How good was Mats Sundin?

joe dirte

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Same when he played for Sweden. Seems like so many times he scored big goals for us. Probably better than Forsberg internationally, especially in big games. Great leader. Increased his relative production during Stanley Cup playoffs. Got stuck on a team usually without players who could help his points production during regular season. A success story everywhere else. Multiple All Star selection on best-on-best international tournaments, as well as World Championships. Very good finisher, for example on breakaways where it seemed he usually scored.

During age 20-21, Sundin outscored Joe Sakic when both played for QUE, despite Sakic being two years older). Per game slightly less though.
Sundin (20-21 years old): 160 gp, 80 goals, 210 pts, +2, 1.31 ppg.
Sakic (22-23 years old): 147 gp, 77 goals, 199 pts, +2, 1.35 ppg.
Then Sundin went to TOR, while Sakic got to play on a loaded COL where players like Forsberg helped his production and playoffs success.

North Americans knows Sundin from his NHL play, where he played on a relatively poor team, that rarely went far enough in the playoffs. Europeans knows him basically from his international play.
Put him on a contender and he likely would have won a few Stanley Cups, scoring some big goals on the way, and perhaps getting Conn Smythe consideration (see international play).

Very low profile off the ice compared to Forsberg and Salming. Sundin is basically never seen in the media, while Forsberg and Salming do are usually seen at least once per week (doing commercials and participating in different tv-programs).
It makes you wonder, had he spent his career in Colorado playing with Sakic, would he be on a level with Forsberg, as opposed to the clear second best Swedish forward of our time.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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It makes you wonder, had he spent his career in Colorado playing with Sakic, would he be on a level with Forsberg, as opposed to the clear second best Swedish forward of our time.

in this scenario, does quebec trade forsberg to toronto for wendel clark and sylvain lefebvre instead?
 
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ITM

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Being too young + living in Sweden, I never saw Sundin playing in the NHL. Of course I saw him playing for Sweden and he was one of our best players, but... he was nowhere near Peter Forsberg.

Forsberg could completely dominate a game regardless of competition. Mats Sundin never did that. On his plus side he was rarely injured and very consistent (apart from Belarus in 2002 olympics).

So, how good was he? Was he ever dominant in the NHL or was he (as his stats suggest) Mr Consistent? Peak wise how would you rank him against other Swedish forwards of the era such as Renberg, Alfredsson and Markus Näslund?

In the rare event this point hasn't been addressed, I would say Sundin most certainly could completely dominate a game. The difference might have been the surrounding talent to offset the amount of pressure Sundin absorbed. One can only say Forsberg was more consistently dominant. One can't (shouldn't?) say Sundin wasn't dominant.

Saw an earlier comment pair the difference by noting the similarities when playing together on Team Sweden. An argument including Lidstrom, Forsberg, Sundin wouldn't be a misplaced one with respect to most talented Swedish player, accolades aside.

Yeah, Sundin was something else.
 

plusandminus

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Here are Mats Sundin's scoring finishes within his team, during his years in QUE and TOR.

Example:
In 1995 Sundin (age 23) led Tor in RS (regular season) goals with 23, where highest scoring teammate had 22. He finished 3nd in RS assists, and 1st in RS pts with 47 pts, where highest scoring teammate had 32. He also led his team in the playoffs in both goals and pts, with 5 goals (highest teammate 3) and 9 points (highest teammate 6 pts). He was -5 during RS, where the "team average" (including Sundin) was -22.

