How long do you want Gardiner signed?

[Faltorvo]

Yeah you know what. The one thing that worries me a lot about the Gardiner contract talks that I keep coming back to is that comment by Randy at the end of the year where he said it was 'shocking' in reference to the player (unnamed) that Jake compared himself to. Whoever that player was (God forbid it was Drew Doughty) it goes to show you that Jake thinks very very highly of his own ability and the type of player he will become which is normally good but for a contract situation like this it could get ugly.

Umm, something tells me that Gards compared himself to Randy Carlyle.

Look at RCs career numbers, he was a defensive nightmare but he did manage to rack up the points.

That would be one way to shock and shut up a coach that was preaching from a hypocritical position.

 

[Faltorvo]

I say we use the most expensive attorneys in Toronto to argue that the Reserve clause from Pre-WWII baseball should apply to Gardiner, so we can lock him up for the rest of his career.

shut up you 8 million dollar pudge and get into the gym.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Are you an arbitrator..no! That is why I am challenging your claim that an arbitrator would see points as a key part of the process..I stated several times that I have no idea of what would carry more weight...but you would think that a difference of two points would be nothing as well as 5 goals over 10 goals would at a bare minimum make the two points mute. You trying to attack Gardiner with this silly argument is about as silly as it gets on here. Gardiner is vastly superior to Franson in my opinion and I would guess most others as well.

I never changed the goalposts at all....you seem to have that cover.
The personal comment is funny as you stated that I could not read ....

Let's get one thing straight here, you said I am not an Arbitrator when I said Franson is our best producing Defenceman the past 2 years, and from an Arbitrator's viewpoint, if Gardiner is a comparison if he goes to arbitration, Leafs will cite Franson's 62 points to Gardiner's 35 the past 2 years.

It's not hard to figure out what you implied here, with that comment, you were downplaying the points angle. Obcourse when I challenge you on this, you have backpedal and now are spinning a different yarn.

 

[diceman934]

Let's get one thing straight here, you said I am not an Arbitrator when I said Franson is our best producing Defenceman the past 2 years, and from an Arbitrator's viewpoint, if Gardiner is a comparison if he goes to arbitration, Leafs will cite Franson's 62 points to Gardiner's 35 the past 2 years.

It's not hard to figure out what you implied here, with that comment, you were downplaying the points angle. Obcourse when I challenge you on this, you have backpedal and now are spinning a different yarn.

You win Franson is better then Gardiner....

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You win Franson is better then Gardiner....

It's not about winning, it's about perceived value between the 2 players. I am telling you, one does not have to be an arbitrator to know player and contract comparables will come up something like this.

Here's a quick example.

Possession

Franson:

12-13 #1D on team
13-14 #2D on team

Gardiner:

12-13 Not enough games
13-14 #1D

Points Production:

Aggregate last 2 seasons

Franson 62
Gardiner 35

HIT For:

Franson 282 1st Leafs
Gardiner 108 13th Leafs

QOC
Last season.

Franson 5th for D on Leafs
Gardiner 6th for D on Leafs

You may have your opinion Gardiner is better, but the stats to an Arbtirator will paint a different picture. Stats against Stats.

 

[Nithoniniel]

It's not about winning, it's about perceived value between the 2 players. I am telling you, one does not have to be an arbitrator to know player and contract comparables will come up something like this.

Here's a quick example.

Possession

Franson:

12-13 #1D on team
13-14 #2D on team

Gardiner:

12-13 Not enough games
13-14 #1D

Points Production:

Aggregate last 2 seasons

Franson 62
Gardiner 35

HIT For:

Franson 282 1st Leafs
Gardiner 108 13th Leafs

QOC
Last season.

Franson 5th for D on Leafs
Gardiner 6th for D on Leafs

You may have your opinion Gardiner is better, but the stats to an Arbtirator will paint a different picture. Stats against Stats.

Any such list would also include this:

GA/60
Last season.

Franson 6th for D on Leafs
Gardiner 1st for D on Leafs

I'm not sure what the argument is, whether Franson or Gardiner would get the most from an arbitrator, but I at least doubt that piece of information would get lost in a comparison.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Any such list would also include this:

GA/60
Last season.

Franson 6th for D on Leafs
Gardiner 1st for D on Leafs

I'm not sure what the argument is, whether Franson or Gardiner would get the most from an arbitrator, but I at least doubt that piece of information would get lost in a comparison.

Feel free to add to my quick snapshot of player stats comparison, this is a free discussion, I am only pointing out to the poster that his reply that Gardiner is far better only carries in opinion. When you stack up stats side by side, Franson is better on the whole than Gardiner is. Opinions only count on message boards, to Arbitrator's they look at the cases of the hockey team, and the player agent. What I presented is what most likely a hockey team would present say if Gardiner's demands are ridculous.

