It makes you wonder, had he spent his career in Colorado playing with Sakic, would he be on a level with Forsberg, as opposed to the clear second best Swedish forward of our time.Same when he played for Sweden. Seems like so many times he scored big goals for us. Probably better than Forsberg internationally, especially in big games. Great leader. Increased his relative production during Stanley Cup playoffs. Got stuck on a team usually without players who could help his points production during regular season. A success story everywhere else. Multiple All Star selection on best-on-best international tournaments, as well as World Championships. Very good finisher, for example on breakaways where it seemed he usually scored.
During age 20-21, Sundin outscored Joe Sakic when both played for QUE, despite Sakic being two years older). Per game slightly less though.
Sundin (20-21 years old): 160 gp, 80 goals, 210 pts, +2, 1.31 ppg.
Sakic (22-23 years old): 147 gp, 77 goals, 199 pts, +2, 1.35 ppg.
Then Sundin went to TOR, while Sakic got to play on a loaded COL where players like Forsberg helped his production and playoffs success.
North Americans knows Sundin from his NHL play, where he played on a relatively poor team, that rarely went far enough in the playoffs. Europeans knows him basically from his international play.
Put him on a contender and he likely would have won a few Stanley Cups, scoring some big goals on the way, and perhaps getting Conn Smythe consideration (see international play).
Very low profile off the ice compared to Forsberg and Salming. Sundin is basically never seen in the media, while Forsberg and Salming do are usually seen at least once per week (doing commercials and participating in different tv-programs).
It makes you wonder, had he spent his career in Colorado playing with Sakic, would he be on a level with Forsberg, as opposed to the clear second best Swedish forward of our time.
Being too young + living in Sweden, I never saw Sundin playing in the NHL. Of course I saw him playing for Sweden and he was one of our best players, but... he was nowhere near Peter Forsberg.
Forsberg could completely dominate a game regardless of competition. Mats Sundin never did that. On his plus side he was rarely injured and very consistent (apart from Belarus in 2002 olympics).
So, how good was he? Was he ever dominant in the NHL or was he (as his stats suggest) Mr Consistent? Peak wise how would you rank him against other Swedish forwards of the era such as Renberg, Alfredsson and Markus Näslund?
I dint know. Lets say they dont and sundin, forsberg, sakic, Blake, foote, drury, hejduk, deadmarsh, patrick roy, tanguay, ozolinsh, claude lemieux, mike ricci, owen nolan, are all combinations of his teammates and linemates over the years...in this scenario, does quebec trade forsberg to toronto for wendel clark and sylvain lefebvre instead?
I dint know. Lets say they dont and sundin, forsberg, sakic, Blake, foote, drury, hejduk, deadmarsh, patrick roy, tanguay, ozolinsh, claude lemieux, mike ricci, owen nolan, are all combinations of his teammates and linemates over the years...
Am i missing anyone? The avs had piles 9f great players over a 5 or 6 year span. Not even including ray bourque.
Sure we can play waht ifs all we want, but id rather not. Its boring.If they do not trade Sundin there is probably no Lemieux, that was acquired in the 3 team deal and implied Wendel Clark that was acquired by Sundin trade. Without Lemieux they probably do not trade Nolan for Ozolinsh and if they do maybe they keep Deadmarsh instead of getting Blake, there is a lot of what if history without that first trade and all the drafted player obviously shift.
They were a well managed team that were smart enough to target and acquire great players. Its not like trading sundin for clark or whatever was the magic move that led them to becoming an elite team. Quite frankly if youre trying to suggest it started a series of events that led tobthem being a great team, you should probably rethink that.
I dint know. Lets say they dont and sundin, forsberg, sakic, Blake, foote, drury, hejduk, deadmarsh, patrick roy, tanguay, ozolinsh, claude lemieux, mike ricci, owen nolan, are all combinations of his teammates and linemates over the years...
Am i missing anyone? The avs had piles 9f great players over a 5 or 6 year span. Not even including ray bourque.