Playing for TOR:
............goals......ass....points.......playoff goals and pts....+/-....comment.
1995(23): 1st (23/22), 3rd ,1st (47/32), 1st (5/3), 1st ( 9/ 6), - 5(-22)
1996(24): 2nd (33/35), 1st ,1st (83/72), 2nd (3/4), 4th ( 4/ 8), + 8(-19) 32yo D.Gilmour on team
1997(25): 1st (41/30), 1st ,1st (94/60), ........., ..........., + 6(-35)
1998(26): 1st (33/21), 1st ,1st (74/47), ........., ..........., - 3(-36)
1999(27): 2nd (31/37), 1st ,1st (83/73), 1st (8/6), 1st (16/12), +22(+47)
2000(28): 1st (32/29), 1st ,1st (73/63), 4th (3/6), 3rd ( 8/ 9), +16(+21) best +/- on team during RS and PO
2001(29): 2nd (28/29), 1st ,1st (74/53), 1st (6/6), 1st (13/11), +15(+21) best on team was +16
2002(30): 1st (41/24), 1st ,1st (80/59), ...mostly injured....., + 6(+37) outscored 32yo Mogilny
2003(31): 1st (37/32), 4th ,2nd (72/79), 5th (1/5), 2nd ( 4/ 7), + 2(+27) missed 9 gp, 33yo Mogilny 79 pts
2004(32): 1st (31/28), 1st ,1st (75/53), 2nd (4/6), 1st ( 9/ 6), +11(+25)
2006(34): 1st (31/28), 3rd ,1st (78/68), ........., ..........., + 7(-21) missed 12 gp
2007(35): 1st (27/24), 1st, 1st (75/58), ........., ..........., - 2(- 7)
2008(36): 1st (32/26), 1st ,1st (78/56), ........., ..........., +17(-14) best +/- on team where 2nd was +10


2009 onwards: has TOR even won a single playoff series since Sundin left the team?

RS agerages: 32.3/28.1, 77.5/62.3 --during 12.6 seasons, as I counted 1994-95 as a 60 % season.
RS Totals: 420/365, 976/773,

Sundin's regular season pts compared to highest scoring teammate:
15, 11, 34, 27, 10, 10, 21, 21, -7, 22, 10, 17, 22
Average margin here is 16.4 pts.

Sundin also led TOR in ES points all seasons but in 2002-03 when Mogilny outscored him.

He scored 63 playoff pts. His best seasonal teammate scored 59 pts. So even if he didn't dominate like in the regular season, he still used to lead his team in scoring.


Playing for QUE:
............goals......ass....points.......playoff goals and pts....+/-.......comment.
1991(19): 2nd (23/48), 2nd, 2nd ( 59/109), ........., ..........., -24(-72) 21yo Sakic outstanding
1992(20): 2nd (33/46), 2nd, 2nd ( 76/ 94), ........., ..........., -19(-45) 19yo Nolan 46g
1993(21): 2nd (47/48), 1st, 1st (114/105), 2nd (3/4), 6th ( 4/ 6), +21(+29) +/- 2nd best behind Leschyshin
1994(22): 1st (32/30), 2nd, 2nd ( 85/ 92), ........., ..........., + 1(+ 1)


During 1991-92 it seems Sakic and Nolan played ES together, while Sundin mostly played with Kip Miller.
Sakic assisted on about 22 of Nolan's 46 goals.
Sundin scored 4 unassisted ES goals and 7 ES goals where a single player got an assist.
Nolan always had two players setting him up for his ES goals, except for one unassisted goal. (Still speaking 1991-92.)


Overall total:
17 consecutive seasons as a top-2 goal scorer. 11 times leading goal scorer.
17 consecutive seasons as a top-2 pts scorer. 13 times leading pts scorer.
17 consecutive seasons as a top-2 ES points scorer. 13 times leading ES points scorer
17 consecutive seasons as a top-4 assist scorer. 11 times leading assists scorer.

7 times led TOR in both goals and assists.


There might some minor error, since I did this manually, but likely nothing that affects the general picture.

Disclaimer: The team average +/- is simply the sum of all its players' +/- divided by 5. It's not a perfect formula, or very important. Don't focus much on it as its easy to misunderstand.
For example, Sundin in 1996 was +8. The total +/- for all players on the team, including Sundin, was -96. Because there is usually 5 players on the ice at the same time, and because we don't want every goal against to amount for -5, we divide it by 5. That will get us an an approximate +/- for the team as a whole. I've done this more accurate before. In the example, the team as a whole was -19 (-96 divided by 5). In this case it indicates TOR did much better with Sundin on the ice than without him. Sort of like +8 with him, and -27 without him, resulting in the team total of -19. Again again, do not over interpret this little stat.
 