 

[JoeyBeans]

6 Months ago.... Gardiner wasn't so hot

 

[Hockey Talker29]

It's not about winning, it's about perceived value between the 2 players. I am telling you, one does not have to be an arbitrator to know player and contract comparables will come up something like this.

Here's a quick example.

Possession

Franson:

12-13 #1D on team
13-14 #2D on team

Gardiner:

12-13 Not enough games
13-14 #1D

Points Production:

Aggregate last 2 seasons

Franson 62
Gardiner 35

HIT For:

Franson 282 1st Leafs
Gardiner 108 13th Leafs

QOC
Last season.

Franson 5th for D on Leafs
Gardiner 6th for D on Leafs

You may have your opinion Gardiner is better, but the stats to an Arbtirator will paint a different picture. Stats against Stats.

[mod]

2 year aggregate points stats. Even a dimwitted arbitrator would know to compare a sample with a similar number of games played if aggregate stats are going to factor in. Gardiner barely played in 2013, primarily due to injury.

You conveniently left out +/-, and rate stats which heavily swing the argument in Gardiner's favour.

If you subjectively pick the stats, it's easy to bend any argument regarding two players. Fact is, if you look at all of the stats, Gardiner has a clear edge. Not that anyone needs the stats to figure that out.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

[mod]
2 year aggregate points stats. Even a dimwitted arbitrator would know to compare a sample with a similar number of games played if aggregate stats are going to factor in. Gardiner barely played in 2013, primarily due to injury.

You conveniently left out +/-, and rate stats which heavily swing the argument in Gardiner's favour.

If you subjectively pick the stats, it's easy to bend any argument regarding two players. Fact is, if you look at all of the stats, Gardiner has a clear edge. Not that anyone needs the stats to figure that out.

(mod)

We are talking about Arbitration cases when it pertains to Gardiner.

Franson is the Leafs highest scoring Defenceman the past 2 years, explain what is wrong presenting this to an arbitrator when he is paid 3.3. And if Gardiner wants the same, you cite he has been half as productive.

Again if you have stats to back up Gardiner's case, I already said you are welcomed to post them to mine.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

(mod)

Franson is the Leafs highest scoring Defenceman the past 2 years, explain what is wrong presenting this to an arbitrator?

Much the same, Kadri is our highest scoring center, each of the past two seasons individually, and combined.

I'm curious, do you think Kadri's stats paint him as the best center on the team?

Or do you agree that taking points in aggregate as your primary argument is a faulty measure, especially when games played differ considerably?

 

[SprDaVE]

I expect the Leafs to re-sign him pretty soon. I'm hoping a bit of a gamble and we can give him a 4+ year deal.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Much the same, Kadri is our highest scoring center, each of the past two seasons individually, and combined.

I'm curious, do you think Kadri's stats paint him as the best center on the team?

Or do you agree that taking points in aggregate as your primary argument is a faulty measure, especially when games played differ considerably?

We are discussing Gardiner and Franson, this is a Gardiner thread. It has nothing to do with the 2 players you have mentioned.

Can you add stats to your case? Don't forget I was disputing a post by a poster that said Gardiner is far superior to Franson. I have illustrated quite convincingly he is not if you use the stats to compare each player. This is what an Arbitrator will look at.

Teams and agents present cases to win Arbitration cases, stats are the most convincing method to do so.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

We are discussing Gardiner and Franson, this is a Gardiner thread. It has nothing to do with the 2 players you have mentioned.

Can you add stats to your case? Don't forget I was disputing a post by a poster that said Gardiner is far superior to Franson. I have illustrated quite convincingly he is not if you use the stats to compare each player. This is what an Arbitrator will look at.

Gardiner has double the goals, and only two points less, despite considerably less PP time.

He also has considerably better possession numbers, and a vastly superior +/- despite playing the same competition.

Given how much better Gardiner performed than Franson, when the two were apart (+/- difference of 17 illustrates this clearly), it's safe to say that Gards is the better of the two by a clear margin.

The only place Franson has a significant edge is in hits, although given his +/-, that may be a stronger indictment of how poor his positioning is.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Gardiner has double the goals, and only two points less, despite considerably less PP time.

He also has considerably better possession numbers, and a vastly superior +/- despite playing the same competition.

Given how much better Gardiner performed than Franson, when the two were apart (+/- difference of 17 illustrates this clearly), it's safe to say that Gards is the better of the two by a clear margin.

The only place Franson has a significant edge is in hits, although given his +/-, that may be a stronger indictment of how poor his positioning is.

Here is my case.