Backhand : Didnt he have no curve on his stick?Sundin is often a player I mention who is like this. Probably better than the PPG year after year - even in the dead puck era - that he was. Didn't have the linemates he needed and carried the load a lot in Toronto but was never injured, never took a game off and for the life of me I never understand the flack he sometimes got by the fans. He gave his blood to that team. No, he didn't fight and wasn't overly physical but he used his size for much different things. He was very hard to knock off the puck as well because of his size and reach and such. Part of the reason he had such a good backhand was that he could spread his legs open and protect the puck giving him the opportunity to roof it.
Sundin was not soft by any means, I would consider Matthews soft on the Leafs, and unable (so far) to play when the going got tough. Sundin wasn't a playoff monster, but he was never the reason the Leafs lost. Had a career similar to Mike Modano (styles were different) in that they were consistently very good for a long time. Consistently a top 15-20ish player in the game year after year. I like the above John Tavares comparison too.
asking if sundin would be considered as good as forsberg if they got to play on the same team their whole careers seems... farfetched.
i mean, you're asking sundin to be as good as a guy who led the playoffs in scoring twice and won the MVP and scoring title.
yes, it's possible that sundin's scoring gets a bump from being surrounded many great offensive players, including forsberg. but on the other hand, forsberg has all those same guys to help his stats and, being pretty universally considered the greater offensive talent, would almost certainly get more and better opportunities to score than sundin.
But Sundin actually did the same things as Forsberg, although he did it for Sweden rather than TOR. He did it over and over. So they actually have played for the same team (Sweden), where Sundin did at least as well as Forsberg. This includes best-on-best tournaments, which actually are quite comparable to the NHL playoffs.
Obviously, Forsberg was better than Sundin. However, it's not as big a difference as the NHL-centric view would make some of us think. My understanding is that Sundin has the bigger rep in Sweden. I do think it's fair to point out that, after he left Quebec (incl. 114-point season), Sundin never again was not the sole focus of the opposition's checkers. Forsberg's team, by contrast, was winning Cup Finals with him on the sidelines, a laughably impossible condition to imagine with the Leafs and Sundin.
I don’t want to rag on Sundin for being deemed dispensable for the Nordiques or whatever, in other words I don’t think you should discredit his appreciable value because of that trade: but I’m also not sure (how could you be?) the Avs would have won cups if they’d kept Sundin instead of trading for Lemieux. On paper, the Avs with Sakic, Forsberg AND Sundin of course looks even crazier good than they already were in 1996, but knowing what Lemieux meant for the Avs’ cup run in 1996, it’s just hard to say that they made a bad move or something. Lemieux was later involved in the trade that brought over Ray Bourque as well, so I see a lot of wins for a lot of teams with these trades.
I don't think that's correct.
But Bourque is linked to Sundin in that they were bitter rivals. So many physical battles on the ice for two players that were not known for that kind of play.
But Sundin actually did the same things as Forsberg, although he did it for Sweden rather than TOR. He did it over and over. So they actually have played for the same team (Sweden), where Sundin did at least as well as Forsberg. This includes best-on-best tournaments, which actually are quite comparable to the NHL playoffs.
I don’t want to rag on Sundin for being deemed dispensable for the Nordiques or whatever, in other words I don’t think you should discredit his appreciable value because of that trade: but I’m also not sure (how could you be?) the Avs would have won cups if they’d kept Sundin instead of trading for Lemieux. On paper, the Avs with Sakic, Forsberg AND Sundin of course looks even crazier good than they already were in 1996, but knowing what Lemieux meant for the Avs’ cup run in 1996, it’s just hard to say that they made a bad move or something. Lemieux was later involved in the trade that brought over Ray Bourque as well, so I see a lot of wins for a lot of teams with these trades.
i guess for me i just never watched sundin and thought, this guy could lead the league in scoring.
but on the other hand, i never thought that about the sedins either so what do i know?
Good points.
Another example might be Markus Näslund, who internationally (except for the World Junior championship playing with Peter Forsberg and a young Niklas Sundström) never reached Sundin's heights. I think at least 9 out of 10 Swedes would say Sundin was the far superior player.
Was Sundin some world beater in the playoffs? not to any degree that compares to their careers.Malkin is definitely on a different tier, but when you look at Thornton's playoff record, is he really that much higher than Sundin?