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joe dirte

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in this scenario, does quebec trade forsberg to toronto for wendel clark and sylvain lefebvre instead?
I dint know. Lets say they dont and sundin, forsberg, sakic, Blake, foote, drury, hejduk, deadmarsh, patrick roy, tanguay, ozolinsh, claude lemieux, mike ricci, owen nolan, are all combinations of his teammates and linemates over the years...

Am i missing anyone? The avs had piles 9f great players over a 5 or 6 year span. Not even including ray bourque.
 

MadLuke

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I dint know. Lets say they dont and sundin, forsberg, sakic, Blake, foote, drury, hejduk, deadmarsh, patrick roy, tanguay, ozolinsh, claude lemieux, mike ricci, owen nolan, are all combinations of his teammates and linemates over the years...

Am i missing anyone? The avs had piles 9f great players over a 5 or 6 year span. Not even including ray bourque.

If they do not trade Sundin there is probably no Lemieux, that was acquired in the 3 team deal and implied Wendel Clark that was acquired by Sundin trade. Without Lemieux they probably do not trade Nolan for Ozolinsh and if they do maybe they keep Deadmarsh instead of getting Blake, there is a lot of what if history without that first trade and all the drafted player obviously shift.
 

joe dirte

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If they do not trade Sundin there is probably no Lemieux, that was acquired in the 3 team deal and implied Wendel Clark that was acquired by Sundin trade. Without Lemieux they probably do not trade Nolan for Ozolinsh and if they do maybe they keep Deadmarsh instead of getting Blake, there is a lot of what if history without that first trade and all the drafted player obviously shift.
Sure we can play waht ifs all we want, but id rather not. Its boring.

They were a well managed team that were smart enough to target and acquire great players. Its not like trading sundin for clark or whatever was the magic move that led them to becoming an elite team. Quite frankly if youre trying to suggest it started a series of events that led tobthem being a great team, you should probably rethink that.
 

MadLuke

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They were a well managed team that were smart enough to target and acquire great players. Its not like trading sundin for clark or whatever was the magic move that led them to becoming an elite team. Quite frankly if youre trying to suggest it started a series of events that led tobthem being a great team, you should probably rethink that.

Was that ever implied in my message, Sundin > Lemieux/Lefevre even for a team with Sakic/Forsberg is not a crazy argument.

You started a possible list asking for feedback on it, a gave the little hindsight on the part that would be different without a Sundin trade.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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I dint know. Lets say they dont and sundin, forsberg, sakic, Blake, foote, drury, hejduk, deadmarsh, patrick roy, tanguay, ozolinsh, claude lemieux, mike ricci, owen nolan, are all combinations of his teammates and linemates over the years...

Am i missing anyone? The avs had piles 9f great players over a 5 or 6 year span. Not even including ray bourque.

asking if sundin would be considered as good as forsberg if they got to play on the same team their whole careers seems... farfetched.

i mean, you're asking sundin to be as good as a guy who led the playoffs in scoring twice and won the MVP and scoring title.

yes, it's possible that sundin's scoring gets a bump from being surrounded many great offensive players, including forsberg. but on the other hand, forsberg has all those same guys to help his stats and, being pretty universally considered the greater offensive talent, would almost certainly get more and better opportunities to score than sundin.
 
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TheAngryHank

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Sundin is often a player I mention who is like this. Probably better than the PPG year after year - even in the dead puck era - that he was. Didn't have the linemates he needed and carried the load a lot in Toronto but was never injured, never took a game off and for the life of me I never understand the flack he sometimes got by the fans. He gave his blood to that team. No, he didn't fight and wasn't overly physical but he used his size for much different things. He was very hard to knock off the puck as well because of his size and reach and such. Part of the reason he had such a good backhand was that he could spread his legs open and protect the puck giving him the opportunity to roof it.