Franson has led the team in points for Defenceman the past 2 years. And he is paid at 3.3 as such

Possession Stats

Franson:

12-13 #1st on team for D
13-14 #2nd on team for D

Gardiner:

12-13 Not enough games for a sample
13-14 #1st on team for D

Very comparable, call it a draw.

Points Production:

Franson 62 Leafs all Leaf defenceman in this regard past 2 years *Franson
Gardiner 35 tied for 2nd

Franson wins this one.

HITS For:

Franson 282 1st Leafs * Franson
Gardiner 108 13th Leafs

Franson wins this one.

QOC
Last season.

Franson 5th for D on Leafs *
Gardiner 6th for D on Leafs

Close, comparable, slight edge Franson.

TOI All Situations

Franson 20.3
Gardiner 20.7 *

Close, comparable, edge Gardiner

Plus minus

Franson
2012-13 +4
2013-14 -20

Gardiner
2012-13 even
2013-14 -4

Edge to Gardiner for last season, Franson edge 12-13

GF per 60

Franson 2.39*
Gardiner 2.21

Edge Franson

GP

Franson has played more games past 2 seasons.

Edge Franson

Age Franson 26, Gardiner 24.

I don't see how anyone can claim if this went to an Arbitrator, Gardiner is far superior. Franson is as good or better statstistically in many of these catagories. The only one he loses is plus minus for a 2 year aggregate.

 

[diceman934]

We are discussing Gardiner and Franson, this is a Gardiner thread. It has nothing to do with the 2 players you have mentioned.

Can you add stats to your case? Don't forget I was disputing a post by a poster that said Gardiner is far superior to Franson. I have illustrated quite convincingly he is not if you use the stats to compare each player. This is what an Arbitrator will look at.

Teams and agents present cases to win Arbitration cases, stats are the most convincing method to do so.

An argument is being presented using two other leafs that using only your premise would make Kadri much more valuable in the eyes of an arbitrator's eyes. It is very valid as it shows the flaws in your opinion. You seem to believe it is OK to introduce player's from any team in your rebuttal but only when it suits your arguments. Kadri stats are vastly superior in every area to Bozak.

In the case of Gardiner and Franson it is not as cut and dry. More goals vs more points. What weight would be given to each. More ice time vs less ice time. Plus minus , give away etc. There are many NHL stats that can be used to determine value. Remember advance stats are not allowed.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Here is my case.

Franson has led the team in points for Defenceman the past 2 years. And he is paid at 3.3 as such

Possession Stats

Franson:

12-13 #1st on team for D
13-14 #2nd on team for D

Gardiner:

12-13 Not enough games for a sample
13-14 #1st on team for D

Very comparable, call it a draw.

Points Production:

Franson 62 Leafs all Leaf defenceman in this regard past 2 years *Franson
Gardiner 35 tied for 2nd

Franson wins this one.

HITS For:

Franson 282 1st Leafs * Franson
Gardiner 108 13th Leafs

Franson wins this one.

QOC
Last season.

Franson 5th for D on Leafs *
Gardiner 6th for D on Leafs

Close, comparable, slight edge Franson.

TOI All Situations

Franson 20.3
Gardiner 20.7 *

Close, comparable, edge Gardiner

Plus minus

Franson
2012-13 +4
2013-14 -20

Gardiner
2012-13 even
2013-14 -4

Edge to Gardiner for last season, Franson edge 12-13

GF per 60

Franson 2.39*
Gardiner 2.21

Edge Franson

GP

Franson has played more games past 2 seasons.

Edge Franson

Age Franson 26, Gardiner 24.

I don't see how anyone can claim if this went to an Arbitrator, Gardiner is far superior. Franson is as good or better statstistically in many of these catagories. The only one he loses is plus minus for a 2 year aggregate.

It's amazing that you continue to use 2013 stats, a season in which Gardiner barely played. The 2011-12 season goes completely ignored, for some reason. Probably because Gardiner played more games and minutes, and had more points, etc.

Some other highlights:

1) Franson is better because he physically played more games.
2) Franson is better because he is older.
3) Franson has the edge in GF/60. I wonder who would have the edge in GA/60, and the relative differential between the two.

Impressive. You should stop embarrassing yourself.

As I noted before, the only area where Franson holds a significant edge is in hits. Every other stat is in Gardiner's favour, or about even.

Thanks for coming out.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

An argument is being presented using two other leafs that using only your premise would make Kadri much more valuable in the eyes of an arbitrator's eyes. It is very valid as it shows the flaws in your opinion. You seem to believe it is OK to introduce player's from any team in your rebuttal but only when it suits your arguments. Kadri stats are vastly superior in every area to Bozak.

