How good was Mats Sundin?

[Johnny Engine]

I also saw a couple of posts saying Sundin's teams weren't as void of talent as some are saying. I am trying to remember Sundin's line mates and I literally can't. That is how invisible they were. I am remembering Mogilny and Roberts now but they were pretty much in the last 3-4 years of their careers. I think some seasons Darcey Tucker was their second leading scorer.

Using a combination of my memories and scoring logs, this appears to be Sundin's help:

1995: On Doug Gilmour's wing with Dave Andreychuk. Later in the season, Mike Gartner replaces Andreychuk.
1996: The line blender is in full effect, but is mostly attached Benoit Hogue for the first half of the season before Hogue was traded. Pretty much any important forward for the Leafs this season spent time with Sundin.
1997: Wendel Clark and Sergei Berezin, with a large amount of Gilmour before he was traded.
1998: Mainly Mike Johnson and Derek King.
1999: This is where Steve Thomas comes in, the first guy I remember being proactively attached to Sundin for a long period of time. Fredrik Modin was the other guy, and he was famously dumped in the playoffs in favour of Lonny Bohonos.
2000: Bohonos is let go and Jonas Hoglund is signed to play with Sundin and Thomas
2001: More Hoglund and Thomas
2002: They bring in Mikael Renberg to form the "Tre Kronor" line with Sundin and Hoglund. Young JE is very excited because this must mean Lindros is coming too.
2003: Alexander Mogilny replaces an ineffective Hoglund on Sundin and Renberg's line.
2004: Gary Roberts joins Sundin and Mogilny, and for half a season we get the line many assume was together for a few years. Renberg is back from November to February as Mogilny misses time.
2006: The next three seasons are remembered for a much maligned pair of Nik Antropov and Alexei Ponikarovsky, but it appears Sundin started with Jeff O'Neill and Alex Steen, before the Kazonskis joined the line.
2007: Kyle Wellwood replaces an injured Antropov, before being injured himself. Then back to the Kazonskis.
2008: The infamous Jason Blake signing briefly takes Ponikarovsky off the first line, but we know how that worked. Antropov is a fixture, and has a productive season on a very bad team. Alex Steen gets some time later in the season.

 

[trentmccleary]

I also saw a couple of posts saying Sundin's teams weren't as void of talent as some are saying. I am trying to remember Sundin's line mates and I literally can't. That is how invisible they were. I am remembering Mogilny and Roberts now but they were pretty much in the last 3-4 years of their careers. I think some seasons Darcey Tucker was their second leading scorer.

Sundin played in Toronto for 13 seasons:
They were 6th in GF, 8th in GA and 9th in points/W%

Goaltending:
They had All Star goalies for half his tenure between 1998-2004 (Joseph & Belfour). Competent goaltending in Potvin for a 1/4 and terrible goaltending for 1/4 post-lockout.

Offense from defense:
They had a Top-10 scoring d-man in 7 seasons, half of his tenure. And two Top-20 scoring d-men in 10 seasons, so 3/4 of his seasons. Both well above average.

Offense up front:
True, they didn't have another high scoring in all be a few seasons (Gilmour, Thomas & Mogilny). However, the forwards did post above average goals in most seasons. In addition to Sundin, Toronto forwards cracked the top-60 in goals 20 times beyond Sundin's 13 times (14, 20, 22, 22, 25, 29, 30, 33, 34, 37, 43, 48, *50, 54, 55, 55, 56, 57) for 33 times in 13 years. 2.54 is above average, but they averaged 3 per year if you remove 98, 06, 07, 08.
(*50 is the season they traded Andreychuk and brought in Clark at the deadline. They combined for 50th).

Sundin joined during the decline of the Gilmour era, which wasn't terrible.
The 1997-98 rebuild was terrible.
The 6 seasons from 1998-2004 were very strong all round Leafs teams and yes, Sundin actually had very good linemates for the period.
The team declined post-lockout, primarily due to the goaltending collapse.