Sundin was not soft by any means, I would consider Matthews soft on the Leafs, and unable (so far) to play when the going got tough. Sundin wasn't a playoff monster, but he was never the reason the Leafs lost. Had a career similar to Mike Modano (styles were different) in that they were consistently very good for a long time. Consistently a top 15-20ish player in the game year after year. I like the above John Tavares comparison too.
Backhand : Didnt he have no curve on his stick?

Matts was super consistent, 80 points in the bank before the season started. He was the C in toronto and was the type of guy that didn’t read the press,which in toronto can't be easy. A player impossible to dislike , like Sakic. I say this as a wings fan during the rivalry era, when Toronto was WC.
 
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plusandminus

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asking if sundin would be considered as good as forsberg if they got to play on the same team their whole careers seems... farfetched.

i mean, you're asking sundin to be as good as a guy who led the playoffs in scoring twice and won the MVP and scoring title.

yes, it's possible that sundin's scoring gets a bump from being surrounded many great offensive players, including forsberg. but on the other hand, forsberg has all those same guys to help his stats and, being pretty universally considered the greater offensive talent, would almost certainly get more and better opportunities to score than sundin.

But Sundin actually did the same things as Forsberg, although he did it for Sweden rather than TOR. He did it over and over. So they actually have played for the same team (Sweden), where Sundin did at least as well as Forsberg. This includes best-on-best tournaments, which actually are quite comparable to the NHL playoffs.
 

The Panther

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Obviously, Forsberg was better than Sundin. However, it's not as big a difference as the NHL-centric view would make some of us think. My understanding is that Sundin has the bigger rep in Sweden. I do think it's fair to point out that, after he left Quebec (incl. 114-point season), Sundin never again was not the sole focus of the opposition's checkers. Forsberg's team, by contrast, was winning Cup Finals with him on the sidelines, a laughably impossible condition to imagine with the Leafs and Sundin.
 

Regal

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But Sundin actually did the same things as Forsberg, although he did it for Sweden rather than TOR. He did it over and over. So they actually have played for the same team (Sweden), where Sundin did at least as well as Forsberg. This includes best-on-best tournaments, which actually are quite comparable to the NHL playoffs.

They are also relatively small sample sizes
 

Yozhik v tumane

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I don’t want to rag on Sundin for being deemed dispensable for the Nordiques or whatever, in other words I don’t think you should discredit his appreciable value because of that trade: but I’m also not sure (how could you be?) the Avs would have won cups if they’d kept Sundin instead of trading for Lemieux. On paper, the Avs with Sakic, Forsberg AND Sundin of course looks even crazier good than they already were in 1996, but knowing what Lemieux meant for the Avs’ cup run in 1996, it’s just hard to say that they made a bad move or something. Lemieux was later involved in the trade that brought over Ray Bourque as well, so I see a lot of wins for a lot of teams with these trades.

Obviously, Forsberg was better than Sundin. However, it's not as big a difference as the NHL-centric view would make some of us think. My understanding is that Sundin has the bigger rep in Sweden. I do think it's fair to point out that, after he left Quebec (incl. 114-point season), Sundin never again was not the sole focus of the opposition's checkers. Forsberg's team, by contrast, was winning Cup Finals with him on the sidelines, a laughably impossible condition to imagine with the Leafs and Sundin.

I think most of us weren’t that dialed into the NHL back then, but we knew Sundin was by far the best player and the leader for the Maple Leafs, and we knew that Forsberg was one of the absolute premiere players in the world if and when he played (it wasn’t even the question of him being healthy, since he usually played — and kicked ass — through injuries). We knew we were in for a treat when Forsberg joined the national team, however, I think that him and Sundin were perceived as similarly great and important. Having both join meant anything but gold was disappointing. As others have pointed out before, it’s highly arguable which of the two was our best performer. Sundin was THE captain, and always relibly a beast, but Foppa brought a degree of sorcery into the equation. As it stands, I think Sundin might get the edge from me based on international tournaments, but Forsberg is probably the player I’ve most enjoyed watching.

