How long do you want Gardiner signed?

[KrisLetAngry]

I'd say 5 years @ 3.5 mill is really good. I'd go up to 7 years and 4.25 mill.

Gardiner here is 8 years for 5.4 aav

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'd like a $3x3 deal personally ... Fits well with the Leafs cap structure and is a good deal for both sides (value wise)

 

[StuckOutHere]

I'd do 7 years. $3.7M AAV. $25.9M total. Otherwise, cool with the bridge.

 

[crump]

cap geek available cap space for this season : $3,072,000

burying contracts like Smith, Orr Bodie would give them about 1.5 mil extra I think

 

[diceman934]

cap geek available cap space for this season : $3,072,000

We gave a lot more room then that there are players currently on the cap that will not likely be on the roster come start of the season. There are 17 forwards listed we will only keep 14 max and we will need a 7 d man. So 3 forwards on the roster will not be on our roster starting the year and Gardiner and a D man will be. Smith , Ashton and pick another are gone. That is around 2 million savings then add a D man for around 850000 that leaves us well over 4 million to sign Gardiner. So lots of options still to sign him to many types of deals. ..With 2 to 6 year terms.

 

[crump]

We gave a lot more room then that there are players currently on the cap that will not likely be on the roster come start of the season. There are 17 forwards listed we will only keep 14 max and we will need a 7 d man. So 3 forwards on the roster will not be on our roster starting the year and Gardiner and a D man will be. Smith , Ashton and pick another are gone. That is around 2 million savings then add a D man for around 850000 that leaves us well over 4 million to sign Gardiner. So lots of options still to sign him to many types of deals. ..With 2 to 6 year terms.

Sorry..yes. Looks good for a nice contract for Gardiner.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Really....you started this whole discussion when you spoke as a arbitrator's view point. When I stated that was a part of a post when I was speaking about value period.

I do not think that Franson is of more value according to what the evidence that is allowed ...you posted advance stats and they are not allowed.

Okay buddy, you have convinced me, Gardiner is vastly superior to Franson so he is going to sign for only 3.5M per for 7 year contract as you suggested.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Interactif

You should be embaressed because that post avoided the facts I posted, you didn't address a single point in my post. Still waiting for you to prove to me how Gardiner is vastly superior to Franson.

Just for the record, I never made claims Franson was better, let's be clear there. I am taking issue of the statement, Gardiner is vastly superior. So I await for someone to prove to me he is.

Feel free to add to my quick snapshot of player stats comparison, this is a free discussion, I am only pointing out to the poster that his reply that Gardiner is far better only carries in opinion. When you stack up stats side by side, Franson is better on the whole than Gardiner is. Opinions only count on message boards, to Arbitrator's they look at the cases of the hockey team, and the player agent. What I presented is what most likely a hockey team would present say if Gardiner's demands are ridculous.

Please refer to the bolded points for a textbook definition of contradiction.

You said Franson is better overall, than Gardiner. I completely disagree, as do the overall stats. If your argument is that points hold more weight in an arbitration hearing, you may have a point, although last year their points differential was 2, and Gardiner has twice as many goals, with less PP time. The offensive stats are even, or probably slightly in Gardiner's favour. The +/- also weighs heavily towards Gardiner. Franson only has a clear edge in hits.

I never said Gardiner is vastly superior. I said there's a clear edge between the two. Franson has signed 3 consecutive 1 year deals. Gardiner is likely to get a multi-year deal, with a lot of talk that it may be relatively long-term. Obviously, our management team agrees with my point of view.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Please refer to the bolded points for a textbook definition of contradiction.

You said Franson is better overall, than Gardiner. I completely disagree, as do the overall stats. If your argument is that points hold more weight in an arbitration hearing, you may have a point, although last year their points differential was 2, and Gardiner has twice as many goals, with less PP time. The offensive stats are even, or probably slightly in Gardiner's favour. The +/- also weighs heavily towards Gardiner. Franson only has a clear edge in hits.

I never said Gardiner is vastly superior. I said there's a clear edge between the two. Franson has signed 3 consecutive 1 year deals. Gardiner is likely to get a multi-year deal, with a lot of talk that it may be relatively long-term. Obviously, our management team agrees with my point of view.

Never said Franson was better, the conversation was clearly from a contract/arbitration viewpoint. But if you want to go down that road, I agree with the poster that said Gardiner is a 3.5 M per contract hit. Which indicates he is not vastly superior to Franson and both are support players that may be dispensible on the team.