For the record, these were the players that Sundin scored points with placed in the rough periods that they played together most:
Quebec: 99 Sakic, 54 Kamensky, 47 Nolan, 38 Ricci, 30 S.Young
Tor 95-97: 58 Gilmour, 24 Hogue, 23 Gartner, 18 Andreychuk, 18 Clark
Tor 97-99: 46 Berezin, 31 Modin, 30 Korolev, 19 King
Tor 99-04: 124 Thomas, 100 Hoglund, 68 Renberg, 66 Roberts, 60 Mogilny
Tor 05-08: 72 Antropov, 52 Ponikarovsky, 50 Tucker, 31 Steen, 20 O’Neill
Van 09: 16 Kesler, 15 Demitra

 

[Peiskos]

Statistically speaking one of, if not the greatest Swedes to ever play in the NHL at the forward position and one of the greatest forwards in league history as well. 28th all time in NHL points just behind Guy Lafleur and just ahead of Dave Andreychuk.

Most goals ever by a Swede - 564
Third most assists ever by a Swede - 785
Most points ever by a Swede - 1,349
2nd highest PPG amongst all time Swedes - 1.002 per game

People will obviously bring up Peter Forsberg but I counter with longevity, I find it rather convenient that so many people overlook longevity and durability when it comes to the overall ranking of a player, its just as much apart of a players legacy as his points totals were. Mats Sundin had it, Forsberg did not, there was always a reason Sundin was selected to be the captain of that absolutely loaded 2006 Swedish Olympic team.

But this isn't a comparison, to answer the question, he was a definitely in that franchise player tier.

 

[Johnny Engine]

For the record, these were the players that Sundin scored points with placed in the rough periods that they played together most:
Quebec: 99 Sakic, 54 Kamensky, 47 Nolan, 38 Ricci, 30 S.Young
Tor 95-97: 58 Gilmour, 24 Hogue, 23 Gartner, 18 Andreychuk, 18 Clark
Tor 97-99: 46 Berezin, 31 Modin, 30 Korolev, 19 King
Tor 99-04: 124 Thomas, 100 Hoglund, 68 Renberg, 66 Roberts, 60 Mogilny
Tor 05-08: 72 Antropov, 52 Ponikarovsky, 50 Tucker, 31 Steen, 20 O’Neill
Van 09: 16 Kesler, 15 Demitra

To unify the posts we both made on the topic a little, the two players I didn't mention in my year by year rundown - Korolev and Tucker - got a lot of power play points with Sundin. In Korolev's case, he was the #2 centre for most of the late 90s, and in Tucker's case, he was notably a power play net front guy, and also hung around on the team long enough to accumulate a fair number of here-and-there points with Sundin.

The interesting takeaway from this exercise is how little Steve Thomas gets talked about among Sundin's linemates - and that's because he doesn't prove a useful point for anyone's dramatic argument. Someone will start on about how much Jonas Hoglund and Nike Antropov sucked, and someone else will whatabout Alexander Mogilny and Doug Gilmour, but it doesn't serve either side to point out that he spent 3 years in the prime of his career consistently clicking with a more or less average first line winger. In some ways Thomas is Sundin's Chris Kunitz - neither very exciting nor a drag on his famous linemate.

 

[scott clam]

Statistically speaking one of, if not the greatest Swedes to ever play in the NHL at the forward position and one of the greatest forwards in league history as well. 28th all time in NHL points just behind Guy Lafleur and just ahead of Dave Andreychuk.

Most goals ever by a Swede - 564
Third most assists ever by a Swede - 785
Most points ever by a Swede - 1,349
2nd highest PPG amongst all time Swedes - 1.002 per game

People will obviously bring up Peter Forsberg but I counter with longevity, I find it rather convenient that so many people overlook longevity and durability when it comes to the overall ranking of a player, its just as much apart of a players legacy as his points totals were. Mats Sundin had it, Forsberg did not, there was always a reason Sundin was selected to be the captain of that absolutely loaded 2006 Swedish Olympic team.

But this isn't a comparison, to answer the question, he was a definitely in that franchise player tier.

It's kindof like Howe versus Orr. Orr has the more dominant peak, but Howe's prime was twice as long as Orr's career.

Something that always hurts Sundin's case was that the Nordiques considered him expendable enough to trade for Clark, after Forsberg came to North America.

 

[Seanaconda]

It's kindof like Howe versus Orr. Orr had a more dominant peak, but Howe's prime was twice as long as Orr's career.