I’d say that in Sweden it’s not too controversial a claim that Sundin was our greatest ever player, but it’s probably more reasonable to talk about a big four of Sundin, Forsberg, Lidström and Salming, or maybe a big five with Sven Tumba joining, imo. Sundin was the perennial team leader in the greatest and most successful era for Swedish hockey, Forsberg is the only Swede that has comfortably placed himself in the conversation for best player in the world, Lidström had the greatest career and is the most revered in North America, and Salming and Tumba were legendary trailblazers without whom we’re in a strange, alternate reality where it’s hard to imagine what Swedish hockey even is.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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I don’t want to rag on Sundin for being deemed dispensable for the Nordiques or whatever, in other words I don’t think you should discredit his appreciable value because of that trade: but I’m also not sure (how could you be?) the Avs would have won cups if they’d kept Sundin instead of trading for Lemieux. On paper, the Avs with Sakic, Forsberg AND Sundin of course looks even crazier good than they already were in 1996, but knowing what Lemieux meant for the Avs’ cup run in 1996, it’s just hard to say that they made a bad move or something. Lemieux was later involved in the trade that brought over Ray Bourque as well, so I see a lot of wins for a lot of teams with these trades.

I don't think that's correct.

But Bourque is linked to Sundin in that they were bitter rivals. So many physical battles on the ice for two players that were not known for that kind of play.
 
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Yozhik v tumane

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I don't think that's correct.

But Bourque is linked to Sundin in that they were bitter rivals. So many physical battles on the ice for two players that were not known for that kind of play.

According to Claude Lemieux’s Eliteprospects page:
”1999-11-03 • Traded to the New Jersey Devils with a 2000 1st round pick (David Hale) & a 2000 2nd round pick (Matt DeMarchi) for Brian Rolston & a 2000 1st round pick (later traded to Boston in the Ray Bourque deal: Martin Samuelsson

Rolston played 50 games in Colorado before becoming the key piece in the Bourque acquisition.
 

Jahara

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Sundin was held very high in Sweden since he always performed very good in the national team. He was branded as sort of the last one who was brought up and viewed Three Crowns as the main target for a career.

It was always held against Lidström as being considered a true great in Sweden since he, unlike Sundin, usually never reached the same class in the national team compared to his NHL game. It was probably not until the 2006 Olympics that Lidström changed that.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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But Sundin actually did the same things as Forsberg, although he did it for Sweden rather than TOR. He did it over and over. So they actually have played for the same team (Sweden), where Sundin did at least as well as Forsberg. This includes best-on-best tournaments, which actually are quite comparable to the NHL playoffs.

i guess for me i just never watched sundin and thought, this guy could lead the league in scoring.

but on the other hand, i never thought that about the sedins either so what do i know?
 

vadim sharifijanov

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I don’t want to rag on Sundin for being deemed dispensable for the Nordiques or whatever, in other words I don’t think you should discredit his appreciable value because of that trade: but I’m also not sure (how could you be?) the Avs would have won cups if they’d kept Sundin instead of trading for Lemieux. On paper, the Avs with Sakic, Forsberg AND Sundin of course looks even crazier good than they already were in 1996, but knowing what Lemieux meant for the Avs’ cup run in 1996, it’s just hard to say that they made a bad move or something. Lemieux was later involved in the trade that brought over Ray Bourque as well, so I see a lot of wins for a lot of teams with these trades.

to flesh this out and go way off into what if land, what the nordiques got from the sundin trade were absolutely crucial to them turning from basically the 2020 oilers into the team they became.

wendel clark reportedly really rubbed off on joe sakic. and '95 was the year sakic went from just another turgeon-type '90s star scoring center to a warrior and legitimately one of the best players in the league.

sylvain lefebvre was absolutely crucial. big steady defenceman in his prime with oodles of playoff experience.

claude lemieux contributed so much knowhow to that young core and added 40 goals in a dirty work role that made forsberg and kamensky's life so much easier.

lemieux there (and scott young on the top line) also made nolan expendable as a top six RW, which is how they got the PMD they absolutely needed.

i'm not saying there weren't other ways to get all those things, but all of that was absolutely crucial. can you imagine the '96 blueline without lefebvre and ozolinsh? that's their best defensive defenceman and best offensive defenceman.