Again statistically, Gardiner is not vastly superior to Franson, as I illustrated. No one can prove he is from a contract/arbitration persepective. Otherwise they would have rebutted the stats I posted.

It just isn't from a stats viewpoint.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

I personally want a 4-5 year contract. nothing too fancy.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Never said Franson was better, the conversation was clearly from a contract/arbitration viewpoint. But if you want to go down that road, I agree with the poster that said Gardiner is a 3.5 M per contract hit. Which indicates he is not vastly superior to Franson and both are support players that may be dispensible on the team.

Again statistically, Gardiner is not vastly superior to Franson, as I illustrated. No one can prove he is from a contract/arbitration persepective. Otherwise they would have rebutted the stats I posted.

It just isn't from a stats viewpoint.

Not sure how you can say that after I posted evidence to the contrary.

Statistically, Gardiner is superior to Franson. Is he vastly superior? Probably. +/- suggests that Franson was horrendous, except when he was riding Gardiner's coattails last season, while Gardiner was just fine when we was paired with other players.

 

[WTFMAN99]

2 years at 2.5M per, bridge deal

 

[Nithoniniel]

Not sure how you can say that after I posted evidence to the contrary.

Statistically, Gardiner is superior to Franson. Is he vastly superior? Probably. +/- suggests that Franson was horrendous, except when he was riding Gardiner's coattails last season, while Gardiner was just fine when we was paired with other players.

Not sure how often the poor guy has to repeat this, but he's been talking about Franson having a better case at arbitration and not that he is a better player. It might have been worded badly, but he's explained what he meant many times now so I'm not sure why you and others continue to hold that against him.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Not sure how often the poor guy has to repeat this, but he's been talking about Franson having a better case at arbitration and not that he is a better player. It might have been worded badly, but he's explained what he meant many times now so I'm not sure why you and others continue to hold that against him.

He said clearly that Franson is better overall. I'm not sure overall differs from an arbitrator's perspective, but he posted a myriad of stats as if there is some "Arbitrator's Guide to NHL player value" on google.

I presented more stats that show Gardiner is better overall. The assumption that the arbitrator is only relying on the evidence presented by Interactif is begging the question. No one here actually knows exactly what the arbitrator will use.

Any stat is fair game. And when they are presented in context, the only clear edge Franson has is in hits.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Not sure how you can say that after I posted evidence to the contrary.

Statistically, Gardiner is superior to Franson. Is he vastly superior? Probably. +/- suggests that Franson was horrendous, except when he was riding Gardiner's coattails last season, while Gardiner was just fine when we was paired with other players.

You posted one plus minus stat, that I included in my post that Gardiner having the edge on. So that was part of my stats by stats comparison. You miss that too?

Let's face it, you can't prove I am incorrect, so you might just admit, from a stats point of view as it pertains to arbitration, which you claim you did not know we were talking about.

Gardiner is not vastly better than Franson. That was the point, since we are discussing Gardiner's contract, it's in the title of the thread so I don't know how many more times I have to explain this.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

You posted one plus minus stat, that I included in my post that Gardiner having the edge on. So that was part of my stats by stats comparison. You miss that too?

Let's face it, you can't prove I am incorrect, so you might just admit, from a stats point of view as it pertains to arbitration, which you claim you did not know we were talking about.

Gardiner is not vastly better than Franson. That was the point, since we are discussing Gardiner's contract, it's in the title of the thread so I don't know how many more times I have to explain this.

Two players. About equal in points. One with double the goals. Nearly identical usage. Massive +/- gap.

Gardiner's clearly better. You can debate the degree all you want.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Two players. About equal in points. One with double the goals. Nearly identical usage. Massive +/- gap.

Gardiner's clearly better. You can debate the degree all you want.

Like I said, your argument came down to one stat, when I posted a much more detailed stats comparison.

Glad to see you adopt this position. Bozak is clearly better than Kadri then. Identical points, massive + - gap.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Like I said, your argument came down to one stat, when I posted a much more detailed stats comparison.

Glad to see you adopt this position. Bozak is clearly better than Kadri then. Identical points, massive + - gap.

Your cherry-picking stats and even years to produce a Franson advantage. Nothing detailed about it. Mostly just bias crowding your viewpoint.

Bozak is better than Kadri today. I've never disputed that. I just think Kadri will be better in the long-run, and that his development should take priority.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Your cherry-picking stats and even years to produce a Franson advantage. Nothing detailed about it. Mostly just bias crowding your viewpoint.