Something that always hurts Sundin's case was that the Nordiques considered him expendable enough to trade for Clark, after Forsberg came to North America.

it kinda is I guess but orr is always rated better .

forsbergs funky foot was so weird tho

I get both were reduced by injuries ( like the top 3 were too gretzky got his back destroyed , lemieux had back cancer retired came back , orr had his legs destroyed . howe played forever and left to a different league then came back for a season or two so he is kinda like if jagr had kids

 

[feffan]

The interesting takeaway from this exercise is how little Steve Thomas gets talked about among Sundin's linemates - and that's because he doesn't prove a useful point for anyone's dramatic argument. Someone will start on about how much Jonas Hoglund and Nike Antropov sucked, and someone else will whatabout Alexander Mogilny and Doug Gilmour, but it doesn't serve either side to point out that he spent 3 years in the prime of his career consistently clicking with a more or less average first line winger. In some ways Thomas is Sundin's Chris Kunitz - neither very exciting nor a drag on his famous linemate.

I think you´r giving 35+ Thomas to much credit. At that time of his career I would say Thomas was a average 2nd liner without being on Sundins wing. He hadn´t reached thoose kind of TP/PPG since the 93/94 season when he was 30 and all of the sudden 5 years later he after gradually sinking almost dubbled his PPG directley from the season before when placed with Sundin. And dropped back again after traded. For fun reference, Höglund in 99/00 actually had more goals and just 7 points less than Thomas when both played alot on Sundins wing the same season. And even if Thomas still at 35+ was the better all round player than "prime" Höglund by far I would believe Sundin helped them both about equal if just looking at point totals thoose years. This wasn´t Chicago/NYI Thomas. This was 15 years in to his career Thomas who suddenly had two good/great seasons out of nowhere in his mid 30´s. And the major thing different was that he was on Sundins wing thoose 2 years... Renberg also propelled up to over 0.7 PPG his first season on Sundins wing, after not really sniffin that since his first stint in Philly. Just as Berezin went from 0.6/0.7 to 0.3/0.4 when "traded off" Sundins wing. Mogilny still was the only first liner he played with in Toronto as far as I´m concerned. But to be honest I don´t think they matched good ES. And that´s the obvious reason they drove one line each. And even the season Mogilny outscored Sundin, it was Sundin getting all the main coverage from oppossin teams.

Sundin with good players and a tought out line was the one that was seen in Tre Kronor. That line with Alfredsson - Sundin - Axelsson was maybe the best composed line Sweden has had in the last 30 years. Contender for best Tre Kronor line ever as far as I´m concerned. And a taste what could have been if Toronto had aquired a first liner that actually played as Sundin and a smart responsible defensive forward who maybe if not having offensive instinct at least wasn´t completley lost in the offensive zone and could distrubiate the puck.

It´s a shame they traded Modin too early. Him in his prime would have been Sundins best winger and I think a good match. Would had loved to see a few seasons in the NHL with either Alfredsson or Lethinen on his wing. Would have been magic.

 

[JuJu Mobb]

Compared to more recent NHL centers, who do you pick between...

Mats Sundin or Evgeni Malkin

Mats Sundin or Niklas Backstrom

Mats Sundin or Jonathan Toews

Mats Sundin or Joe Thornthon

Mats Sundin or Henrik Sedin

Mats Sundin or Eric Staal

Mats Sundin or Anze Kopitar

 

[feffan]

Compared to more recent NHL centers, who do you pick between...

Mats Sundin or Evgeni Malkin

Mats Sundin or Niklas Backstrom

Mats Sundin or Jonathan Toews

Mats Sundin or Joe Thornthon

Mats Sundin or Henrik Sedin

Mats Sundin or Eric Staal

Mats Sundin or Anze Kopitar

Malkin is the only one that instinctinvly is obvious. Thornton would probably be hard to argue against, but I would personally rather have Sundin as my first line C on a team than Joe. I've followed and watched the swedes more than the others mentioned. Staal least seen. No doubt to me Sundin was a better player than Sedin and Bäckström. And I at first tought place them above everyone but named Malkin and Thornton...

 

[ESH]

Just an excellent player, year to year. You knew what you were getting from Sundin going into the season. That makes the GM and coach's job easier. Those guys let him down. And I think people are conflating the word 'consistent' with 'compiler' here. Guy was like clockwork.

