
"The overall contribution of the Player to the competitive success or failure of his club in the preceding season"
"Any special qualities of leadership or public appeal"
The overall performance of alleged comparable players
The compensation of any comparable players that have been formally introduced as a comparable.

So included is plus/minus, ice time, goals assists, etc

What is not included is advance stats!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I never claimed to be an arbitrator nor spoke as if I was, you did that.

All that I know about the arbitration process is what is posted about what is allow as evidence and what is not. Here are some of the items that are allowed:

The number of games played and a player's injury history
"Overall performance" (including NHL "official statistics")
Length of service of the player to the club or in the NHL
"The overall contribution of the Player to the competitive success or failure of his club in the preceding season"
"Any special qualities of leadership or public appeal"
The overall performance of alleged comparable players
The compensation of any comparable players that have been formally introduced as a comparable.

So included is plus/minus, ice time, goals assists, etc

What is not included is advance stats!

I claimed I was an arbitrator? Who knew?

Not sure where you got this?

Regardless, you never answered my point, do points matter in arbitration talks? Some would say this is the first thing Arbitrators look at amongst other factors. Points are a determining factor, not even debatable. But to you they are. LOL

Again you are not an Arbitrator, so you would not know what they use as criteria.

Franson has led the Leafs D in scoring the past 2 years. He has 62 points to Gardiner's 35 points. These are things they look at, plus the fact Franson has at least played more games at the NHL, and at a higher QOC.

To ignore these factors is really silly.