Bozak is better than Kadri today. I've never disputed that. I just think Kadri will be better in the long-run, and that his development should take priority.

What cherry picked stats? I said you could add to them, which you did. I added the plus minus stats to the stats comparison and even posted Gardinerhad an edge.

Anything else you want answered? It seems to me despite meeting all of your conditions, you still can't make the case Gardiner is vastly superior than Franson from the contract/arbitration view we were discussing.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

What cherry picked stats? I said you could add to them, which you did. I added the plus minus stats to the stats comparison and even posted Gardinerhad an edge.

Anything else you want answered? It seems to me despite meeting all of your conditions, you still can't make the case Gardiner is vastly superior than Franson from the contract/arbitration view we were discussing.

Post 142 detailed in-depth how many stats you cherry-picked, such as age (wtf), aggregate points (ignoring a massive games played differential), and GF/60 (ignoring GA/60).

You give Franson the same edge when the stats are nearly identical, and you give Gardiner an equal edge when the difference is massive.

For example, refer to your opinion on the 2013 and 2013-14 +/- numbers.

Another swiss-cheese argument on your part. Nonetheless, I'm happy, as always, to enlighten you.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Post 142 detailed in-depth how many stats you cherry-picked, such as age (wtf), aggregate points (ignoring a massive games played differential), and GF/60 (ignoring GA/60).

You give Franson the same edge when the stats are nearly identical, and you give Gardiner an equal edge when the difference is massive.

For example, refer to your opinion on the 2013 and 2013-14 +/- numbers.

Another swiss-cheese argument on your part. Nonetheless, I'm happy, as always, to enlighten you.

Like I said many times, you could add to my findings, in which I did, when you cited plus minus, how this constitutes your claim of cherry picking I don't know.

Regardless, from your lack of advantageous stats you want to offer up for Gardiner, I guess my assertion will stand.

Gardiner is not vastly superior to Franson, from a stats/contract/arbitration point of view.

You were Given 24 hours to come up with a good rebuttal, time to close the book on this one.

 

[Faltorvo]

We gave a lot more room then that there are players currently on the cap that will not likely be on the roster come start of the season. There are 17 forwards listed we will only keep 14 max and we will need a 7 d man. So 3 forwards on the roster will not be on our roster starting the year and Gardiner and a D man will be. Smith , Ashton and pick another are gone. That is around 2 million savings then add a D man for around 850000 that leaves us well over 4 million to sign Gardiner. So lots of options still to sign him to many types of deals. ..With 2 to 6 year terms.

actually when the 3 forwards are dropped and the 7th D is added it will be just a shade over 4 million.

smith,ashton,bodie, for arguments sake add 2 million to the avail 3m=5m

granb,holz,mcwill and the likes down there are all in the 750,850 range and don't rule out a 1m,2.5m scrape heap inking.

so best guess we have about 4.2m to ink gards.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Like I said many times, you could add to my findings, in which I did, when you cited plus minus, how this constitutes your claim of cherry picking I don't know.

Regardless, from your lack of advantageous stats you want to offer up for Gardiner, I guess my assertion will stand.

Gardiner is not vastly superior to Franson, from a stats/contract/arbitration point of view.

You were Given 24 hours to come up with a good rebuttal, time to close the book on this one.

You're just ignoring the stats I mentioned. I mentioned GA/60, and rate stats (i.e. pts/game) instead of randomly taking aggregate stats and ranking stats for no apparent reason in either case.

Nonetheless, since you are asserting only that Gardiner is not vastly superior, I guess you're admitting that he is superior. Which is good enough for me.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You're just ignoring the stats I mentioned. I mentioned GA/60, and rate stats (i.e. pts/game) instead of randomly taking aggregate stats and ranking stats for no apparent reason in either case.

Nonetheless, since you are asserting only that Gardiner is not vastly superior, I guess you're admitting that he is superior. Which is good enough for me.

Why did I take an aggregate of Franson's 2 years of being our highest scoring Defenceman?

Do you think the team and his agent negotiated his new 3.3M per contract on just last season's totals? Obcourse not, it all matters. And this is why he has the advantage in this stat compared to Gardiner.

 

[Mansfield]

https://twitter.com/HennyTweets/status/494231514922483712

Paul Hendrick
‏@HennyTweets
Leafs and Jake Gardiner appear to be closing in on a new contract. Indications point toward a long term deal. #TMLtalk

While I'd be okay with a bridge deal, I think gardiner has proven he can be a consistent top 4. as long as the cap hit is in the 3-3.5 area i'm okay with signing him long term