He played close to twice as many games as Peter Forsberg (638 more than Foppa's 708 in the RS), most of them as the only elite option for his team, compared with Forsberg's 1a 1b with Sakic. I don't even think it's fair to compare the two, work load-wise.

Sundin turned Sergei Berezin into a 37 goal scorer. Forsberg never came close to that number himself.

Not that it’s all that important in the greater discussion, but Sundin had almost no part in Berezin scoring 37 goals.

Of the 37 goals Berezin scored that regular season, a grand total of 3 were assisted on by Sundin.

 

[Bustedprospect]

Strong center overall. Mats could score, great at shielding the puck, great reach, pass the puck, somewhat decent in his own zone and a great leader.

Overall not many reach to this in a career so he is in HOF but also in our memories.

 

[Hobnobs]

Its pretty remarkable as to what he did for the leafs considering how that team just wasted his career. I'd say hes one of the biggest what ifs in the NHL

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Forever a Canuck~*

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Compared to more recent NHL centers, who do you pick between...

Mats Sundin or Evgeni Malkin

Mats Sundin or Niklas Backstrom

Mats Sundin or Jonathan Toews

Mats Sundin or Joe Thornthon

Mats Sundin or Henrik Sedin

Mats Sundin or Eric Staal

Mats Sundin or Anze Kopitar

Malkin, Sundin, tie, Sundin, Sedin, Sundin, and another tie

 

[seventieslord]

Malkin, Sundin, tie, Sundin, Sedin, Sundin, and another tie

Sedin > Sundin > Thornton? You have that completely backwards.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Honest to God I'd take Sundin to start a franchise any day over Thornton. Sundin will give you sufficient offense for a 1st line center. A contending team should be able to work with that "15th in NHL" level of production. If the offensive gap between them is what makes your team miss the playoffs, you were never a contender to begin with, at which point who cares? But if you're a contender, Sundin won't let you down the way Thornton would.

 

[K Fleur]

Taking Sundin over Thornton is atleast more defensible than taking Lecavalier over Thornton.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Taking Sundin over Thornton is atleast more defensible than taking Lecavalier over Thornton.

Both are easy choices if I had real stakes in play. The accolades are nice but ultimately worthless if we zoom in on the goal of hockey which is to win the Stanley Cup.

Thornton might work if you have another very good #1 center, I don't know. But he has not demonstrated anything of note in the playoffs in his very long career. His 100 playoff points is the result of a compiler. I never felt he stepped up his game, and more often than not you felt his game declined. Maybe that's not his fault, maybe teams adapted to him more in the series format. But it doesn't matter whose fault it is. The result is the same.

 

[authentic]

Sedin > Sundin > Thornton? You have that completely backwards.

I would say based on peak alone either Sedin has a pretty good case against Sundin considering Hart trophy, Art Ross and all, but it's hard to separate their true ability as an individual player seeing as how a large part of it comes with playing with an equally skilled twin brother their entire lives. I do recall that in Henrik's Hart season Daniel missed 19 games and Henrik had 11 goals and 18 points so he upped his goal total but the overall points per game dropped as expected. It's also a small sample though so it's hard to conclude too much from it, but I think it's more likely than not that over the course of a full season even at their peaks they would see atleast a 10-15 point drop off, so in that sense I'm not sure either were really better overall players than Sundin at his peak, but at the very least they're in the conversation.

 

[authentic]

Taking Sundin over Thornton is atleast more defensible than taking Lecavalier over Thornton.

For a career sure. At their best? No.

 

[mattihp]

Sundin's determination and leadership is top 15 NHL all-time.

He stayed on the Leafs too long, his numbers and hardware case have suffered.

His early games showed his offensive potential.

 

[mattihp]

With this I just disagree. Forsberg could single handedly turn a game around. I never saw Sundin do that. But of course he was very good.

As a Finn I must say that Sundin was the guy who turned games around. Forsberg produced, but Mats had the iron will and the ability to get his team mates going. And kill so many Finnish dreams...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Sundin's determination and leadership is top 15 NHL all-time.

He stayed on the Leafs too long, his numbers and hardware case have suffered.

His early games showed his offensive potential.

Yeah, no.

 

[mattihp]

Yeah, no.

International play counts too.

 

[BenchBrawl]

International play counts too.

Even still, he's not close to the Top 15 all-time. All-time is a long time...well, around 130 years for our purpose.