(and in the long run, in addition lemieux > rolston > bourque, one of the young guys from the clark trade, landon wilson, was eventually traded to boston for the late first round pick that became robyn regehr, who was then traded to rent theo fleury. that trade string didn't end with a cup, but a run to game seven of the WCF is not nothing.)

((and in the long long run, man does the clark/sundin have tentacles: the draft pick they traded down on in that trade was jeff kealty, who played all four years of college and didn't sign so the avs got a compensatory second round pick that they used to take... steve moore))
 
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plusandminus

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i guess for me i just never watched sundin and thought, this guy could lead the league in scoring.

but on the other hand, i never thought that about the sedins either so what do i know?

Good points.
Another example might be Markus Näslund, who internationally (except for the World Junior championship playing with Peter Forsberg and a young Niklas Sundström) never reached Sundin's heights. I think at least 9 out of 10 Swedes would say Sundin was the far superior player.

I don't remember every tournament the Sedins played. They dominated hugely during a couple of World Championships, where many of the best players were missing due to playing Stanley Cup. Otherwise I don't remember them being nearly as good as Sundin in best-on-best tournaments.

To me, Sundin is probably the most "contradictory" player, just because his time in TOR didn't statistically correlate to his play in other environments. (Note also my post yesterday about him. For 17 straight seasons, he was top-2 in goals and points within the NHL team he played for. 11 times he was leading goal scorer, and 13 times leading points scorer, often by large margins. Usually good +/- too, compared to teammates.)

Something that might be forgotten is that Sundin also did very well as a winger, perhaps even better (at least offensively?).
 

MXD

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Good points.
Another example might be Markus Näslund, who internationally (except for the World Junior championship playing with Peter Forsberg and a young Niklas Sundström) never reached Sundin's heights. I think at least 9 out of 10 Swedes would say Sundin was the far superior player.

I hope 10 out of 10 North Americans would say Sundin is the far superior player...
 

67 others

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Malkin is definitely on a different tier, but when you look at Thornton's playoff record, is he really that much higher than Sundin?
Was Sundin some world beater in the playoffs? not to any degree that compares to their careers.

Thornton's playoffs are usually a weak point when comparing him to other hall of famers, but Sundin's best playoffs are 13 points in 11 games and 16 points in 17 games. And he never went to the finals in his career despite the leafs spending a lot of money before the cap era to stack them. He was good but he wasn't exactly a Conn Smythe winning playoff hero. Conn Smythe winning playoff heroes have a stronger case vs Thornton. Sundin doesn't and isn't.

Neither player was a Selke winner either, despite neither being what I could call a liability.

Sundin aside from his 2nd in goals year and 10th in assists year did what exactly to merit being compared to Thornton? He was never top 10 in points(Thornton was 6 times and was top 5 four of those 6 times). Nobody ever looked at Sundin and said "this man has an argument for being the best player in the world right now". Thornton did that a few times.

Thornton was for 4 years one of the top players in the league. Art Ross, hart, several Hart nominations, turned average teammates into world beaters as evidenced by their results away from him. Regularly outscored his teammates by 30-40 points. Spent a lot of his prime with the best offensive defensemen available on the sharks being 30-40 point guys Matt Carle, Tom Preising, Craig Rivet. People forget that Dan Boyle arrives as Thornton was exiting his prime at age 30 despite still playing at a high level for years.

Despite all that, Thornton is on a short list of highest scoring players of all time despite the low scoring era he played in. 7th all time in assists. Everyone on the point list above him other than Howe played a significant portion of their careers in the high flying offense era. If he started his career in 1980, its entirely likely his end points would be around 1900 given his long consistency. And its entirely likely only Gretzky would be above him in assist totals. 1089 assists and 7th all time. Francis is 2nd to Gretzky with 1249. Thornton would have easily been 2nd in assists if he started in 1980. He missed a year smack in the middle of his prime to lockout. He followed that lockout year with back to back 90+ assist seasons. Only 3 players have done that. Gretzky and Lemieux being the other 2 .

Sundin isn't in the same category. He is significantly below despite being nearly as consistent.
 
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