In the case of Gardiner and Franson it is not as cut and dry. More goals vs more points. What weight would be given to each. More ice time vs less ice time. Plus minus , give away etc. There are many NHL stats that can be used to determine value. Remember advance stats are not allowed.

I never expected an answer to that post. Any response other than "Kadri is better" is a contradiction to the Gardiner/Franson debate.

Better to just ignore it than admit defeat.

 

[seanlinden]

Why has this gotten into such a heated debate?

There's absolutely no doubt, that if both were in an arbitration setting, Franson would get more. Points tie heavier to contracts than any other metric; likely followed by the real-time stats (hits being the obvious win for Franson).

Yes, Gardiner may be the favoured one amongst coaches, and have the higher upside, but that's not how arbitration works. The process of arbitration is simple, look at other RFAs, what they sign for, and establish the player in question as a comparable.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

An argument is being presented using two other leafs that using only your premise would make Kadri much more valuable in the eyes of an arbitrator's eyes. It is very valid as it shows the flaws in your opinion. You seem to believe it is OK to introduce player's from any team in your rebuttal but only when it suits your arguments. Kadri stats are vastly superior in every area to Bozak.

In the case of Gardiner and Franson it is not as cut and dry. More goals vs more points. What weight would be given to each. More ice time vs less ice time. Plus minus , give away etc. There are many NHL stats that can be used to determine value. Remember advance stats are not allowed.

You posted this quote in post #112 here right? Your words no one else's. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1714315&page=5

Gardiner is vastly superior to Franson in my opinion and I would guess most others as well.

I challenged this assertion by posting a very detailed stats comparison. It is incumbent on you to prove your statement, and to defute the factual stats I presented.

No one was talking Kadri and Bozak in this thread until you tried to post off topic again.

It's simple, back up your opiniom, and try if you can to defute the stats I posted.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

It's amazing that you continue to use 2013 stats, a season in which Gardiner barely played. The 2011-12 season goes completely ignored, for some reason. Probably because Gardiner played more games and minutes, and had more points, etc.

Some other highlights:

1) Franson is better because he physically played more games.
2) Franson is better because he is older.
3) Franson has the edge in GF/60. I wonder who would have the edge in GA/60, and the relative differential between the two.

Impressive. You should stop embarrassing yourself.

As I noted before, the only area where Franson holds a significant edge is in hits. Every other stat is in Gardiner's favour, or about even.

Thanks for coming out.

You should be embaressed because that post avoided the facts I posted, you didn't address a single point in my post. Still waiting for you to prove to me how Gardiner is vastly superior to Franson.

Just for the record, I never made claims Franson was better, let's be clear there. I am taking issue of the statement, Gardiner is vastly superior. So I await for someone to prove to me he is.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I don't really think Interactif is wrong that an arbitration case might favor Franson over Gardiner. Franson has all the statistics to make a good case for himself, except for +/- and GA/60. In the latter one, the difference is really big but not really bigger than point production, and I think that weighs more heavily.

Of all our players, Franson might have been the main cause of the biggest share of goals let in when on the ice. That's why so many dislike him, that's his weakness as a hockey player and that's something that doesn't show up in stats.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't really think Interactif is wrong that an arbitration case might favor Franson over Gardiner. Franson has all the statistics to make a good case for himself, except for +/- and GA/60. In the latter one, the difference is really big but not really bigger than point production, and I think that weighs more heavily.

Of all our players, Franson might have been the main cause of the biggest share of goals let in when on the ice. That's why so many dislike him, that's his weakness as a hockey player and that's something that doesn't show up in stats.

Thank you, someone reads my posts and then responds.

I am saying exactly that, to an Arbitrator, Franson will look better than Gardiner, because he is statstistically better. Even possesssion stats, he was our best possession D man last year, and 2nd this year.

Points, the biggest one to Artbitrator's, he has led our defence 2 years in a row. These things tip the scale for Franson. No one can say Gardiner is far superior when it comes to the arbitration process. It just isn't true.

 

[diceman934]

You posted this quote in post #112 here right? Your words no one else's. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1714315&page=5



I challenged this assertion by posting a very detailed stats comparison. It is incumbent on you to prove your statement, and to defute the factual stats I presented.

No one was talking Kadri and Bozak in this thread until you tried to post off topic again.

It's simple, back up your opiniom, and try if you can to defute the stats I posted.

Really....you started this whole discussion when you spoke as a arbitrator's view point. When I stated that was a part of a post when I was speaking about value period.

I do not think that Franson is of more value according to what the evidence that is allowed ...you posted advance stats and they are not allowed.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I'd say 5 years @ 3.5 mill is really good. I'd go up to 7 years and 4.25 mill.